Game of Thrones S07E07 Discussion Thread: FinallyJumpedTheDragon (No Spoilers/Leaks)

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

Irresponsible is right. And then Isaac reiterated it in the Inside the Episode segment so you know thats what D&D are selling. I say that's all well and good they loved one another, but they fucked up big time and to try to make it like Robert's Rebellion was fought on a lie makes no sense. Robert's Rebellion was fought for valid reasons that are just as valid if Lyanna willingly went along with Rhaegar.

Luckily it seems Snow >> his old man. And I hope next season they don't disrespect Ned who was in virtually every way that counts a father to Jon.

Could it have been that, while Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, R kept L as a prisoner, at least unable to reach her family (maybe even unaware of what was going on)?
And if so, why?

I can't fathom how they could spin Brandon and Lord Rickon's deaths tho. And then Rhaegar still takes up arms against them (Ned and Robert) instead of sending a raven or some shit saying his father was way the fuck out of line and he'll help them over throw him.


Obviously there's still going to be a huge beef between Rhaegar and Robert at that point, but at least it shows Rhaegars legit loyalty to Lyanna and Ned.


But nope.


'Honey, brb, going to go to war with your entire family because my father killed your father and brother because they thought I kidnapped you'


How's this going to work lol? Characters on both sides of this who were around when it happened know about and agree on these details. What are D&D gonna do? 'Nope guys, literally everyone who lived thru it on both sides didn't know what was going on'


Lol, makes no fucking sense at all.

I think the short answer is that Rhaegar was a fucking asshole.

1. He fucking ditched his wife and kids.

2. He dishonourably alopes with Lyanna when:

A) she's betrothed to Robert;
B) he's married;
C) he never consulted her family

3) after his father kills his in-laws (Brandon and Rickon Stark) he does seemingly nothing at all to de-escalate the situation, and takes up arms against Ned and Robert

4) he left sent half the bloody Kingsguard to the Tower of Joy but left no one to watch over his wife and their kids

So yeah, Rhaegar is a fucking prick.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I think the Kingsguard standing around is more of a directing issue. They've always done this and it's probably just to make for better TV.

Euron went right up to Dany well she was sitting down and even though Jorah grabbed the handle to his sword, I doubt he would have been fast enough to stop Euron from pulling out a dagger and stabbing Dany.

Or when Dany had the meeting with the 3 mercenary assassins. They had a clear shot at her well Selmy and Jorah stood at her side.

Kingsguards getting in the way would take away from the reaction of the character.

Yeah, totally.
I don't believe at all that the Mountain doing jackshit was because he's "a slow zombie" now. That's just how the scene was written to provide maximum "oh shit" moments. I gurantee he'll be moving just fine whenever he actually gets his fight against the Hound

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Its classic LF; he takes something he wants (the Starks and Lannisters fighting) and turns it into your idea:
I imagine: Littlefinger: "Sir Jaime, I can't imagine what befell the Stark boy, or what he'll say when he wakes up, perhaps it would be a mercy to see that he doesn't"
Jaimie: "take care of it".


This is a very good argument and rings pretty true. You are probably right. Another reason I think you may be right is Jaimie wouldn't have agreed to it if he thought it could come back to him. Even the least intelligent Lannister would be able to see LF set them up by supplying a Valaryian dagger that once belonged to Tyrion. Of course, we have to consider the assassin didn't intend on getting caught, right?


Jaimie pushed a young boy out a window, with the intent of killing him, to protect his and Cersei's secret. Why wouldn't he have somebody finish the job for the same reason?
Jaimie also killed his own cousin to escape prison and would do just about anything to keep laying with his sister. People who say Cersei is the best character aren't paying attention to Jaimie. While Tyrion is my favorite Lannister, Jaimie is the most complex. Cersei is the most one dimensional.

