Finally realized why Grapplers are so strong.

[Jack Handy jr]

It finally dawned on me when this smallish purple belt had my back the other day I went two on one to pull his right arm and use it as an anchor to force turn into his guard.

The thing is he was pulling back so hard it took all of my vast strength and many seconds to turn into his guard.

and that's where I realized; you can lift as much weight as you want, body build, Olympic whatever. I'd wager 90% of even advanced gym rats that cross over to grappling never truly go as heavy as they can per set to muscle failure. IMO that's what happens a lot when two guys of equal grappling skill are trying to get the dominant more desirable position in a strength stalled scramble.

This means (or in my case anyway) a lot of strength is being used to either

1.Not get placed in a bad leverage position.

2. Reverse a bad position when more technical solutions fail.

This type of stress on a grapplers musco skeletal system is essentially like maxing out or static hold pushing one's max weight whilst engaging your core and legs.

For example I can easily curl 135 pounds for five reps, and if I really try I can get up 6 or on a good day 7 reps. That's Olympic standard bar with one 45 lb plate or 20.4116567 KG for my British sherbrethern on each side. I've noticed many people staring at me in amazement when I'm curling their warm up bench weight at the gym.

Now one would think I would easily be able to defeat kimura's and keylock's, or arm bars with ease but no. It is very difficult.

thoughts.

 

[fanboysareevil]

That's...uh...not really how scrambles normally work. I don't think I've ever experienced true muscle failure like a set of heavy bench or squats in BJJ, or in what little sambo and wrestling I've done. Attempting to muscle things and failing? Yeah, but it's completely different than giving 110% in the weight room, where you're grinding against a weight for a few seconds after successfully hitting it multiple times before. You know when something is and isn't going to work long before true muscular failure, even when you're pretty new and trying to muscle everything, and even when you're evenly matched and scrambling hard.

Grapplers probably feel strong for a number of reasons, the biggest one being that good grapplers are always trying to be in position, and everyone feels strong when they're in a strong position. Good technique makes people feel stronger than they really are in general too, and they've probably developed some specific strength just from being in grappling positions over and over.

Last fall and this spring I've struggled a lot with illness and injuries, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't even bench 225 anymore, and yet I'm still supposedly "strong" in the gym. Probably because I'm a brown belt in a room that is generally full of blue and purples.

Lastly, it may seem like it if you haven't done a lot of Jiu-Jitsu yet, but no one in their right mind is going to expect you to be able to stop armbars because you can curl a lot. Repping 135, that's quite good, but you're probably getting at least a little momentum/cheat. Now lay down where you can't cheat at all, your arm is at a weird angle, and you're probably already tired. It's more than likely that without a good grip on your gi/free arm, most people will be able to get the extension just with their weight. Add their hips (every healthy Jiu-Jitsu player will deadlift much more than you curl) and that elbow is sunk.

 

[RJ Green]

 

[TenderLoving]

Haha, holy shit.

 

[fanboysareevil]

Alright, that gif has to become a thing.

 

[Dirty Holt]

A few things:

What many think of scrambling is two guys letting loose, going real hard, and letting the chips fall where they may. This is far from the truth. Wrestlers have known this for years, that scrambles are merely positions with multiple paths to success. The guy who has his pathways faster and more instinctive than the other guy is going to win.

Why do grapplers feel so strong when others can lift more? It simply comes down to 2 basic laws of position.

Positioning your own body to be able to transfer the most force and pressure, while positioning your opponents body to be less efficient at transferring force and pressure. The catch word is invisible jiujitsu or whatever bullshit marketing idea you want to call it. Wrestlers always just called it positiong and pressure.

Understanding the position and what paths you need to win the position, while understanding what your opponent needs to do to win the position, and being positionally ahead of them. The more time that goes on, the stronger they feel because the one who can position better makes the other use way more energy that cannot be sustained over time. This is why a blackbelt can crawl off the couch and not get tired against a whole room full of primed white belts.

Having awesome physical strength added to technique is where normall practitioners get real confused when going against elite level guys. Thats when you start hearing shit like "god given talent" or "gifted genetics" as an explanation of that kind of mix of technique, strength, and positioning.

 

[Nnedd]

I rock climb, and I think there are some real similarities to grappling.

If I'm hanging from a wall, and I'm using my muscles to do it, I'm going to gas quickly. The rule of climbing is to find and advance to positions that allow your structure to support you. If I'm on a sloped wall, I hang from a straight arm instead of a bent arm, to put the load on my body instead of my arm.

Grappling is the same for me. I try to advance to positions that put the load on my structure, instead of my individual muscles. Or even better my opponents structure and muscles.

Sure, scrambles can be a limbo spot and sometimes, shit just doesn't work out.

But in normal grappling, I'm not lifting to exhaustion.

