Evangelical vs Catholic (old school) view on Jews?

[Rod1]

I dont know if this is WR or Mayberry since its going to be about anecdotes, not really a serious discussion.

Anyway this comes from a conversation i was having with my wife about her late grandma (she was born in 1919) who was a devout catholic.

She once told me that she was watching the news with her back in the early 2000s (second intifada) and something about a suicide attack in Israel was mentioned.

Now a regular person would think "That's messed up" but my wife tells me her grandma said "These people are cursed to never know peace because of what they did to Jesus". I grew up as a catholic but as a second vatican council catholic so did my mom who goes to church all the time and i never heard anything about jews being cursed for killing Jesus or anything like that.

I know several protestant churches think highly of jews which i find weird since i would assume fundamentalists would be even more bitter about it.

 

[Gunny]

I’m not particularly religious but grew up evangelical and my grandparents were prolific church planners. My grandparents, parents, imediate and extended family and church were all very pro-Jew. I married an observant Jew and am raising a family of Jewish children. I have never received even a hint of negativity from my side of the family about that decision.

It’s common for people from the left to assume that evangelical pro-Jewish sentiment is all about revelation theology. That may figure in at a certain level but it a very minor sub-plot to the story. Two far greater factors in the sentiment are scripture and personal admiration. Since the evangelical movement is more scripture based than old Catholicism, the former doesn’t find the rational basis for anti-semitism which, in old times, was more of a papal/political phenomenon. Then there’s the fact that evangelicals tend to look at the Jewish diaspora experience throughout the millennia and find Jews, as a people, to be - well lets just say, Christlike

 

[Rod1]

It’s common for people from the left to assume that evangelical pro-Jewish sentiment is all about revelation theology. That may figure in at a certain level but it a very minor sub-plot to the story. Two far greater factors in the sentiment are scripture and personal admiration. Since the evangelical movement is more scripture based than old Catholicism, the former doesn’t find the rational basis for anti-semitism which, in old times, was more of a papal/political phenomenon. Then there’s the fact that evangelicals tend to look at the Jewish diaspora experience throughout the millennia and find Jews, as a people, to be - well lets just say, Christlike

The scripture goes has pharisees killing and denying Jesus, rabbinical judaism styles itself as the succesor of pharisees.

And while pagans who never heard of Jesus tend to get a pass, those that know about Jesus and deny him end up in a not-so-nice place.

You are right in the sense that catholics seem to be less constrained by scripture, the fact that catholics today dont see jews as apostates and unbelievers is i think evidence of that.

 

[Gunny]

The scripture goes has pharisees killing and denying Jesus, rabbinical judaism styles itself as the succesor of pharisees.

And while pagans who never heard of Jesus tend to get a pass, those that know about Jesus and deny him end up in a not-so-nice place.

The scripture has many thing that can seem at odd with each other depending on your interpretation. Since you asked the question, I’m sharing that pro-Jewish evangelicals aren’t embracing the interpretation that you’re putting forth

 

[Rod1]

The scripture has many thing that can seem at odd with each other depending on your interpretation. Since you asked the question, I’m sharing with you that pro-Jewish evangelicals aren’t embracing the interpretation that you’re putting forth

I appreciate your input and certainly im not making a case eitherway, im merely interested in the phenomena. I find the whole "only Jesus can save you" part of christianity to be off-putting in the first place.

But since you seem to know personally about judaism and evangelism, can you answer me this question.

How do modern jews see the Pharisees? In the gospel they are seen as villains, but in Judaism they are respected.

How do evangelicals see the Pharisees? and do they make a connection between them and rabbinical judaism?

 

[Renard]

I found some old letters from the sisters of my great grandmother, who were Catholics. They would write to high ranking government officials warning them about the menace of the Jews, among many other things. In one letter they warned of the media brainwashing our children and that the "long arms of the Jews" reached everywhere. That gave me a good chuckle. It's funny though, the idea of Jews controlling the media is still around today, they wrote that circa 1950.

 

[Rod1]

I found some old letters from the sisters of my great grandmother, who were Catholics. They would write to high ranking government officials warning them about the menace of the Jews, among many other things. In one letter they warned of the media brainwashing our children and that the "long arms of the Jews" reached everywhere. That gave me a good chuckle. It's funny though, the idea of Jews controlling the media is still around today, they wrote that circa 1950.

Thats so fucked up and hilarious at the same time, where are you from?

 

[redwire]

The scripture goes has pharisees killing and denying Jesus, rabbinical judaism styles itself as the succesor of pharisees.

And while pagans who never heard of Jesus tend to get a pass, those that know about Jesus and deny him end up in a not-so-nice place.

You are right in the sense that catholics seem to be less constrained by scripture, the fact that catholics today dont see jews as apostates and unbelievers is i think evidence of that.

Never understood the whole 'Jews killed Jesus' thing. It always seemed obvious to me that it was the Romans.