I agree with this.
I think Jamie hasnt been getting enough attention in recent seasons though. He really is a complex character, but after he came back to King's Landing with Brienne, they kind of stopped delving into his character as they had before.
Tyrion has always been my favorite character, but like Jamie, he's not the same in these later seasons.
Cersei only has 1 note, but she plays it so good and is always on key.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

So only Jon, Arya, Jamie, Brienne, and Sam have Valyrian steel ?
I wonder who ends up using these weapons, or if the owners will actually be the ones putting them to use.
Sam and Arya are of course not going to be on the battlefield fighting wights and WWs, and I have a hard time picturing Jamie and Brienne on the battlefield as well for some reason..

And the fact that Jamie and Brienne's swords are actually Ned's sword should be brought up shortly....that should be awkwardddddddd..

 

[Capt Lunatic]

Jaime's Cousin: Why do I have to die? I could just lay on the ground and twitch.
Jaime: Look, I'm sorry about this but I am season 2 Jaime.
Jaime's Cousin: Oh yeah.

 

[FyrFytr998]

Luckily it seems Snow >> his old man. And I hope next season they don't disrespect Ned who was in virtually every way that counts a father to Jon.

You would hope so after the big "You are a Stark and a Greyjoy" speech to Theon.

What if Robert was told, but he didn't say anything because he was such an asshole?

This would certainly help explain things a smidge. It's funny now that the reveal has set in with viewers, all the real questions bubble to the top, exposing even more plot holes. Maybe Bran's whole "rebellion on a lie" statement included him seeing something else not shown. Who knows at this point? They got a year and change to fix it.

 

[LEWIS540]

holy shit at Roberts rebellion being fought on a lie and Aegon sand being Dornish.

kit harington must do a lot of glute exercises

Basically Rhaegar and Lyanna caused the death of 1000s because they lacked honour and couldn't keep their genitals in their pants.

 

[LEWIS540]

Luckily it seems Snow >> his old man. And I hope next season they don't disrespect Ned who was in virtually every way that counts a father to Jon.

.....by lying to him his entire life and making him feel so isolated that he felt forced to join the Night's Watch. I'm sure Ned had the best of intentions but as always his decision making was questionable.

 

[urnotaslave23]

You would hope so after the big "You are a Stark and a Greyjoy" speech to Theon.



This would certainly help explain things a smidge. It's funny now that the reveal has set in with viewers, all the real questions bubble to the top, exposing even more plot holes. Maybe Bran's whole "rebellion on a lie" statement included him seeing something else not shown. Who knows at this point? They got a year and change to fix it.

What if Robert walked in on them and was like wtf dudes? Then they're all like we're in love Robert, be happy for us! Then he's all NO! This is war! But I'll give you a head start. Then he sat and contemplated what it was gonna be like to sit on the Iron Throne for a bit and that's when he went and told all his bros she was kidnapped, so he didn't look like a cuck.

 

[ufcfan4]

Dead must not harm dead.

Caesar approves

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

What if Robert was told, but he didn't say anything because he was such an asshole?

There would have been no time for Robert to tell Ned's brother and father anyway. Brandon was already en route to meet up with his fathers wedding party when all this went down. From there, Brandon found out and changed course for KL where he and a few others were arrested for plotting to kill the Prince. His father was sent for to answer for his sons crimes.


Even if D&D try to pull that bs I don't see how they can tie it all together in a way that makes Robert look like a lier and the one who started the whole thing. Robert didn't abduct Lyanna, and he didn't start killing Neds family -he also didn't want the Iron Throne, he wanted Ned to claim it but Ned refused.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

What if Robert walked in on them and was like wtf dudes? Then they're all like we're in love Robert, be happy for us! Then he's all NO! This is war! But I'll give you a head start. Then he sat and contemplated what it was gonna be like to sit on the Iron Throne for a bit and that's when he went and told all his bros she was kidnapped, so he didn't look like a cuck.