 

[jack36767]

Uhm, before you get technical and nuanced about it. You can boil down how strong high level grapplers, judoka, wrestlers etc. Being/feeling so strong to something very simple...
You're trying to lift/move an odd object that is actively trying to fight and stop you from lifting or moving it.

I was considered one of the strongest pound for pound guys on my college team.. on the mat, not the weight room. And I wasn't that technical till I started coaching, and didn't move well for 2 years due to a lisfranc fracture and short and stocky for my weight so no leverage. That being said, these are my thoughts on strength training for grappling
1. Curls and bench are next to useless. Do shoulder press/overhead carries or incline bench if you must bench, and pull ups and rows.
2. "Pulls" such as deadlift and swings translate better than squats to grappling
3. Cleans are the most overrated exercise in existence
4. Grip is the most important body part asides from hip and neck strength. But not just regular grip, but also clench/thumbless grip/hook grip (like keeping an underhook or a Gable grip) with exercises like Zercher squats and deadlift, zercher sandbag carrries, bear hug sandbag carries
5. Neck strength cannot be overlooked
7. Cross fit is useless for grappling and just risks injury and .akez you sore in a bad way

I have multiple reasons for why I think all of this and obviously there are more good exercises like lunges too

 

[WrestlinganJudo]

It finally dawned on me when this smallish purple belt had my back the other day I went two on one to pull his right arm and use it as an anchor to force turn into his guard.

the thing is he was pulling back so hard it took all of my vast strength and many seconds to turn into.

and that where I realized you can lift as much weight as you want body build, Olympic whatever. I'd wager 90% of even advanced gym rats that cross over to grappling never truly go as heavy as they can per set to muscle failure. that's what happens a lot when two guys of equal grappling skill are trying to get the dominant more desirable position in a strength stalled scramble.

This means (or in my case anyway) a lot of strength is being used to either

1.To not get placed in a bad leverage position.

2. Reverse a bad position when more technical solutions fail.

This type of stress on a grapplers musco skeletal system is essentially like maxing out or static hold pushing one's max weight whilst engaging your core and legs.

For example I can easily curl 135 pounds for five reps, and if I really try I can get up 6 or on a good day 7 reps. That's Olympic standard bar with one 45 lb plate or 20.4116567 KG for my British sherbrethern on each side. I've noticed many people staring at me in amazement when I'm curling their warm up bench weight at the gym.

Now one would think I would easily be able to defeat kimura's and keylock's, or arm bars with ease but no. It is very difficult.

thoughts.

Curls don't offer as much as you would think. For upper body rowing is better than curling. Position to utilize leverage is more important.

Back in my day couches stressed to not muscle in a match. I only came close to muscle failure once. That was in Iowa City and I got caught in a bad position for most of a period.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

That's...uh...not really how scrambles normally work. I don't think I've ever experienced true muscle failure like a set of heavy bench or squats in BJJ, or in what little sambo and wrestling I've done. Attempting to muscle things and failing? Yeah, but it's completely different than giving 110% in the weight room, where you're grinding against a weight for a few seconds after successfully hitting it multiple times before. You know when something is and isn't going to work long before true muscular failure, even when you're pretty new and trying to muscle everything, and even when you're evenly matched and scrambling hard.

Grapplers probably feel strong for a number of reasons, the biggest one being that good grapplers are always trying to be in position, and everyone feels strong when they're in a strong position. Good technique makes people feel stronger than they really are in general too, and they've probably developed some specific strength just from being in grappling positions over and over.

Last fall and this spring I've struggled a lot with illness and injuries, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't even bench 225 anymore, and yet I'm still supposedly "strong" in the gym. Probably because I'm a brown belt in a room that is generally full of blue and purples.

Lastly, it may seem like it if you haven't done a lot of Jiu-Jitsu yet, but no one in their right mind is going to expect you to be able to stop armbars because you can curl a lot. Repping 135, that's quite good, but you're probably getting at least a little momentum/cheat. Now lay down where you can't cheat at all, your arm is at a weird angle, and you're probably already tired. It's more than likely that without a good grip on your gi/free arm, most people will be able to get the extension just with their weight. Add their hips (every healthy Jiu-Jitsu player will deadlift much more than you curl) and that elbow is sunk.

good post

now for the unpleasantness how dare you accuse me of half repping or back arching curls man. do you know how serious an accusation that is ?I'll let you slide this time because the rest of your post was good. I agree that physics plays a big part in how strong a guy feels I think I did a poor job in articulating my thoughts I guess I might be the only one but when your really resisting a guy this is a point when you are truly using all of your available strength not the same when weightlifting even if you're hitting muscle failure

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Alright, that gif has to become a thing.

just hemeber where it started

 

[Chinaboxer]

IMO grapplers are strong because they are constantly forced to handle off balanced weight. this creates functional exercises vs. balanced weight exercises. a balanced push up is much easier than placing a basketball under one hand and doing the same push up. functional exercises also force the person to activate the core, which is the combination of the abdominals, obliques and the lower back. all of this creates whole body unity.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Curls don't offer as much as you would think. For upper body rowing is better than curling. Position to utilize leverage is more important.

