Fighter vs Athlete

[Silver tongue samurai]

Iv heard this before when comparing a match up between two fighters. Bisping called himself a fighter and GSP an athlete. As well i was listening to the Show the Art podcast and they made the observation Holm lacked that killer instinct to pull the trigger against Cyborg concluding shes more of an athlete and Cyborg is more of a natural fighter.

What are your guys thoughts on the topic?
Is there a way to tell if someone is one or the other?

 

[j123]

Iv heard this before when comparing a match up between two fighters. Bisping called himself a fighter and GSP an athlete. As well i was listening to the Show the Art podcast and they made the observation Holm lacked that killer instinct to pull the trigger against Cyborg concluding shes more of an athlete and Cyborg is more of a natural fighter.

What are your guys thoughts on the topic?
Is there a way to tell if someone is one or the other?

I haven't heard fighter vs athlete, but I have heard fighter vs marital artist. For that standpoint, fighter is really someone who thrives and lusts fighting. A martial artist would look to use more technical and tactical aspects to win and address a problem, a fighter on the other hand may be a much more inferior striker, but will still stand and bang to prove a point.

They're not that all different, all fighters are martial artists to some degree, but not all martial arists are fighters.

I would say Lawler is a fighter, and Wonderboy is more MA

I really don't like using the word martial artist, because to me it means weird foreign shit that doesn't work. But for the sake of the topic, its what I see it as.

I guess athlete would differ by looking to win and that combat sports is a game. Fighter would just look to hurt and break their opponent because they get high off it

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

, because to me it means weird foreign shit that doesn't work. But for the sake of the topic, its what I see it as.

I guess athlete would differ by looking to win and that combat sports is a game. Fighter would just look to hurt and break their opponent because they get high off it

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

I guess athlete would differ by looking to win and that combat sports is a game. Fighter would just look to hurt and break their opponent because they get high off it

I feel like this is really important at least in regards to the mentality of each. Also about standing and banging to prove a point I think Holloway Lamas showed this to be pretty true. I think fighters that can hold that back, stay the course and not get sucked into a brawl are a head in the mental game.

With that I always heard stories that Dillashaw is super competitive with whatever hes doing and I feel like that comes with an "alpha" mentality to be better than and beat everyone. In the Dom fight I feel like that got the better of him but against Cody I think he stuck to his plan whether Duane helped him stay focused or not and I think that was a big difference between the fights

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Phil Baroni once described himself as a professional fighter, and not a professional martial artist. He also called himself the "Best Evah". I guess I have to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

Phil Baroni once described himself as a professional fighter, and not a professional martial artist. He also called himself the "Best Evah". I guess I have to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

With a nickname like the New York bad ass id probably not listen at all

 

[Hotora86]

Might as well quote myself from another thread (about Uriah Hall):

Here's a controversial theory: Uriah is just too nice of a guy. He's not bloodthirsty enough, he's not ruthless enough, he cares about his opponents too much.

Remember TUF? Hall felt genuinely SORRY for knocking the other guy out.



I don't believe in "alfa males" and shit but I do think that to become the absolute BEST in such a violent sport you need to be either bloodthirsty (enjoy destroying the opponent) or completely cold-blooded (emotionless).

One could argue that Fedor was both - his face showed no emotion but he said himself that he used to look at his opponents as people who wanted to take food away from his poor family. Jones was bloodthirsty - he enjoyed hurting ppl, stomping knees, eyepoking etc. Wandy was bloodthirst incarnate. Anderson was cold-blooded. And so on.

If you're "only" skilled and athletic (which Hall obviously is) you may end up a gatekeeper (which is who Hall has become). There are many awesome fighters who just don't "smell the blood" - I think Wonderboy is a great example. He has all the tools to be champ but he's too hesitant.

There are exceptions of course - like Machida, who is neither bloodthirsty nor ruthless but he was able to go into fights with an emotionless "empty mind", which is hard to do.