Robert didn't want the throne -he wanted Ned to be the king, Ned refused once they were in the throne room after the war was over.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

There would have been no time for Robert to tell Ned's brother and father anyway. Brandon was already en route to meet up with his fathers wedding party when all this went down. From there, Brandon found out and changed course for KL where he and a few others were arrested for plotting to kill the Prince. His father was sent for to answer for his sons crimes.


Even if D&D try to pull that bs I don't see how they can tie it all together in a way that makes Robert look like a lier and the one who started the whole thing. Robert didn't abduct Lyanna, and he didn't start killing Neds family -he also didn't want the Iron Throne, he wanted Ned to claim it but Ned refused.

@Magooglie's link has a super cool theory.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

@Magooglie's link has a super cool theory.

The problem is Ned's family getting murked, and Rhaegar taking up arms against Robert after everything went down.


Another big hole is that Robert never wanted to be king. He wants Ned to do it and Ned refuses to.


I don't see how that theory explains all of this away to flip this back on Robert and Ned (because ultimately, that's what you'd have to do to make the blame portion work).

 

[MikeMcMann]

Basically Rhaegar and Lyanna caused the death of 1000s because they lacked honour and couldn't keep their genitals in their pants.

History would certainly support the idea of many family conflicts being started over illicit affairs or one man stealing the S.O of another.

 

[Clear Winner]

I think the short answer is that Rhaegar was a fucking asshole.

1. He fucking ditched his wife and kids.

2. He dishonourably alopes with Lyanna when:

A) she's betrothed to Robert;
B) he's married;
C) he never consulted her family

3) after his father kills his in-laws (Brandon and Rickon Stark) he does seemingly nothing at all to de-escalate the situation, and takes up arms against Ned and Robert

4) he left sent half the bloody Kingsguard to the Tower of Joy but left no one to watch over his wife and their kids

So yeah, Rhaegar is a fucking prick.

What a geezer!

 

[BVG]

And that right there is where we disagree. It's an incredibly complcated story. It's very indepth.

Oh please.

Is this a good guy or a bad guy?

How about this?

or this?

How about this guy?

or

These are your major players now. And anyone with half a brain can tell good or bad just by how they look. That's right fella! They don't even need to say anything.

Are these cool to watch as eye candy?

The "shades of grey" you are referring too are not difficult to explain through dialogue or small decisions that would easily flag to the audience their motivations. You don't NEED to know their entire backstory. But as of now the show has streamlined into something much more black and white and easily pallatteable for a general audience. It's not nearly as complicated as you are making it out to be.

Do you consider Jamie Lannister and Bronn to be clearly defined Good Guys? What about the Hound? Or Jon Snow who is having an incestuous relationship with his aunt who herself is the product of incest and has to be reigned in by her advisors from either feeding people to her dragons, launching her dragons at densely populated areas or using her dragons to murder unarmed people who won't submit to her?

These are all now small side players behind the general movie arc which will be; kill the white walkers and their king, kill cersei and take the crown.

That's it. That's the arc. All of the other small side stuff is there but it doesn't impact the overall story which is simple. If a person wants to back track before watching the movie to get every side character's motivations like;

"why does that one guy with the burnt face want to kill that big frankenstien looking thing that guards the evil queen?"

Well the simple explination without backstory is;
"because he's her body guard"

The more expansed explination with backstory is;
"because that's his brother and when they were younger he burnt the hound's face"

The point is that the overall story arc is simple and easily digested without needing to know everyone's motivations or backstory.

- kill the undead army
- kill cersei take the crown, live happily ever after

 

[BVG]

Ya and then when we get something like Jaime killing Cersei only to take his face off showing that it's really Arya.. You'll really enjoy explaining to your friends what the fuck is going on.

And why are you so sure that the last episode will still even have White Walkers? Maybe they get defeated in episode 5 and it's a completely different issue in the finale like Dany going mad.