Back in my day couches stressed to not muscle in a match. I only came close to muscle failure once. That was in Iowa City and I got caught in a bad position for most of a period.

I completely agree ever since I made the switch from mostly bro type bodybuilding workouts to more Jiu Jitsu. when I do train I do far more pulling exercises like rows, and pullups vs pressing.

 

[WrestlinganJudo]

Jake Herbert is much stronger than Ben.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

IMO grapplers are strong because they are constantly forced to handle off balanced weight. this creates functional exercises vs. balanced weight exercises. a balanced push up is much easier than placing a basketball under one hand and doing the same push up. functional exercises also force the person to activate the core, which is the combination of the abdominals, obliques and the lower back. all of this creates whole body unity.

completely agree. I've often wondered who feels stronger a high level Olympic wrestler or a high level Olympic gymnast? i'm sure Karelin was on something but damn some of that had to be natural

 

[RJ Green]

I rock climb, and I think there are some real similarities to grappling.

If I'm hanging from a wall, and I'm using my muscles to do it, I'm going to gas quickly. The rule of climbing is to find and advance to positions that allow your structure to support you. If I'm on a sloped wall, I hang from a straight arm instead of a bent arm, to put the load on my body instead of my arm.

Grappling is the same for me. I try to advance to positions that put the load on my structure, instead of my individual muscles. Or even better my opponents structure and muscles.

Sure, scrambles can be a limbo spot and sometimes, shit just doesn't work out.

But in normal grappling, I'm not lifting to exhaustion.

whatchu crushin right now bro?

i just started climbing hard this year and the similarities as far as body position and muscle groups and zen and shit are super similar. fantastic cross training. i can especially fake slabby stuff from having slacklined and snowboarded so much, and i don't have to worry about falling for any of it because yay judo!

overhangs can suck it though.

 

[JosephDredd]

It finally dawned on me when this smallish purple belt had my back the other day I went two on one to pull his right arm and use it as an anchor to force turn into his guard.

The thing is he was pulling back so hard it took all of my vast strength and many seconds to turn into his guard.

and that's where I realized; you can lift as much weight as you want, body build, Olympic whatever. I'd wager 90% of even advanced gym rats that cross over to grappling never truly go as heavy as they can per set to muscle failure. IMO that's what happens a lot when two guys of equal grappling skill are trying to get the dominant more desirable position in a strength stalled scramble.

This means (or in my case anyway) a lot of strength is being used to either

1.Not get placed in a bad leverage position.

2. Reverse a bad position when more technical solutions fail.

This type of stress on a grapplers musco skeletal system is essentially like maxing out or static hold pushing one's max weight whilst engaging your core and legs.

For example I can easily curl 135 pounds for five reps, and if I really try I can get up 6 or on a good day 7 reps. That's Olympic standard bar with one 45 lb plate or 20.4116567 KG for my British sherbrethern on each side. I've noticed many people staring at me in amazement when I'm curling their warm up bench weight at the gym.

Now one would think I would easily be able to defeat kimura's and keylock's, or arm bars with ease but no. It is very difficult.

thoughts.

Grappling is interesting because it's the only sport I can think of that mixes concentric, eccentric and static lifting simultaneously.

That builds some serious ability to apply tension and resist tension, imo.

 

[jack36767]

Jake Herbert is much stronger than Ben.

One of the biggest misconceptions about Askren is that he isn't strong because of his body type. Mark Ellis the heavyweight national champion for Missouri and his teammate wad my coach for a year. He said Askren was always one of the leaders in the weight room both as a team leader and his numbers. And I know from personal experience his grip strength is freaky

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Grappling is interesting because it's the only sport I can think of that mixes concentric, eccentric and static lifting simultaneously.

That builds some serious ability to apply tension and resist tension, imo.

NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT IN THOSE KINESIOLOGY SPECIFIC TERMS BRO . BUT YOU'RE RIGHT SOMETIMES AFTER ROLLING FOR HOURS I HAVE A PUMP,

I FEEL LIKE IVE RAN A MARATHON AND THE NEXT DAY I'M FEEL SORE SORRY FOR CAPS LOCK YELLING BROHAM.

 

[jcandoitbig]

I completely agree ever since I made the switch from mostly bro type bodybuilding workouts to more Jiu Jitsu. when I do train I do far more pulling exercises like rows, and pullups vs pressing.

yea and pulling exercises also work your grip strength/core so it's a double whammy