I thought about this a bit more and came to the conclusion that in some cases a great athlete without the "killer instinct" can outsmart a great fighter who gets too bloodthirsty. Basically, if you're someone like Hall or Machida and you thrive on countering ppl who rush in. You act as if they are imposing their will on you (which they obviously want to do) and defend long enough to see an opening... then BAM! They're out.

This is what happened in the cited clip when Hall smoked Adam. The same happened in Machida vs Silva multiple times before Silva finally got knocked out cold later in the round.

Problem is, if the bloodthirsty opponent is as skilled and AS SMART as the "athlete" he won't "bite" (put not intended).

Bottom line, it's hard to make definite and universal statements. Obviously a dose of bloodlust is necessary to even compete in MMA, but too much can be your downfall. "Nice guy" athletes can still win and be great champs too - like aforementioned GSP.

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

Might as well quote myself from another thread (about Uriah Hall):



I thought about this a bit more and came to the conclusion that in some cases a great athlete without the "killer instinct" can outsmart a great fighter who gets too bloodthirsty. Basically, if you're someone like Hall or Machida and you thrive on countering ppl who rush in. You act as if they are imposing their will on you (which they obviously want to do) and defend long enough to see an opening... then BAM! They're out.

This is what happened in the cited clip when Hall smoked Adam. The same happened in Machida vs Silva multiple times before Silva finally got knocked out cold later in the round.

Problem is, if the bloodthirsty opponent is as skilled and AS SMART as the "athlete" he won't "bite" (put not intended).

Bottom line, it's hard to make definite and universal statements. Obviously a dose of bloodlust is necessary to even compete in MMA, but too much can be your downfall. "Nice guy" athletes can still win and be great champs too - like aforementioned GSP.

A savage athletic counter fighter with a high fight IQ is the epitome then, yeah? (Obviously there is no "answer" when talking about a fight match up but for the sake of the conversation)

 

[Hotora86]

A savage athletic counter fighter with a high fight IQ is the epitome then, yeah? (Obviously there is no "answer" when talking about a fight match up but for the sake of the conversation)

Even for the sake of conversation, there cannot be any epitome.

Until some MMA messiah comes along with a very distinct style and beats everyone on his way to the UFC belt and retires undefeated - we cannot claim any particular style (or even fighter) is the "the epitome".

Sometimes I wish Machida retired right after the Evans title fight - he'd certainly retain an absolutely mythical status of this amazing Karate guy from the middle of the Amazonian jungle who went straight from Karate to MMA, took a UFC belt like it was nothing and retired undefeated. Quite a legend that would be!

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

Even for the sake of conversation, there cannot be any epitome.

Until some MMA messiah comes along with a very distinct style and beats everyone on his way to the UFC belt and retires undefeated - we cannot claim any particular style (or even fighter) is the "the epitome".

Sometimes I wish Machida retired right after the Evans title fight - he'd certainly retain an absolutely mythical status of this amazing Karate guy from the middle of the Amazonian jungle who went straight from Karate to MMA, took a UFC belt like it was nothing and retired undefeated. Quite a legend that would be!

Machida- Maybe not a savage at heart but id say athletic counter fighter with high fight IQ. I think we maybe on to something here.

 

[Hotora86]

Machida- Maybe not a savage at heart but id say athletic counter fighter with high fight IQ. I think we maybe on to something here.

I think quite the opposite of "savage". But I think in his case it was the ABANDONING of that safe counter style is what cause his demise.

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

I agree with that. If he were to stick with it could he have been the messiah

I also forgot he got slumped by Jones...but it was coke jones

 

[Azam]

An athlete to me is someone that treats/trains from the perspective that they are competing in a sport and enjoy the whole process of training, have a competitors spirit and want to win (no matter how they get the win - a win is a win). They treat MMA as a sport - game plan & strategize and don't necessarily care for being drawn out into wars - they want to win no matter how they go about it. I feel like athletes in MMA probably enjoy the sports aspect of what they do - more than the actual fighting. They're the kind that would end up in any sport - not necessarily fighting. It just happens that in their case the cards that were dealt means they fight for a living.

