Genetics Changing Understanding Of 'Race'?

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Put up my own DNA Genotype Results in post #190...

http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/140019037/

(Fixed & Updated)

And it may not be how you think.

From the lengthy New York Times Op-Ed piece (for the post-literate TL;DR era crowd) from Harvard geneticist David Reich, full details in the hyperlink below. Anyone who studies or works in human genetics, molecular biology or bio-chemistry has known this but it's a rather controversial and emotive subject to speak about publicly even on a scientific level. It's a fact that any two humans are 99.9% genetically identical, but that's kind of misleading in a way considering the 0.1% accounts for some three million differences across the genome with 20,000 of them being protein coding genes.

It's rather easy to see why a prolific evolutionary biologist like Jerry Coyne opts to use the term 'ethnic groups' when he writes about "race" even though it's yet another relative social construct which doesn't quite match, but at least with that there actually are loose associations to be made such as with Y-DNA haplogroups and specific SNP's although it's by no means some kind of rule. Every country in Europe has several prominent groups within its own population, but at the same time you could look at me and guess (accurately) that I'm not O-M175, for instance.

How Genetics Is Changing Our Understanding Of 'Race'

(Excerpt)

In this way, a consensus was established that among human populations there are no differences large enough to support the concept of “biological race.” Instead, it was argued, race is a “social construct,” a way of categorizing people that changes over time and across countries. It is true that race is a social construct. It is also true, as Dr. Lewontin wrote, that human populations “are remarkably similar to each other” from a genetic point of view.

But over the years this consensus has morphed, seemingly without questioning, into an orthodoxy. The orthodoxy maintains that the average genetic differences among people grouped according to today’s racial terms are so trivial when it comes to any meaningful biological traits that those differences can be ignored.

The orthodoxy goes further, holding that we should be anxious about any research into genetic differences among populations. The concern is that such research, no matter how well-intentioned, is located on a slippery slope that leads to the kinds of pseudoscientific arguments about biological difference that were used in the past to try to justify the slave trade, the eugenics movement and the Nazis’ murder of six million Jews. I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries could be misused to justify racism.

As a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.”

Groundbreaking advances in DNA sequencing technology have been made over the last two decades. These advances enable us to measure with exquisite accuracy what fraction of an individual’s genetic ancestry traces back to, say, West Africa 500 years ago - before the mixing in the Americas of the West African and European gene pools that were almost completely isolated for the last 70,000 years. With the help of these tools, we are learning that while race may be a social construct, differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate to many of today’s racial constructs are real.

Recent genetic studies have demonstrated differences across populations not just in the genetic determinants of simple traits such as skin color, but also in more complex traits like bodily dimensions and susceptibility to diseases. For example, we now know that genetic factors help explain why northern Europeans are taller on average than southern Europeans, why multiple sclerosis is more common in European-Americans than in African-Americans, and why the reverse is true for end-stage kidney disease.

I am worried that well-meaning people who deny the possibility of substantial biological differences among human populations are digging themselves into an indefensible position, one that will not survive the onslaught of science. I am also worried that whatever discoveries are made - and we truly have no idea yet what they will be - will be cited as “scientific proof” that racist prejudices and agendas have been correct all along, and that those well-meaning people will not understand the science well enough to push back against these claims.

This is why it is important, even urgent, that we develop a candid and scientifically up-to-date way of discussing any such differences, instead of sticking our heads in the sand and being caught unprepared when they are found.


Mod Note: This forum is not a platform for IQ/Biological racism, which is a violation of forum guidelines. Discussing science is one thing, claiming that science supports racism is another. If you feel like you're crossing a line, you probably are. Don't post it.
 
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Race is not a thing. It’s bullshit made up by lazy minds. It’s just complete fiction.

Ethnic group is a better way to define people but it’s still a loose application.

We need a better way to define similar groups of people on a genetic level.
 
Are White people, like, totally the best yet?

What is white? Benjamin Franklin had this own ideas.

Benjamin Franklin was alarmed by the influx of German immigrants to Pennsylvania. The German immigrants were lacking in a liberal political tradition, the English language, and English culture. In Paragraph 23 of the essay "Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries", Franklin wrote:

"Why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our settlements, and by herding together establish their languages and manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our language or customs, any more than they can acquire our complexion?"

Emerson Professor John Trimbur finds that Franklin’s main concern over the growth of unassimilated Germans is the threat to English culture and language. This becomes racial when Franklin concocts categories of his own invention to deny that Germans are whites. Franklin favored immigration of Anglo-Saxons, who, according to Ormond Seavey, he identifies as the only "White People" among the various peoples of the world. Such views have been condemned as racist in more recent literature.
 
Fucking cliffs?

What the hell is wrong with you?

Why wouldn't you post "TL;DR"? That was both (a) the appropriate and hilarious response to an OP that condescended about people saying "TL;DR," and (b) an accurate representation of your questions/comment.

Disappointed.
 