You can't expect people to give a shit about Dany going mad or Jorah dying to save her.. This is why your good guy vs bad guy logic makes no sense. That's never been G.O.T.

Putting it in the theatres only is fucking stupid. Got any more dumb ass reasons to argue against this?

AMG...you show Arya assassinating some small person using the mask trick early on.

Holy fuck how hard was it to solve that cunundrum!

AMG you have some small supposition scene explaining why Danny goes mad! It's never been done before wtf!

Here's an example of a great supposition scene;



The only reason this was put into the movie was to detail to the audience the sequence of events that will happen when the ship actually DOES sink during the climax of the movie.

It's called FORESHADOWING And it is used ALL THE FUCKING TIME.



Now please don't come back here and argue that I am suggesting they do a cg simulatuion of how or why Danny goes mad or Arya uses those masks (because you are that fucking stupid I seriously think this is what you are going to do)...I'm simply suggesting that you explain MAJOR PLOT DEVICES early on in the film, subtly before it actually plays out later on so the audience knows what's going on and doesn't get lost.

It's like you've never watched movies before...You havn't a clue what you are watching or how they are telling a story.

Christ almighty.

You've yet to give me one damn good reason as to why the finale couln't be a summer block buster smash, allowing the producers of GOT to take ALL the money by charging it's large ass audience TWICE...

 

[LuchaBear]

AMG...you show Arya assassinating some small person using the mask trick early on.

Holy fuck how hard was it to solve that cunundrum!

AMG you have some small supposition scene explaining why Danny goes mad! It's never been done before wtf!

Here's an example of a great supposition scene;



The only reason this was put into the movie was to detail to the audience the sequence of events that will happen when the ship actually DOES sink during the climax of the movie.

It's called FORESHADOWING And it is used ALL THE FUCKING TIME.



Now please don't come back here and argue that I am suggesting they do a cg simulatuion of how or why Danny goes mad or Arya uses those masks (because you are that fucking stupid I seriously think this is what you are going to do)...I'm simply suggesting that you explain MAJOR PLOT DEVICES early on in the film, subtly before it actually plays out later on so the audience knows what's going on and doesn't get lost.

It's like you've never watched movies before...You havn't a clue what you are watching or how they are telling a story.

Christ almighty.

You've yet to give me one damn good reason as to why the finale couln't be a summer block buster smash, allowing the producers of GOT to take ALL the money by charging it's large ass audience TWICE...

Remember when you said I was the one in the minority?





I already gave you my reasons and so did the HBO boss. You're arguing for a cash out when nobody but you wants that casual feeding garbage.

 

[LuchaBear]

Oh please.

Is this a good guy or a bad guy?

How about this?

or this?

How about this guy?

or

These are your major players now. And anyone with half a brain can tell good or bad just by how they look. That's right fella! They don't even need to say anything.

Are these cool to watch as eye candy?

The "shades of grey" you are referring too are not difficult to explain through dialogue or small decisions that would easily flag to the audience their motivations. You don't NEED to know their entire backstory. But as of now the show has streamlined into something much more black and white and easily pallatteable for a general audience. It's not nearly as complicated as you are making it out to be.



These are all now small side players behind the general movie arc which will be; kill the white walkers and their king, kill cersei and take the crown.

That's it. That's the arc. All of the other small side stuff is there but it doesn't impact the overall story which is simple. If a person wants to back track before watching the movie to get every side character's motivations like;

"why does that one guy with the burnt face want to kill that big frankenstien looking thing that guards the evil queen?"

Well the simple explination without backstory is;
"because he's her body guard"

The more expansed explination with backstory is;
"because that's his brother and when they were younger he burnt the hound's face"

The point is that the overall story arc is simple and easily digested without needing to know everyone's motivations or backstory.

- kill the undead army
- kill cersei take the crown, live happily ever after

Again, you're still assuming the last episode is Good guys vs White Walkers. Do you have any proof that they aren't going to all die in episode 5?

No you don't