Favorite War Room poster

[dontsnitch]

I think it's more a case of the black people come in and ask for a cake with some sort of crazy racist symbol on it and get turned away. I've read about it happening to white nationalists, and no-one seemed to care. Some guy went into Dairy Queen and asked for his kid's full name to be written on the birthday case - I believe it was something like "Joe Adolph Hitler Smith." His daughter's name was something like "Jane Aryan Nation Smith." Go figure, the DQ turned him down, offered to make him a cake with something else written on it, and it never made it past small media...

That's precisely the analogy to use: A White Supremacist asking a black-owned catering company to cater their anti-black luncheon.

Although, I never personally understood the Christian fundamentalist objection to baking the cake, but I think it's a mistake to not see this as a slippery slope to where clergymen will eventually be asked to marry gay people.

 

[Cmart]

That's precisely the analogy to use: A White Supremacist asking a black-owned catering company to cater their anti-black luncheon.

Although, I never personally understood the Christian fundamentalist objection to baking the cake, but I think it's a mistake to not see this as a slippery slope to where clergymen will eventually be asked to marry gay people.

Damn this would make an excellent talk show segment if someone would do it on hidden camera. Where's that guy who snuck into Acorn? He could do it.

 

[ehtheist]

That's precisely the analogy to use: A White Supremacist asking a black-owned catering company to cater their anti-black luncheon.

Although, I never personally understood the Christian fundamentalist objection to baking the cake, but I think it's a mistake to not see this as a slippery slope to where clergymen will eventually be asked to marry gay people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...23/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

For reference. Hadn't read it in a long time. Wasn't DQ, was some other store. Go figure, didn't read about it on CNN, and there were no public or corporate protests over denial of service . Didn't care at the time and still don't, but I bet you there are some nuts like this staking out black run bakeries to make a point... Of course then we'll hear ten thousands versions of "oh, that's different because...."

 

[dontsnitch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...23/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

For reference. Hadn't read it in a long time. Wasn't DQ, was some other store. Go figure, didn't read about it on CNN, and there were no public or corporate protests over denial of service . Didn't care at the time and still don't, but I bet you there are some nuts like this staking out black run bakeries to make a point... Of course then we'll hear ten thousands versions of "oh, that's different because...."

Yeah, I remember the case well. I bring it up anecdotally all the time, and yeah, people will argue that it's different.

What I find hilarious is why anyone would want someone to provide for them a service, especially something as sensitive as food, who doesn't want to do it. I'm a sycophant at restaurants because I don't mess with the people who handle my food. Demanding that someone bake your food who doesn't want to do it takes it to another level of nonchalance.

 

[klnOmega]

So if you belong to a denomination that thinks black people shouldn't be served, you should be allowed that opportunity?

Of course. Its your business, you should be free to associate with whomever you want.
If a Muslim wants to open a butcher shop or day care for only Muslims, that's fine too. Its no different than an Asian man choosing only to date and marry Asian women. Its discriminatory, but I respect his freedom to choose his associates.

 

[JDragon]

That's precisely the analogy to use: A White Supremacist asking a black-owned catering company to cater their anti-black luncheon.

Although, I never personally understood the Christian fundamentalist objection to baking the cake, but I think it's a mistake to not see this as a slippery slope to where clergymen will eventually be asked to marry gay people.

They will be asked. And what is the problem with asking?

The thing is that marriage is

a) something the state conducts and recognizes. Not a church issue

and

b) something churches do, i.e. a matter of religious freedom.

If churches should ever be forced to marry gay people, that will be a problem.

 

[dontsnitch]

They will be asked. And what is the problem with asking?

The thing is that marriage is

a) something the state conducts and recognizes. Not a church issue

and

b) something churches do, i.e. a matter of religious freedom.

If churches should ever be forced to marry gay people, that will be a problem.

There is a very fine line between discriminating against a gay person by not providing a service for them, and discriminating against a gay person by not providing the service of marriage to them.

It's not unfathomable to think this may be an issue one day.

 

[ehtheist]

Yeah, I remember the case well. I bring it up anecdotally all the time, and yeah, people will argue that it's different.

What I find hilarious is why anyone would want someone to provide for them a service, especially something as sensitive as food, who doesn't want to do it. I'm a sycophant at restaurants because I don't mess with the people who handle my food. Demanding that someone bake your food who doesn't want to do it takes it to another level of nonchalance.

Yeah, it is strange. On phone, so I'll keep this short... Of course, the cases are different - all cases are. There are major similarities which people willfully ignore because they like/support the one case while they disagree with the other. It's like the corporate boycott thing... Corporations do something to pressure or influence a government about a pipeline/trade deal or something? "Keep corporations out of my government! Corporate run states, rabble rabble rabble.". Disney threatens to leave a state over marriage laws? "Gooooo Disney! Wahoo - wish more companies pressured the state like this!"

