FREESTYLE vs FOLKSTYLE wrestling in UFC...why freestyle DOMINATES in UFC AND wrestling competition

[-guerilla-]

One of the more juvenile Concepts in fight Sports is that someone must be an accomplished fighter in order to be a competent trainer and or produce world champions to be a competent trainer

The average Layman simply cannot accept the fact that the best fighters rarely make the best coaches and stories like the Karate Kid don't really happen in real life

In fact its one of the larger fallacies in Combat Sports

"Cus D’Amato, the renown mentor and trainer of Mike Tyson (who my friend and many boxing fans around the world adore) had only one amateur fight – which he lost"

"Cus had a brief career as an amateur boxer, boxing as a featherweight and lightweight, but was unable to get a professional license because of an eye injury he had suffered in a street fight.[5] This was documented in the biographic novel Confusing The Enemy"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

Another world class trainer who never fought himslef was Angelo Mirena...

"Angelo Dundee (born Angelo Mirena; August 30, 1921 – February 1, 2012) was a 20th century American boxing trainer and cornerman. Internationally known for his work with Muhammad Ali (1960–1981), he also worked with 15 other world boxing champions, including Sugar Ray Leonard, José Nápoles, George Foreman, George Scott, Jimmy Ellis, Carmen Basilio, Luis Manuel Rodríguez and Willie Pastrano"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee

 

[-guerilla-]

Zero state champions
Zero college wrestlers
Zero state records
One of the worst wrestling states in the country
Zero personal accomplishments in wrestling

You're a fraud

How do YOU know i never "produced" college wrestlers?

# lashing out
# cry for help

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

One of the more juvenile Concepts in fight Sports is that someone must be an accomplished fighter in order to be a competent trainer and or produce world champions to be a competent trainer

The average Layman simply cannot accept the fact that the best fighters rarely make the best coaches and stories like the Karate Kid don't really happen in real life

In fact its one of the larger fallacies in Combat Sports

"Cus D’Amato, the renown mentor and trainer of Mike Tyson (who my friend and many boxing fans around the world adore) had only one amateur fight – which he lost"

"Cus had a brief career as an amateur boxer, boxing as a featherweight and lightweight, but was unable to get a professional license because of an eye injury he had suffered in a street fight.[5] This was documented in the biographic novel Confusing The Enemy"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

Another world class trainer who never fought himslef was Angelo Mirena...

"Angelo Dundee (born Angelo Mirena; August 30, 1921 – February 1, 2012) was a 20th century American boxing trainer and cornerman. Internationally known for his work with Muhammad Ali (1960–1981), he also worked with 15 other world boxing champions, including Sugar Ray Leonard, José Nápoles, George Foreman, George Scott, Jimmy Ellis, Carmen Basilio, Luis Manuel Rodríguez and Willie Pastrano"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee

Lol those guys have actual accomplished people they trained. You have NONE

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

How do YOU know i never "produced" college wrestlers?

# lashing out
# cry for help

You've said as much. Also I'm assuming you got team usa folkstyle team winning zero medals this week at worlds?

 

[HuskySamoan]

Khabib has been training freestyle dagestani wrestling his whole life. Pure sambo guys dont wrestle like that. Look at fedor. Fedor is pure sambo. Mark coleman easily outwrestled fedor. Fedor just had way more tricks up his sleeve and was a complete grappler.

Fedor isn't pure Sambo, he was a high level Judo practitioner that crossed over into Sambo. Sambo isn't directly translatable when it comes to getting takedowns to MMA either because they wear Gis.

Also fucking Khabib uses the fence like a motherfucker for his sets up and takedowns. That doesn't exist in Freestyle wrestling, he did cadet level wrestling in Dagestan and is Judo blackbelt, his highest pedigree is definitely in Sambo outside of MMA though.

 

[-guerilla-]

You've said as much. Also I'm assuming you got team usa folkstyle team winning zero medals this week at worlds?

I can barely understand your monkey ass writing style

here's a photo than might help the synopsis of the concept for you

 

[TallGHunter]

How do YOU know i never "produced" college wrestlers?