If I call a cop and tell them that I want Bob dead and the cop shrugs and says 'OK' and pops him, I'm pretty sure the cop goes to jail. Maybe I get a slap on the wrist. Similarly, the biblical Jews told the authorities they wanted Jesus dead, and the Romans were like "I'd rather not, but if that's what you really want, sure, nail him up". Maybe it's a 20/80 thing, dunno, but the Romans should get the biggest part of the blame.

Yeah, I know, Pilot washed his hands and all that. Weak...

 

[deltapapha]

I dont know if this is WR or Mayberry since its going to be about anecdotes, not really a serious discussion.

Anyway this comes from a conversation i was having with my wife about her late grandma (she was born in 1919) who was a devout catholic.

She once told me that she was watching the news with her back in the early 2000s (second intifada) and something about a suicide attack in Israel was mentioned.

Now a regular person would think "That's messed up" but my wife tells me her grandma said "These people are cursed to never know peace because of what they did to Jesus". I grew up as a catholic but as a second vatican council catholic so did my mom who goes to church all the time and i never heard anything about jews being cursed for killing Jesus or anything like that.

I know several protestant churches think highly of jews which i find weird since i would assume fundamentalists would be even more bitter about it.

whether the WR would be into this topic or not, Church-Jew relations since the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem is fascinating and complex. The founding document of Western antisemitism is John Chrysostom's Adversus Judaeos a "series of fourth century homilies by John Chrysostom."

Whatever legitimate motives Chrysostom may have had in composing and delivering the homilies, much of the content of it is vile and reprehensible. I could comment a lot on this topic but don't have time at the moment.

Adversus Judaeos

 

[Rod1]

Never understood the whole 'Jews killed Jesus' thing. It always seemed obvious to me that it was the Romans.

If I call a cop and tell them that I want Bob dead and the cop shrugs and says 'OK' and pops him, I'm pretty sure the cop goes to jail. Maybe I get a slap on the wrist. Similarly, the biblical Jews told the authorities they wanted Jesus dead, and the Romans were like "I'd rather not, but if that's what you really want, sure, nail him up". Maybe it's a 20/80 thing, dunno, but the Romans should get the biggest part of the blame.

Yeah, I know, Pilot washed his hands and all that. Weak...

24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.”c

25All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

26So Pilate released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged and handed Him over to be crucified.

http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/27.htm

 

[LMP]

A lot of the evangelical believe heavily in Revelation. Israel becoming a nation and standing against the rest of the world before the return of Christ. This is why so many favor Israel so heavily and support Israel unconditionally.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

It was zionist infiltration of american churches. Early protestants were also anti-jewish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
Here, from Marthin Luther.

Now, it's important to note the difference between this kind of anti-semitism and racial/nazi antisemitism.
Christians were against the jewish religion because Jews know about Jesus and Christianity and reject it. And they also killed Jesus. The good jews like Paul converted to Christianity.
The same applies in Islam, muslims don't hate racial jews, they hate people that practice judaism because they are rejecting Mohammed's message, although they're given a slight pass due to being people of the book, they are killed later on.

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Nazi antisemitism has little to do with religion. Being jewish is a race, if your father is jewish but your mother is not you're not a jew according to other jews but you be considered a Mischling in the third reich if you're born before 1936 and a jew if later and subjected to discrimination. It didn't matter if you converted later on to christianity or islam or whatever.

 

[Gunny]

I appreciate your input and certainly im not making a case eitherway, im merely interested in the phenomena. I find the whole "only Jesus can save you" part of christianity to be off-putting in the first place.

But since you seem to know personally about judaism and evangelism, can you answer me this question.

How do modern jews see the Pharisees? In the gospel they are seen as villains, but in Judaism they are respected.

How do evangelicals see the Pharisees? and do they make a connection between them and rabbinical judaism?

To vastly overgeneralize, I would say that most modern Jews don't realize that their faith is the legacy of the Pharisees - even though that’s a concrete historical fact. In conversations I have suggested to many Jewish friends and family members that their religion - Pharisee/Rabbinical Judaism - is, in many ways, a separate faith from the temple Judaism of the bible and almost all will have no idea what to say or think about the statement. They aren't closed or defensive about the idea, they've just never considered it. Even the word Pharisees isn't that common in Judaism and, historically speaking, words like Sages and Rabbis are used directly in its place. Christians are far more tuned into the term and distinction as it figures so heavily in the Gospels. You almost have to be outside of Judaism to have the frame of reference.


Before I go on, I should say that my experience with and description of Evangelicalism is the Northern/Midwestern variety - i.e. the Billy Graham stripe. I don't know if this goes for the harsh Hell fire and Brimstone types, in fact I would say it almost certainly doesn't. But since your thread is specifically about pro-Jewish Evangelical sentiment think my explanation here is on pretty solid footing. Evangelicals definitely have negative opinions of the biblical Pharisees - finding them particularly guilty of spiritual pride and vanity. But it needs to be understood that that negativity is expressed more as a cautionary tale than an indictment of guilt to be borne by their ancestors. A lot of this can be understood if you can really internalize that Evangelicals earnestly believe the story of the Jews/Israelites is our own story. Going back to your first reply, the idea that any discrete group of modern humans would bear unique responsibility for the death of Christ is anathema on many levels as evangelicals believe and teach that every human who ever existed bears that guilt equally. Any attempt to make even direct members of Jerusalem's 37 AD Sanhedrin, to say nothing of modern Jews, somehow more guilty would be to minimize ones own guilt and a sin of spiritual pride - i.e. the very sin they caution against in their critiques of the Pharisees. To directly answer your last question, Evangelicals tend to be far better read than I think most people realize and most understand the historical lineage from Pharisee to modern rabbinical Judaism but given everything I've said here, you can see how that understanding just doesn't lead to the interpretations that old-school Catholics often held.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Religion makes people retarded...

what else is new?