A fighter though on the other hand is someone that revels in the carnage of a fight like @j123 said they have a lust for fighting. Sometimes that love of fighting makes them reckless (inside & out of the cage) because they are drawn into wars of attrition that they might not otherwise have to be drawn into. They don't game-plan as well as athletes do I feel as well - sometimes they abandon their strengths because fighting for them is not about winning - but about how you win. Pride comes into play with this significantly. Also I think that they don't necessarily enjoy the whole process of training but rather enjoy the sparring aspect much more. They're the kind that wouldn't end up in any other sport except a combat sport.

Martial artists to me is someone that trains from the perspective of a lifestyle - they're in it for the long haul not just for the short-term (their professional careers). I feel like a martial artist also doesn't particularly enjoy fighting for living but does so out of the need to make a livelihood. They treat fighting in a similar way to athletes I feel.


I think most are a combination of the above but in differing amounts and probably lean more to one than the other other two. I think there are more athletes in MMA nowadays, followed by fighters than lastly martial artist. Personally I feel like there are very few martial artists - I feel like most genuine martial artists would have an issue beating up other people for entertainment/sports purposes - after all it's more than a sport - it's a way of life - a philosophy.

When I think of an athlete I think of someone like Jon Jones, Tyron Woodley or DJ. When I think of a fighter - I think of Cowboy, Lawler or Hunt. When I think of martial artists - I think of Uriah Hall, Machida or GSP.

 

[esum80]

gsp would be another example of a martial artist; he is constantly training and trying to improve his skills.

 

[Silver tongue samurai]

An athlete to me is someone that treats/trains from the perspective that they are competing in a sport and enjoy the whole process of training, have a competitors spirit and want to win (no matter how they get the win - a win is a win). They treat MMA as a sport - game plan & strategize and don't necessarily care for being drawn out into wars - they want to win no matter how they go about it. I feel like athletes in MMA probably enjoy the sports aspect of what they do - more than the actual fighting. They're the kind that would end up in any sport - not necessarily fighting. It just happens that in their case the cards that were dealt means they fight for a living.

A fighter though on the other hand is someone that revels in the carnage of a fight like @j123 said they have a lust for fighting. Sometimes that love of fighting makes them reckless (inside & out of the cage) because they are drawn into wars of attrition that they might not otherwise have to be drawn into. They don't game-plan as well as athletes do I feel as well - sometimes they abandon their strengths because fighting for them is not about winning - but about how you win. Pride comes into play with this significantly. Also I think that they don't necessarily enjoy the whole process of training but rather enjoy the sparring aspect much more. They're the kind that wouldn't end up in any other sport except a combat sport.

Martial artists to me is someone that trains from the perspective of a lifestyle - they're in it for the long haul not just for the short-term (their professional careers). I feel like a martial artist also doesn't particularly enjoy fighting for living but does so out of the need to make a livelihood. They treat fighting in a similar way to athletes I feel.


I think most are a combination of the above but in differing amounts and probably lean more to one than the other other two. I think there are more athletes in MMA nowadays, followed by fighters than lastly martial artist. Personally I feel like there are very few martial artists - I feel like most genuine martial artists would have an issue beating up other people for entertainment/sports purposes - after all it's more than a sport - it's a way of life - a philosophy.

When I think of an athlete I think of someone like Jon Jones, Tyron Woodley or DJ. When I think of a fighter - I think of Cowboy, Lawler or Hunt. When I think of martial artists - I think of Uriah Hall, Machida or GSP.

I feel like Jones definitely has a fair share of fighter in him. His brothers both are in the NFL which leads me to believe Jon likes to fight