# lashing out
# cry for help

I'll take the easy one; because if you had done anything we would never had heard the last of it.
Tell us again how you went ten years of competitive wrestling and you never lost a match, (or that you never left your garage and opponents were by invitation only).

 

[kflo]

Fujita versus Kerr
is a perfect example of how American wrestlers are no good at throwing knees and are at a disadvantage versus the Superior takedowns of freestyle in MMA

people who don't understand soccer kick MMA think if you make knees to a grounded opponent legal wrestlers will be advantaged

what they don't realize is that it takes decades to learn to throw effective knees especially on the ground and that's not something American wrestlers are just going to "pick up" rather it wildly benefits than knee and kick Specialists of Russia Latin America and Asia and negatively impacted the American wrestler

This fight also illistrates how Freestyle Wrestling has Superior takedowns and even ground control

freestyle expert Fujita dominates folk style expert mark kerr with his grappling and takedown technique

Kerr was able to start strong but as soon as Fujita realized that he was a one-trick pony he took advantage of his Superior grappling Style... Freestyle Wrestling

This was a Seminole fight for the UFC's learning curve as they knew exactly what they needed to do to benefit the American wrestler in the future

get rid of FREESTYLE wrestlers and get rid of SOCCERKICKS
Watching the strongest wrestlers in the world fall to soccer kick MMA and freestyle taught the UFC some valuable lessons
these fights were critical in the development of the UFC's "product"
FUJITA KERR
CRO COP RANDALLMAN/ COLEMAN
Vovchanchyn Coleman

Except Kerr took him down with ease and of course was a drug addict who gassed and quit. And of course Kerr was a better freestyle wrestler than Fujita.

Lol at Cro Cop... Reppin freestyle. Of course the best win of randlemans career was Cro Cop.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

I can barely understand your monkey ass writing style

here's a photo than might help the synopsis of the concept for you

View attachment 645419

A judo/sambo throw by a guy who never once competed in a freestyle tournament doesn't make your case. Mr. Zero personal or coaching accomplishments

 

[Osculater]

A chick I banged said that but she was probably turned on by gay porn

 

[Fluffernutter]

One of the more juvenile Concepts in fight Sports is that someone must be an accomplished fighter in order to be a competent trainer and or produce world champions to be a competent trainer

The average Layman simply cannot accept the fact that the best fighters rarely make the best coaches and stories like the Karate Kid don't really happen in real life

In fact its one of the larger fallacies in Combat Sports

"Cus D’Amato, the renown mentor and trainer of Mike Tyson (who my friend and many boxing fans around the world adore) had only one amateur fight – which he lost"

"Cus had a brief career as an amateur boxer, boxing as a featherweight and lightweight, but was unable to get a professional license because of an eye injury he had suffered in a street fight.[5] This was documented in the biographic novel Confusing The Enemy"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

Another world class trainer who never fought himslef was Angelo Mirena...

"Angelo Dundee (born Angelo Mirena; August 30, 1921 – February 1, 2012) was a 20th century American boxing trainer and cornerman. Internationally known for his work with Muhammad Ali (1960–1981), he also worked with 15 other world boxing champions, including Sugar Ray Leonard, José Nápoles, George Foreman, George Scott, Jimmy Ellis, Carmen Basilio, Luis Manuel Rodríguez and Willie Pastrano"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee

Had one fight =/= fought at feather weight and lightweight

 

[NicholasJBasile]

I respectfully disagree-- I love your passion as I come from a wrestling background myself and you make a good argument, but I feel that folkstyle is a significantly dominant style for MMA. The ground control is significantly more applicable imo. We see freestyle guys such as Yoel Romero, Aaron Pico, Arjun Buhler, etc. yield takedowns, but they don't tend to have the top positional control that fighters with a folkstyle background have such as Phil Davis, Kamaru Usman, Gregor Gillespie, etc. There are definitely exceptions, but I believe that evidence suggests that folkstyle is the best base for MMA. Once again, I respect your opinion and feel that it's a matter of perspective and a conversation I too wish was presented more.