Don't expect there to be any sort of a reasonable discussion about the subject of "race" and biology on these forums. Anything remotely "controversial" gets deleted, and threatened with a ban.

Just say the token virtue-signaling stuff and move on.
 
Fucking cliffs?

- Genetics differences between groups exist.
- Geneticists are afraid of right wingers and left wingers politicizing their discoveries.
- Most human classifications are social in nature.
 
The majority of the world knows race is real. I dont care what you guys think in the west
 
So black people are tall because they're black and white people are bad at dancing because they're white.

Got it.
 
- Genetics differences between groups exist.
- Geneticists are afraid of right wingers and left wingers politicizing their discoveries.
- Most human classifications are social in nature.

This thread will go to shit. Probably more from people on the left screaming nazi and stuff. I have rarely encountered such suppose right wingers on internet. Typically it seems people just say east asians are smartest and then go on about people wanting there own ethnostate countries. That fine with me just leave me alone and dont ´regime´change my country which is something US foreign policy love to do to 3rd world nations. Dont tell others how to live and shit eithr
 
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So genetic health factors related to survival are insignificant? Primitively speaking, I'd think that's a perfectly acceptable reason to be prejudiced.
 
What the hell is wrong with you?

Why wouldn't you post "TL;DR"? That was both (a) the appropriate and hilarious response to an OP that condescended about people saying "TL;DR," and (b) an accurate representation of your questions/comment.

Disappointed.
1.Because, I didn't fucking read the OP you crazy fuck.
2. See #1, bitch.
 
Don't expect there to be any sort of a reasonable discussion about the subject of "race" and biology on these forums. Anything remotely "controversial" gets deleted, and threatened with a ban.

Just say the token virtue-signaling stuff and move on.

Soooo, a full page in and no one has reacted hostilely or indignantly, yet you had to get jump on this chance to whine. In the last month, we've literally had posters make threads based on racial slurs and on fantasies about killing Muslims and not even get a card, yet your "woe is me, everyone is too sensitive for the expansiveness of my intellectual acumen" belly aching persists.

Also, good job not making any actual contribution to the topic of race and biology, ironically while deriding everyone else's inability to do so. And, additionally, great job of making posters who defend you as being a productive poster (@Jack V Savage ) look like putzes.
 
- Genetics differences between groups exist.
- Geneticists are afraid of right wingers and left wingers politicizing their discoveries.
- Most human classifications are social in nature.
Thank you sir! Finally, someone with people skills.
 
Soooo, a full page in and no one has reacted hostilely or indignantly, yet you had to get jump on this chance to whine. In the last month, we've literally had posters make threads based on racial slurs and on fantasies about killing Muslims and not even get a card, yet your "woe is me, everyone is too sensitive for the expansiveness of my intellectual acumen" belly aching persists.

Also, good job not making any actual contribution to the topic of race and biology, ironically while deriding everyone else's inability to do so. And, additionally, great job of making posters who defend you as being a productive poster (@Jack V Savage ) look like putzes.

You take it too personally.

I'm not criticizing the posts made in this thread, that's something you've come up with on your own. But I just had a whole plethora of posts, backed by links to scientific studies, deleted in the thread about Sam Harris and Vox, and caught a warning by the mods for it, so just giving heads up to anyone who might want to invest their time into this thread. Chances are that there's not going to be much to discuss, when only one side of the argument can be presented.

Better to just move onto subjects that can actually be debated here without the risk of censorship.
 
What the hell is wrong with you?

Why wouldn't you post "TL;DR"? That was both (a) the appropriate and hilarious response to an OP that condescended about people saying "TL;DR," and (b) an accurate representation of your questions/comment.

Disappointed.

It's a very informative article if you're someone who isn't particularly well versed in the subject (which would be the majority of this forum), written by a renowned Harvard geneticist. He has no agenda or ulterior motive aside from the below.

Don't expect there to be any sort of a reasonable discussion about the subject of "race" and biology on these forums. Anything remotely "controversial" gets deleted, and threatened with a ban.

Just say the token virtue-signaling stuff and move on.

NYMag: Denying Genetics Isn't Shutting Down Racism, It's Fueling It
 
You take it too personally.

I'm not criticizing the posts made in this thread, that's something you've come up with on your own. But I just had a whole plethora of posts, backed by links to scientific studies, deleted in the thread about Sam Harris and Vox, and caught a warning by the mods for it, so just giving heads up to anyone who might want to invest their time into this thread. Chances are that there's not going to be much to discuss, when only one side of the argument can be presented.

Better to just move onto subjects that can actually be debated here without the risk of censorship.

I have not personally seen any substantive posts unjustifiably deleted, except when they are adjacent to narrow(ly gross) topics like :eek::eek::eek::eek:philia.

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of posts every week from right-wingers moaning about the liberal bias of the moderators here, despite it being based on fuck-all evidence. Yet it just slowly becomes the narrative and is used to push out actual discourse just like the ridiculous "giant media corporations ran by rich white capitalists are actually leftist SJW communist propaganda machines" shit.
 
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