 

[redwire]

24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.”c

25All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

26So Pilate released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged and handed Him over to be crucified

http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/27.htm

Yep. I get it. From a moral perspective, however, I don't feel that bowing down to a mob should get the Romans off the hook. Plus there's the whole conspiracy saying that the Romans re-wrote this part of the book to make themselves look better and Christianity more palatable once it became the state religion.

My point is, we should all be hating Italians, not Jews.

 

[Rod1]

Yep. I get it. From a moral perspective, however, I don't feel that bowing down to a mob should get the Romans off the hook. Plus there's the whole conspiracy saying that the Romans re-wrote this part of the book to make themselves look better and Christianity more palatable once it became the state religion.

My point is, we should all be hating Italians, not Jews.

Im talking from a biblical perspective.

 

[Rod1]

To vastly overgeneralize, I would say that most modern Jews don't realize that their faith is the legacy of the Pharisees - even though that’s a concrete historical fact. In conversations I have suggested to many Jewish friends and family members that their religion - Pharisee/Rabbinical Judaism - is, in many ways, a separate faith from the temple Judaism of the bible and almost all will have no idea what to say or think about the statement. They aren't closed or defensive about the idea, they've just never considered it. Even the word Pharisees isn't that common in Judaism and, historically speaking, words like Sages and Rabbis are used directly in its place. Christians are far more tuned into the term and distinction as it figures so heavily in the Gospels. You almost have to be outside of Judaism to have the frame of reference.


Before I go on, I should say that my experience with and description of Evangelicalism is the Northern/Midwestern variety - i.e. the Billy Graham stripe. I don't know if this goes for the harsh Hell fire and Brimstone types, in fact I would say it almost certainly doesn't. But since your thread is specifically about pro-Jewish Evangelical sentiment think my explanation here is on pretty solid footing. Evangelicals definitely have negative opinions of the biblical Pharisees - finding them particularly guilty of spiritual pride and vanity. But it needs to be understood that that negativity is expressed more as a cautionary tale than an indictment of guilt to be borne by their ancestors. A lot of this can be understood if you can really internalize that Evangelicals earnestly believe the story of the Jews/Israelites is our own story. Going back to your first reply, the idea that any discrete group of modern humans would bear unique responsibility for the death of Christ is anathema on many levels as evangelicals believe and teach that every human who ever existed bears that guilt equally. Any attempt to make even direct members of Jerusalem's 37 AD Sanhedrin, to say nothing of modern Jews, somehow more guilty would be to minimize ones own guilt and a sin of spiritual pride - i.e. the very sin they caution against in their critiques of the Pharisees. To directly answer your last question, Evangelicals tend to be far better read than I think most people realize and most understand the historical lineage from Pharisee to modern rabbinical Judaism but given everything I've said here, you can see how that understanding just doesn't lead to the interpretations that old-school Catholics often held.

Great post.

Since you said that you find that every human is equally guilty, does that means that you find that humans that have not accepted christ to be living on sin due to said guilt?

 

[ShinkanPo]

I dont know if this is WR or Mayberry since its going to be about anecdotes, not really a serious discussion.

Anyway this comes from a conversation i was having with my wife about her late grandma (she was born in 1919) who was a devout catholic.

She once told me that she was watching the news with her back in the early 2000s (second intifada) and something about a suicide attack in Israel was mentioned.

Now a regular person would think "That's messed up" but my wife tells me her grandma said "These people are cursed to never know peace because of what they did to Jesus". I grew up as a catholic but as a second vatican council catholic so did my mom who goes to church all the time and i never heard anything about jews being cursed for killing Jesus or anything like that.

I know several protestant churches think highly of jews which i find weird since i would assume fundamentalists would be even more bitter about it.

There are different kinds of Fundamentalists some are dumb some are not, The more ignorant once are the ones who wants to hate on anyone slightly different.

I know an old lady who always rants about an American Jew who invests in a Garment factory where my mom used to work in the mid 80s The old lady who wears a rosary would mention that Hudyo (Jews) as she calls them will one day pay for their arrogance.

 

[Black Helicopters]

You’re wife’s grandma is redpilled af

 

[PolishHeadlock]

All I know is my fiance is Lutheran and has been trying to get me to convert.

So I found out this Martin Lutheran character wrote a book called On the Jews and Their Lies.

Anyway, I'm Lutheran now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies