Eye gouging against a trained grappler is easier said than done. (Share your experiences)

[Davidjacksonjones]

39 years old, haven't had a street fight in nearly 20 years

Fought daily as a kid and changed as I became a young adult, due to boxing and kickboxing, only moved to grappling post covid

So many talk about hypotheticals In street fights. I have been lucky to be fair I did a little door work and had some altercations, but nothing major

I know for some unfortunate people, you will need to defend yourself, because assholes do exist, but I find if you carry yourself accordingly and don't look for trouble? Then 99.9% of the time you won't find

Now I hope I have not jinxed my situation by posting this, but I think most street fights can be avoided if you are level headed, confident and know how to talk to people

No winners in a street fight imo. Even if you win? You likely lose

Now self defence is different, which is necessary if someone becomes confrontational

I agree that street fights are silly and can be avoided. We just need to follow Saint Jones example and spread love and peace

Every time I feel angry and about to say or do something mean I take a deep breath, count to 10 and think to myself what would Saint Jones do, and then I end up finding the most peaceful solution

 

[ChickenBrother]

TLDR:
Protect yourself at all times and foul them back.

Haha I don't have petrified mammoth nuts, though I kinda wish I did. I just accept that groin shots happen in training against people because we train in contact sports and spend an unusual amount of time between each others legs. I never wear a cup. I adjust my position and protect myself from these situations as much as possible.

You are taking these shots in positions you think you are safe because of the ruleset. They are catching you with you basically allowing them access because we have an agreement we will be careful in those positions. It's the same as not doing kana basami even though it completely changes the single leg wrestling game.

Don't get me wrong I don't think they aren't effective, but the topic of the thread is about the trained grappler vs untrained person trying to use eye gouges and groin strikes to win a grappling fight. My argument is grappler will just foul them back, but do it better.

We have seen this play out in MMA already. They had to change the rules because the grapplers were destroying everyone early on in no time limit fights with headbutts and groin strikes being allowed. None of the groin strike, dim mak guys were majorly successful at any point in fighting history because they can't spar their techniques and get destroyed by basic boxing or grappling with minor adjustments.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing dude. And yeah, I don't wear a cup either and the incidental ball strikes I've taken are infrequent enough, and have not done material damage to the point I feel the need. However, the BB at our gym who got sent to the ER now wears a cup every roll and says he's not taking any chances.

Completely onboard that a "grappler will just foul them back, but do it better" in most cases. But that wouldn't be possible if the grappler is physically incapable of fighting back. And the two instances I've experienced where that happened (other than being KTFO) was a rear thrust kick to the liver from a pro fighter and a hard shot to the nuts (accidental). A brawler is unlikely to pull off the first and while the second is still low %, it is entirely possible in a spazzy scramble. Again I'm not talking a ballbag dim mak specialist but a spazzy guy flailing punches and kicks everywhere inside your guard and anywhere else. I'd equate that risk to just "getting caught" by an inferior striker.

 

[maximus__]

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing dude. And yeah, I don't wear a cup either and the incidental ball strikes I've taken are infrequent enough, and have not done material damage to the point I feel the need. However, the BB at our gym who got sent to the ER now wears a cup every roll and says he's not taking any chances.

Completely onboard that a "grappler will just foul them back, but do it better" in most cases. But that wouldn't be possible if the grappler is physically incapable of fighting back. And the two instances I've experienced where that happened (other than being KTFO) was a rear thrust kick to the liver from a pro fighter and a hard shot to the nuts (accidental). A brawler is unlikely to pull off the first and while the second is still low %, it is entirely possible in a spazzy scramble. Again I'm not talking a ballbag dim mak specialist but a spazzy guy flailing punches and kicks everywhere inside your guard and anywhere else. I'd equate that risk to just "getting caught" by an inferior striker.

100% in agreement. I just bring it back to the thread topic. Yes it is harder to eye gouge/groin shot a trained grappler. My main response was in relation to someone thinking a groin shot or eye gouge is an instant winner in these situations. That's why we still have people running mcdojos and making people think their WangPokeDoo will protect them in a self defence situation.