 

[-guerilla-]

I'll take the easy one; because if you had done anything we would never had heard the last of it.
Tell us again how you went ten years of competitive wrestling and you never lost a match, (or that you never left your garage and opponents were by invitation only).

no recon=moron

i have never and will never drop a name of my athletes, its unprofessional to use them as my "credentials"

I have already said I lost in:
folkstyle
Judo
BJJ
MMA
AND freestyle

NAGA
SHOOTO
HOOK&SHOOT
multiple MMA promotions
kshaa wrestling
Fila wrestling


[i just won more]

# crushed

now SAY SOMETHING about the thread and try to back away from your discount interrogation attempt

Jack [aka] "sometimesmaybee" greald prestly already crunched my numbers and got educated...ask him to explain my successful coaching career to you

[if your still obsessed with me]

 

[-guerilla-]

Except Kerr took him down with ease and of course was a drug addict who gassed and quit. And of course Kerr was a better freestyle wrestler than Fujita.

Lol at Cro Cop... Reppin freestyle. Of course the best win of randlemans career was Cro Cop.

WOW...ACTUALLY talking about wrestling in MMA rather than me

congrats, i think we have made a break thru

do you think cro cop trained with FOLKSTYLE wrestlers??

LOL

what "disqualifies" somebody as a "wrestler"??

Fujita BEAT kerr with wrestling...freestyle wrestling

randallman scored a lucky PUNCH vs mirko and was DOMINATED in the rematch

 

[-guerilla-]

A judo/sambo throw by a guy who never once competed in a freestyle tournament doesn't make your case. Mr. Zero personal or coaching accomplishments

what "disqualifies" Khabib as a freestyle wrestler

do you know who Abdulmanap Nurmagomedov is?

I broke all school records as a coach and competed in freestyle in several different countries

who are you?

# fake wrestler
# folkstyle crushed

 

[-guerilla-]

I respectfully disagree-- I love your passion as I come from a wrestling background myself and you make a good argument, but I feel that folkstyle is a significantly dominant style for MMA. The ground control is significantly more applicable imo. We see freestyle guys such as Yoel Romero, Aaron Pico, Arjun Buhler, etc. yield takedowns, but they don't tend to have the top positional control that fighters with a folkstyle background have such as Phil Davis, Kamaru Usman, Gregor Gillespie, etc. There are definitely exceptions, but I believe that evidence suggests that folkstyle is the best base for MMA. Once again, I respect your opinion and feel that it's a matter of perspective and a conversation I too wish was presented more.

yeah its really a shame that there are so few objective folkstyle wrestlers on sherdog, I understand their sensitivity as MMA gave them the FIRST shred of respect in history and now its being taken away by the recent influx of freestyle wrestlers and the "dethroning" of guys like askern and DC by less "credentialed" athletes [in the sport of wrestling]

the FALLACY that only athletes with "elite" competition history "qualify" are "real wrestlers" persists thru the fevered fanboy world view

folkstyle athletes are great at controlling guys from turtle however they give up their back and eat knees with terrible consistency plus one must consider the fact that turtle is only a momentary position in MMA

freestyle wrestling has a much greater array of throws slams and take-downs plus doesn't push the attack attack attack strategy thats infected american wrestling in a misguided attempt to appeal to the audience for TV ratings in an overzealous "anti stall" rule manipulation theory
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/how-we-ruined-grappling-sports.3894543/

the biggest difference is the safespace attitude that folkstyle maintains as a sport for children while freestyle is closer to its roots as a combat analog

one can plainly see that folkstyle is freestyles red headed stepchild as Americans developed it as a "contingency" against international competition...their own unique "version" of wrestling that would insulate them against the rest of the world

these days that strategy has backfired as folkstyle wrestling has PLUMMETED in popularity [even with the mma bump] and its practice has put america at a competitive disadvantage in international wrestling
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/american-scolastic-folkstyle-wrestling-a-dying-sport.3964681/

America has developed it own unique version of wrestling that is only practiced in the american school system and established regional rivalries that kept the sport somewhat popular is a few enclaves throughout the country

HOWEVER

America's failure to adopt International wrestling has kept our athletes at a competitive disadvantage and this results in the failure to win at the international level subsequently large advertisers avoid the sport and it is relegated further and further into the Dustbin of History

I believe this is a major factor in the Olympics decision to cut wrestling from the schedule...