It's like they don't even see the risk in this, or the agenda, driven inconsistencies in their actions. Point it out and it's full defense mode, and the next day they're protesting corporate activity influencing government again...

 

[ucunc156]

The bakery does not refuse gay people service, so the analogy is not quite apt, regardless of whether this is right or wrong.

I'm confused... How are they not refusing service? Assuming the bakery only bakes pastries for private events rather than resale.

I think it's more a case of the black people come in and ask for a cake with some sort of crazy racist symbol on it and get turned away. I've read about it happening to white nationalists, and no-one seemed to care. Some guy went into Dairy Queen and asked for his kid's full name to be written on the birthday case - I believe it was something like "Joe Adolph Hitler Smith." His daughter's name was something like "Jane Aryan Nation Smith." Go figure, the DQ turned him down, offered to make him a cake with something else written on it, and it never made it past small media...

Religious figures refuse to marry people of certain types all the time - many Catholic churches, for instance, won't marry non-Catholics. Yet I don't remember anyone being up in arms over this? They just accept that the non-Catholics go to somewhere that non-Catholics are married...

So I'm not entirely sure of the laws, but isn't hate speech not protected? That would be the reasoning why something like a nazi sign couldn't be put on a cake. I would lol if it was a hindu family asking for it though.

As for the 2nd part, separation of church and state applies here. There is a big difference between being a business owner who is part of a certain church vs actually being the church. I'm fine with a church not allowing black people if that is actually what the religion speaks to, as the church should be different than the state. But allowing business owners to pick and choose who they serve to is one hell of a slippery slope. And for the record, catholic churches will marry you and its called mixed marriages. There's a process and all but there is for catholics getting married as well. But like I said earlier, this is a case of the actual church having seperate rules than state.

 

[ucunc156]

Of course. Its your business, you should be free to associate with whomever you want.
If a Muslim wants to open a butcher shop or day care for only Muslims, that's fine too. Its no different than an Asian man choosing only to date and marry Asian women. Its discriminatory, but I respect his freedom to choose his associates.

and you don't see how this could end up terribly leading the south to basically revert to segregating?? Are you dense or just an ideologue who doesn't care about ramifications because you happen to be part of the majority?

That's precisely the analogy to use: A White Supremacist asking a black-owned catering company to cater their anti-black luncheon.

Although, I never personally understood the Christian fundamentalist objection to baking the cake, but I think it's a mistake to not see this as a slippery slope to where clergymen will eventually be asked to marry gay people.

Like my earlier post, this is a separation of church and state and hate speech isn't protected to my knowledge. There is a huge difference between forcing a religious institution to do something against their beliefs and someone who subscribes to a certain religion using that religion as a means to turn away others.

 

[ucunc156]

What I find hilarious is why anyone would want someone to provide for them a service, especially something as sensitive as food, who doesn't want to do it. I'm a sycophant at restaurants because I don't mess with the people who handle my food. Demanding that someone bake your food who doesn't want to do it takes it to another level of nonchalance.

Obviously, I agree with that, but lets keep in mind these ideas for people who don't have the option. I live in a metropolitan area of america that is in the midwest. As an Indian, I am sure I am treated differently here than say the deep south, especially in rural areas. Not saying that all rural whites are racist or anything like that, but simply that experiences are different and that in rural areas, you have less choices.

There is a very fine line between discriminating against a gay person by not providing a service for them, and discriminating against a gay person by not providing the service of marriage to them.

It's not unfathomable to think this may be an issue one day.

I can see it moving to that, but like I said, its a totally different situation as it is the actual church itself in that scenario. Not just some business owner subscribing to the beliefs. I would never support churches being forced to marry gay people. A church marriage is different than a state marriage and neither are acknowledged as whole by the other.

 

[dontsnitch]

I'm confused... How are they not refusing service? Assuming the bakery only bakes pastries for private events rather than resale.

They do serve gay people, and as far as I know, they had even served those very same gay people in the past. They are not refusing service because they are gay, they are refusing service because they do not want to participate in an activity which they do not agree with on religious grounds.

It is the same as a black-owned bakery serving KKK members, but refusing to cater a KKK rally, whether right or wrong.

 

[ucunc156]

They do serve gay people, and as far as I know, they had even served those very same gay people in the past. They are not refusing service because they are gay, they are refusing service because they do not want to participate in an activity which they do not agree with on religious grounds.

It is the same as a black-owned bakery serving KKK members, but refusing to cater a KKK rally, whether right or wrong.

in this bizarre scenario that a kkk member wants a black person to make them a cake for their wedding, I think the black baker should be made to provide said cake for kkk member. Barring it having hate speech involved. If the gay couple was asking for two dicks to be iced onto the cake, then I would be fine with the bakery refusing them on religious grounds. but assuming its a normal cake, I don't think they have the right to refuse.