 

[TheMaster]

Simply by hipping in correctly and stretching the bottom persons legs out. In a proper grapevine the hips are driving in. There is no access to the groin at all because there is no space?

It can be used as a submission.


If bottom person reaches in for the groin they have to bend their arms and are basically giving up under hooks.

Or top person just hips in and gouges the eyes themselves and the fight is magically finished. That's before we even add strikes to the equation from there.

Everything is accessible to the grappler, they just get to do it from a better position.

Not gonna lie, that was a slick submission and I had no idea you could actually get enough knee torque from the leg grapevine itself from mount to get a sub.

That said, I think you are arguing a different point. No one is disputing that the skilled grappler can do the same dirty tactics from a better position and also defend them better. The main issue though is that if said tactics are done first, they can be a fight ender regardless of who does them. This is why they can have an equalising effect. We have seen top MMA fighters writhing on the floor in agony for minutes, following taking a clean hit to the groin through a protective cup. Those moves wouldnt require excessive skills than you see outside the bar. So if your grappling habits put in danger of this, then the untrained guy may just take the opportunity first and that would be it.

Also there is the related question, what about if it was two relatively knowledgeable grapplers both utilising such tactics in a no rules situation? That is interesting in that they could use these tactics to prevent the getting of certain positions or to end it outright.

You've got my attention.
How bout top side control? How susceptible is someone for eye gouges and groin strikes from side mount and cross side?

I mean you get a sense quite quickly when you roll with this in mind about where is safe, and where you wouldn't want a stray hand or knee coming near you. Remember that both Judo, which BJJ derives from, and wrestling are competitive sports first with these methods obviously removed.

This is what always irritated me about the 'BJJ invades Judo school and taps people' vids. You have the usual commentary by BJJ guy "Judoka gets the throw... but then the fight doesn't end like in Judo rules so we keep going, and eventually I secure the submission". Well what about if you spar randori on a wooden floor? Then the guy who gets thrown may not get up which is the idea and why a throw is an ippon in Judo and wrestling.

Regarding your question, let's see my old favourite Scarf hold.

Standard control in Judo and Sambo, flows from a throw and can lead to neck cranks and arm triangle choke. Most importantly it's also safe from groin attacks and also largely from eye gouging apart from the opponents free arm but it can be minimised with putting the head down to apply pressure.
According to the BJJ school of thought though, it's a liability because 'you can get your back taken' (not true if done properly).
So they much prefer this, a standard side control to transition from.

As is clearly visible though, not only is your groin now easily in reach of the opponents hand, you head can also easily be gouged by the other hand. It's a much less safe position from a self defence perspective (aside from the fact your head is also facing down reducing visibility of surroundings).
So this is just one example why the rules set overlooks obvious dangers and directs the sport in a potentially less realistic way.

 

[maximus__]

Not gonna lie, that was a slick submission and I had no idea you could actually get enough knee torque from the leg grapevine itself from mount to get a sub.

That said, I think you are arguing a different point. No one is disputing that the skilled grappler can do the same dirty tactics from a better position and also defend them better. The main issue though is that if said tactics are done first, they can be a fight ender regardless of who does them. This is why they can have an equalising effect. We have seen top MMA fighters writhing on the floor in agony for minutes, following taking a clean hit to the groin through a protective cup. Those moves wouldnt require excessive skills than you see outside the bar. So if your grappling habits put in danger of this, then the untrained guy may just take the opportunity first and that would be it.

Also there is the related question, what about if it was two relatively knowledgeable grapplers both utilising such tactics in a no rules situation? That is interesting in that they could use these tactics to prevent the getting of certain positions or to end it outright.




I mean you get a sense quite quickly when you roll with this in mind about where is safe, and where you wouldn't want a stray hand or knee coming near you. Remember that both Judo, which BJJ derives from, and wrestling are competitive sports first with these methods obviously removed.

This is what always irritated me about the 'BJJ invades Judo school and taps people' vids. You have the usual commentary by BJJ guy "Judoka gets the throw... but then the fight doesn't end like in Judo rules so we keep going, and eventually I secure the submission". Well what about if you spar randori on a wooden floor? Then the guy who gets thrown may not get up which is the idea and why a throw is an ippon in Judo and wrestling.