99% of people are blissfully ignorant that wrestling is only safe through the next 2 Olympic Cycles there after it will be put back on the Olympic chopping block

Folk style may have killed International wrestling along with itself, what a shame we did not adopt INTERNATIONAL wrestling and produce DOMINANT teams [cause we would] and secure wrestling future thru the support of big advertisers like Coke, McDonalds and Budweiser

THUS is the sad situation we find ourselves in as the commercialization of sports has put wrestling in a death grip she is unlikely to break free of

 

[Blayt7hh]

You didn't address my freestyle + BJJ point

GSP is indisputably the greatest MMA wrestler and fighter of all time, and he trained exclusively in freestyle wrestling at the Montreal Wrestling Club

Folkstyle has the largest arsenal of takedowns. It’s also focused on keeping your opponent down after the takedown. That fits perfectly with BJJ. If you’re doing bjj your takedown is pointless if you can’t keep him down. It’s also just better to be the guy on top, even in bjj despite what the rules say. The art would change for the better if the rules would acknowledge that. It’s a huge pet peeves of mine that pulling guard doesn’t give the guy on top the takedown points

 

[-guerilla-]

Folkstyle has the largest arsenal of takedowns. It’s also focused on keeping your opponent down after the takedown. That fits perfectly with BJJ. If you’re doing bjj your takedown is pointless if you can’t keep him down. It’s also just better to be the guy on top, even in bjj despite what the rules say. The art would change for the better if the rules would acknowledge that. It’s a huge pet peeves of mine that pulling guard doesn’t give the guy on top the takedown points

Blayt7hh said:
"Folkstyle has the largest arsenal of takedowns"

hmmm, gonna have to categorically call that one out...

FREESTYLE


FOLKSTYLE


Great point about pulling guard in BJJ not giving up takedown points...it is all about anti wrestler rule manipulation

In MMA if you take your opponent down and he eats a few strikes while trying to get up and then you take him down again you are dominating the fight

The best GRAPPLING combination for MMA
(besides MMA of course) is free-style wrestling for the stand up game and Gi less BJJ for the ground game

It's absurd that in America we have to "glue" several martial arts together to call it what it is...pankration/shooto

 

[-guerilla-]

Are we really going to pretend like Khabib’s Judo and Sambo don’t play a MAJOR role in his ability to string TD attempts and dominate wrestling?

Seems silly to try to discuss this style vs that style when the guy who is the primary example of one of those is possibly the most well rounded grappler in human history.

You have an excellent point but this thread is dissolving the fallacy that one must be an elite athlete in a certain style to be considered as representing that style

the fact is khabib's father is his primary mentor and trainer and khabib's father is...
you guessed it...
an accomplished freestyle wrestler

The fact is the very best wrestlers don't do that well in MMA because they have put all their eggs in the "wrestling basket"

People like Jon Jones are a much better representation of the wrestling to MMA skill set as he is a mediocre wrestler but a phenomenal Striker and has a better balance then someone like Dan Gable

People like Dan Gable and Alexander karelin would likely get murdered in MMA cuz it's not their sport

Over specialization is a negative...every time

The most juvenile mentality suggest that wrestling is the best base for MMA and thus the best wrestler will win consistently in MMA however the punchline is wrestling is not the best base for MMA... the fact is we glue multiple martial arts together to create MMA when MMA existed all along... we didn't invent MMA ...we rediscovered it and gave it a patchwork name

PankratIon is the true mma however it just won't sell to the General Public

I tried calling my gym the Louisville pankration club for a year... no dice!

I couldn't pick up steam until I called it the Louisville MMA Fight Club

The fact is wrestling is not the best base for MMA

it's the best base available in the USA for MMA and there is a very simple reason why folkstyle wrestlers have dominated American MMA and nothing else

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-real-reason-wrestlers-dominate-the-ufc-american-mma.3959991/


https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...c-mma-wrestling-is-not-best-mma-base.3983081/

 

[lsa]

Sounds more like you've trained with shitty people. And that the place you coach at just hasn't had a opportunity to get a better coach so they're stuck with you.

Now now..
You are talking to a guy that claims he trained ninjas and Navy seals in mma....
He is also one of the founding fathers of American MMA..

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...lub-founding-fathers-of-american-mma.3991429/