 

[dontsnitch]

in this bizarre scenario that a kkk member wants a black person to make them a cake for their wedding, I think the black baker should be made to provide said cake for kkk member. Barring it having hate speech involved. If the gay couple was asking for two dicks to be iced onto the cake, then I would be fine with the bakery refusing them on religious grounds. but assuming its a normal cake, I don't think they have the right to refuse.

The exact analogy would be the KKK asking the black baker to cater an anti-black affair, not simply provide a service to a KKK member. Remember that gay people are not turned down by virtue of simply being gay but because the bakers are opposed to the event.

These would be similar analogies.

 

[ucunc156]

The exact analogy would be the KKK asking the black baker to cater an anti-black affair, not simply provide a service to a KKK member. Remember that gay people are not turned down by virtue of simply being gay but because the bakers are opposed to the event.

These would be similar analogies.

Not really. A gay marriage isn't an anti-christian affair. It may be against some Christian teachings, but its sole purpose is to unite two people in a loving ceremony. An anti black affair is well, an anti black affair. I would be fine with a christian bakery refusing to cater a satanist ceremony. No problem there. other religious ceremonies outside the realm of christianity is more of a gray area, but a satanist ceremony is definitely 100% in opposition to christianity.

 

[dontsnitch]

Not really. A gay marriage isn't an anti-christian affair. It may be against some Christian teachings, but its sole purpose is to unite two people in a loving ceremony. An anti black affair is well, an anti black affair. I would be fine with a christian bakery refusing to cater a satanist ceremony. No problem there. other religious ceremonies outside the realm of christianity is more of a gray area, but a satanist ceremony is definitely 100% in opposition to christianity.

This is the mental gymnastics that was alluded to earlier, and I don't mean that in an offensive way. Gay marriage is very much against Christian philosophy, so it's no wonder some Christians don't want to participate in it, no different than a black man not wanting to participate in something that is inherently offensive to him.

You accept both or you reject both.

 

[ucunc156]

This is the mental gymnastics that was alluded to earlier, and I don't mean that in an offensive way. Gay marriage is very much against Christian philosophy, so it's no wonder some Christians don't want to participate in it, no different than a black man not wanting to participate in something that is inherently offensive to him.

You accept both or you reject both.

Lots of things are against Christian philosophy. Gonna not provide services for 2nd marriages as well? Gonna not provide services for all other denominations outside of yours? Or at the bare minimum non Christians/chuch services? How about for those who lie or don't go to church and honor the sabbath or those who use the lord's name in vain? Those are 10 commandments last I checked, while sodomy isn't specifically mentioned. And what about the idea of loving thy neighbor? After all, Jesus himself took in prostitutes and those scorned by society? So why exactly are we picking and choosing which belief to follow, unless its specifically to discriminate against a group of people.

 

[dontsnitch]

Lots of things are against Christian philosophy. Gonna not provide services for 2nd marriages as well? Gonna not provide services for all other denominations outside of yours? Or at the bare minimum non Christians/chuch services? How about for those who lie or don't go to church and honor the sabbath or those who use the lord's name in vain? Those are 10 commandments last I checked, while sodomy isn't specifically mentioned. And what about the idea of loving thy neighbor? After all, Jesus himself took in prostitutes and those scorned by society? So why exactly are we picking and choosing which belief to follow, unless its specifically to discriminate against a group of people.

You keep conflating not providing a service with someone you disagree with, with not providing service for an event you disagree with. Gay people are not turned away from the bakery. Gay people are turned away when they ask the bakers to participate in a ceremony they don't approve of.

In the same way, black people would not be turning away racists, they would be turning away racists that ask them to participate in a ceremony they don't agree with.

 

[ucunc156]

You keep conflating not providing a service with someone you disagree with, with not providing service for an event you disagree with. Gay people are not turned away from the bakery. Gay people are turned away when they ask the bakers to participate in a ceremony they don't approve of.

In the same way, black people would not be turning away racists, they would be turning away racists that ask them to participate in a ceremony they don't agree with.

I'm certainly not. I'm saying that if you're using the fact that gay marriage is against Christianity, then you better be using same logic for not providing service for any secular or non christian marriage, any bar mitzvah or other religious ceremony outside of Christianity, or any second marriage. Shockingly I don't see any refusal of services for these things. Maybe because that would actually deeply impact ones business since its not just some minor part of the customer base?

 

[dontsnitch]

I'm certainly not. I'm saying that if you're using the fact that gay marriage is against Christianity, then you better be using same logic for not providing service for any secular or non christian marriage, any bar mitzvah or other religious ceremony outside of Christianity, or any second marriage. Shockingly I don't see any refusal of services for these things. Maybe because that would actually deeply impact ones business since its not just some minor part of the customer base?

It's much more difficult to know if this is someone's second marriage, but I can imagine some Christians not wanting to participate in that. That's irrelevant to the analogy of the black caterer.

Do you think it's right for a black caterer to reject a racist who wants to have his white nationalist dinner catered?