Regarding your question, let's see my old favourite Scarf hold.
View attachment 1016560
Standard control in Judo and Sambo, flows from a throw and can lead to neck cranks and arm triangle choke. Most importantly it's also safe from groin attacks and also largely from eye gouging apart from the opponents free arm but it can be minimised with putting the head down to apply pressure.
According to the BJJ school of thought though, it's a liability because 'you can get your back taken' (not true if done properly).
So they much prefer this, a standard side control to transition from.View attachment 1016561

As is clearly visible though, not only is your groin now easily in reach of the opponents hand, you head can also easily be gouged by the other hand. It's a much less safe position from a self defence perspective (aside from the fact your head is also facing down reducing visibility of surroundings).
So this is just one example why the rules set overlooks obvious dangers and directs the sport in a potentially less realistic way.

My entire argument has been that the trained grappler will beat the untrained grappler if they both have access to groin shots and eye pokes. I have said this in nearly every post I have made. I expanded that to include that the grappler would be able to defend themselves better from these attacks and use the untrained persons attacks to sweep and attack them back using these techniques. I have been pretty clear that's my position.

In your MMA example with the groin shot causing so much damage, it's because they are not attempting to defend it. They don't expect a shot to the groin. Same goes for a grappling match. My argument is that the trained person, who knows this might be the case has a distinctive advantage over the untrained person who only has groin and eye gouges as their means of attack. Simple adjustments from their knowledge of training means they can protect themselves. Groinshot guru doesn't have that option and is only working off theoretical knowledge cause you can't spar those techniques anymore than grappler can just by thinking about it during a roll.

Kesa gatame is a specialist position and works well in Judo because you can't strike and eye gouge. You tie yourself into a pin you can't exit from easily. To attack you need to release the hand right near your eyes and groin or give up positon. If you go for the armbar with your legs, you again present your groin more than guard. You have no real mobility and can't defend from knees to the spine and back. Spazzy white belts try the old spinal knee escape all the time. It's a rare move in MMA for a reason and usually only seen in women's MMA with a major strength disparity. All positions can work though and I hate getting stuck under a heavy guy in the gi there. It's one of the few positions I think eye gouges could really help you escape though as a legit strategy.

Side control isn't held like that anymore. The picture also shows someone with frames in which beginners don;t understand for ages. A proper side control that clears the close arm and is done up on the toes is impossible to groin strike/grab from.

I want to clarify one more time my entire argument is based on the topic of the thread being untrained person using eye gouging etc vs trained grappler. I think the trained grappler could defend most of these attacks without using them if skill is sufficient or they train MMA and are aware of strikes.

 

[HunterAcosta]

Not gonna lie, that was a slick submission and I had no idea you could actually get enough knee torque from the leg grapevine itself from mount to get a sub.

That said, I think you are arguing a different point. No one is disputing that the skilled grappler can do the same dirty tactics from a better position and also defend them better. The main issue though is that if said tactics are done first, they can be a fight ender regardless of who does them. This is why they can have an equalising effect. We have seen top MMA fighters writhing on the floor in agony for minutes, following taking a clean hit to the groin through a protective cup. Those moves wouldnt require excessive skills than you see outside the bar. So if your grappling habits put in danger of this, then the untrained guy may just take the opportunity first and that would be it.

Also there is the related question, what about if it was two relatively knowledgeable grapplers both utilising such tactics in a no rules situation? That is interesting in that they could use these tactics to prevent the getting of certain positions or to end it outright.




I mean you get a sense quite quickly when you roll with this in mind about where is safe, and where you wouldn't want a stray hand or knee coming near you. Remember that both Judo, which BJJ derives from, and wrestling are competitive sports first with these methods obviously removed.

This is what always irritated me about the 'BJJ invades Judo school and taps people' vids. You have the usual commentary by BJJ guy "Judoka gets the throw... but then the fight doesn't end like in Judo rules so we keep going, and eventually I secure the submission". Well what about if you spar randori on a wooden floor? Then the guy who gets thrown may not get up which is the idea and why a throw is an ippon in Judo and wrestling.

Regarding your question, let's see my old favourite Scarf hold.
View attachment 1016560
Standard control in Judo and Sambo, flows from a throw and can lead to neck cranks and arm triangle choke. Most importantly it's also safe from groin attacks and also largely from eye gouging apart from the opponents free arm but it can be minimised with putting the head down to apply pressure.
According to the BJJ school of thought though, it's a liability because 'you can get your back taken' (not true if done properly).
So they much prefer this, a standard side control to transition from.View attachment 1016561

As is clearly visible though, not only is your groin now easily in reach of the opponents hand, you head can also easily be gouged by the other hand. It's a much less safe position from a self defence perspective (aside from the fact your head is also facing down reducing visibility of surroundings).
So this is just one example why the rules set overlooks obvious dangers and directs the sport in a potentially less realistic way.

That is correct but side control with knees allowed to head of grounded opponent changes game also . Guy reached for my groin while I hold him in side control he’s eating a hard knee or 10 to his temple . He’ll pull that hand back to defend his he or he’ll be out . See Mark Coleman in Pride against Igor . Also I could dig my chin into his eye socket ( see Mark Kerr vs Dan Bobish In early UFC) and smash his eyeball to jelly . I would say that side control has more striking options than a scarf hold . Of course , this is all based on rule set and in the streets of course , you wanna watch out for multiple attackers and a knife . If dude has a knife , either scarf hold or side control can get you stabbed up .

 

[maximus__]

That is correct but side control with knees allowed to head of grounded opponent changes game also . Guy reached for my groin while I hold him in side control he’s eating a hard knee or 10 to his temple . He’ll pull that hand back to defend his he or he’ll be out . See Mark Coleman in Pride against Igor . Also I could dig my chin into his eye socket ( see Mark Kerr vs Dan Bobish In early UFC) and smash his eyeball to jelly . I would say that side control has more striking options than a scarf hold . Of course , this is all based on rule set and in the streets of course , you wanna watch out for multiple attackers and a knife . If dude has a knife , either scarf hold or side control can get you stabbed up .

This. They had to adjust the rules in MMA purely because Mark Coleman took top position and was headbutting everyone. He knew enough to stay safe, used his grappling and was able to then land what is an illegal shot these days without hurting himself.That was during an era when nearly anything was allowed and did happen during these fights.

In comparison Joe Son took 20 groin shots and just kept chilling with a shitty headlock not knowing it was the wrong side for a guillotine.. He eventually tapped to a forearm to the face over those shots. Though it was probably a consideration in why he did tap.



Anything where you fully commit yourself to a position with no escape on the ground is a death sentence. Kesa gatame is basically that position. You can't scramble well, big powerful people can power you off and you have minimal follow up. Mount, Side Control, North South, Back control all allow you to follow that powerful person and transition or escape if needed by just standing up.

 

[DoctorTaco]

My entire argument has been that the trained grappler will beat the untrained grappler if they both have access to groin shots and eye pokes. I have said this in nearly every post I have made. I expanded that to include that the grappler would be able to defend themselves better from these attacks and use the untrained persons attacks to sweep and attack them back using these techniques. I have been pretty clear that's my position.

In your MMA example with the groin shot causing so much damage, it's because they are not attempting to defend it. They don't expect a shot to the groin. Same goes for a grappling match. My argument is that the trained person, who knows this might be the case has a distinctive advantage over the untrained person who only has groin and eye gouges as their means of attack. Simple adjustments from their knowledge of training means they can protect themselves. Groinshot guru doesn't have that option and is only working off theoretical knowledge cause you can't spar those techniques anymore than grappler can just by thinking about it during a roll.

Kesa gatame is a specialist position and works well in Judo because you can't strike and eye gouge. You tie yourself into a pin you can't exit from easily. To attack you need to release the hand right near your eyes and groin or give up positon. If you go for the armbar with your legs, you again present your groin more than guard. You have no real mobility and can't defend from knees to the spine and back. Spazzy white belts try the old spinal knee escape all the time. It's a rare move in MMA for a reason and usually only seen in women's MMA with a major strength disparity. All positions can work though and I hate getting stuck under a heavy guy in the gi there. It's one of the few positions I think eye gouges could really help you escape though as a legit strategy.

Side control isn't held like that anymore. The picture also shows someone with frames in which beginners don;t understand for ages. A proper side control that clears the close arm and is done up on the toes is impossible to groin strike/grab from.

I want to clarify one more time my entire argument is based on the topic of the thread being untrained person using eye gouging etc vs trained grappler. I think the trained grappler could defend most of these attacks without using them if skill is sufficient or they train MMA and are aware of strikes.

You’re wasting your time with trying to convince the “master” of anything logical or practical, fyi.

 

[maximus__]

You’re wasting your time with trying to convince the “master” of anything logical or practical, fyi.

Nah not trying to convince him of anything. I genuinely enjoy talking about this stuff. I worked out that the knowledge may be a touch lacking, in terms of a modern grappling game, pretty early and have floated in and out of this forum in my time at Sherdog.

 

[empsim]

Of course some random dummy is not gonna beat a trained grappler with eye gouging but it's still very effective.

Look at the KOTS fights where somewhat trained fighters go with no rules. They stopped paying prize money for eye gouging because too many fights were won with it.

 

[winterbike]

You’re wasting your time with trying to convince the “master” of anything logical or practical, fyi.

That guy still posts here? You guys are courageous, I blocked him long ago.

 

[DoctorTaco]

That guy still posts here? I blocked him long ago.

His e-cardio and e-chin are legendary. The dude gets punted around any forum he posts in and still comes back for more.

 

[koquerelle]

I'm sure a grappler can get his eyes gouged. One fight is hardly the proof you think it is. That being said, I imagine it's a great way to piss off a grappler and get an arm broken.

 

[shockwave kicker]

Why wasn't eye gouging legal in UFC 1 if it was supposed to be no holds barred.

 

[TheMaster]

You’re wasting your time with trying to convince the “master” of anything logical or practical, fyi.

Why is it every time I see a post of yours now, I hear this soundtrack?




Seriously, if you ate any more crow this year it would be very unhealthy

 

[maximus__]

That guy still posts here? You guys are courageous, I blocked him long ago.

@DoctorTaco I miss Dan the wolf man...

Here's 5000 techniques I filmed 6 years ago after doing a random gym drop in. Somebody did it in a fight today and I have this picture when I was in the same town as them. Therefore I taught them this technique. Here is me sparring with atomweight world champion of regional females org. I am doing stupid things whilst they just stare at me and try not to get injured by the old man spaz. Buy my instructional.

 

[maximus__]

Why wasn't eye gouging legal in UFC 1 if it was supposed to be no holds barred.

No eye gouging and no biting. Everything else was allowed.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Bas Rutten once had an argument with a, "Self Defence Expert" who claimed RNC's wouldn't work on him because he'd just gouge the opponent's eyes out. Bas responded,

"OK, let's try it. I'll put you in an RNC, and you can try to gouge my eyes out. But fair warning: the moment your thumbs come anywhere near my eyes, I'll break your fucking neck".

The Self Defence guy declined Bas' kind offer.

 

[DoctorTaco]

@DoctorTaco I miss Dan the wolf man...

Here's 5000 techniques I filmed 6 years ago after doing a random gym drop in. Somebody did it in a fight today and I have this picture when I was in the same town as them. Therefore I taught them this technique. Here is me sparring with atomweight world champion of regional females org. I am doing stupid things whilst they just stare at me and try not to get injured by the old man spaz. Buy my instructional.

I can’t mince words since there’s a mod who still backs Dan’s nonsense, so without much detail I’ll say that after Dan got banned for calling the owner of the gym I work at about this time a few years back, it was right before our staff Christmas dinner.

When my boss/head coach brought the phone call up everyone had a laugh and stories of Dan were exchanged for a few minutes.

 

[maximus__]

I can’t mince words since there’s a mod who still backs Dan’s nonsense, so without much detail I’ll say that after Dan got banned for calling the owner of the gym I work at about this time a few years back, it was right before our staff Christmas dinner.

When my boss/head coach brought the phone call up everyone had a laugh and stories of Dan were exchanged for a few minutes.

Oh shit. I didn't realise he doxed his way off the forum. I thought it was when he picked a fight with Josh Barnett who called out his fake claims of lineage for catch.