Escaping a carry / slams

[Grady]

More of a wrestling question, but...

If an opponent manages to get you into a fireman's carry, when you are draped over his shoulders and he in controlling your complete bodyweight and legs, how is this best escaped? Is there an escape or do you just prepare as best you can for the inevitable slam?

For example: Matt Hughes is able to slam his opponents effectively once in this position. It sucks to have your head brought down with that kind of force.

What can be done (non-striking countermeasures)?

 

[RetiredWisFighter]

well if we are talking sub wrestling, if someone starts setting me up for a slam i position my body so when i hit the ground im ready to slap on some sort of sub. as for straight wrestling i have no clue

 

[Gaylon Cooper]

More of a wrestling question, but...

If an opponent manages to get you into a fireman's carry, when you are draped over his shoulders and he in controlling your complete bodyweight and legs, how is this best escaped? Is there an escape or do you just prepare as best you can for the inevitable slam?

For example: Matt Hughes is able to slam his opponents effectively once in this position. It sucks to have your head brought down with that kind of force.

What can be done (non-striking countermeasures)?

Well unless he stands up the slam will not be that hard. and if he is still kneeling just sprawl hard it will make you harder to lift or to tip over.

 

[knoxpk]

yep hard sprawl.

 

[colinm]

from a fireman's carry? slap on a motherfuckin crucifix and the options are infinite!!! look at the reverse omoplata thread or aesopian's other thread "new techniques at gracie barra tampa" or something like that.

 

[Grady]

from a fireman's carry? slap on a motherfuckin crucifix and the options are infinite!!! look at the reverse omoplata thread or aesopian's other thread "new techniques at gracie barra tampa" or something like that.

Thanks Colinm. I checked out that thread, it was helpful.

My original question was a bit more geared to an escape than a BJJ move...although a fast sub might have that effect at the very least.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Avoiding the takedown all starts with a sprawl or if in a clinch, it starts with your center of gravity

 

[KDawg]

from a fireman's carry? slap on a motherfuckin crucifix and the options are infinite!!! look at the reverse omoplata thread or aesopian's other thread "new techniques at gracie barra tampa" or something like that.

I don't think that you'd have any chance at all in applying a crucifix to a good fireman's. Fireman's carries, when done properly, are explosive and dynamic. If you thought about crucifixing, your mind would be off of the sprawl and you'd be on your back faster than a hooker in Vegas.

I think that the creator of the thread should follow the first suggestion: sprawl as soon as their level drops, control the head and arm, then work for rear mount.

 

[Grady]

I don't think that you'd have any chance at all in applying a crucifix to a good fireman's. Fireman's carries, when done properly, are explosive and dynamic. If you thought about crucifixing, your mind would be off of the sprawl and you'd be on your back faster than a hooker in Vegas.

I think that the creator of the thread should follow the first suggestion: sprawl as soon as their level drops, control the head and arm, then work for rear mount.

I started the thread because I was watching the Matt Hughes vs Carlos Newton KO slam and remembered a time a friend and I were practicing some grappling & wrestling moves. (Keep in mind my friend is only about 5'8" 180 and I am 6'3" 215, but he is very strong). My friend decided to try for non-stop takedowns during one point in the practice, and I obliged, and worked mainly defense for a while. For a long time I was having a lot of fun thwarting his takedown attempts mainly by sprawling a bit, or pushing him down and moving back, and just simply powering out of it due to my size advantage. Anyway, just for the fun of it, at one point I actually tried to grab both of his legs quickly from over his back when he went for a double leg, and missed the shot, and he obviously hauled my ass in the air in the fireman's. He could have slammed me pretty good right after if he wanted to, and it wasn't obvious to me how to force him to drop me (without striking, obviously).

I then thought about the recent fight on TUF2, Rashad vs. Mike Whitehead. Mike got Rashad in the fireman's carry, and Rashad managed to throw them both off balance enough to wriggle out of it. Now I don't have that one on tape, and I think Rashad got out mainly due to Whitehead being totally gassed, no special move, but made me wonder if there was any real escape technique that could be applied once you were already in a fireman's carry.

Obviously, I know that the best defense for this is to not let it happen in the first place, but I am interested in escape options, if any exist (aside from a very fast BJJ moves already mentioned).

 

[Bubble Boy]

I think once you're heaved up over someones shoulder (ala Hughes) it's pretty much all over.
As Killa_Cs said...

well if we are talking sub wrestling, if someone starts setting me up for a slam i position my body so when i hit the ground im ready to slap on some sort of sub.

 

[pitviper259]

I started the thread because I was watching the Matt Hughes vs Carlos Newton KO slam and remembered a time a friend and I were practicing some grappling & wrestling moves. (Keep in mind my friend is only about 5'8" 180 and I am 6'3" 215, but he is very strong). My friend decided to try for non-stop takedowns during one point in the practice, and I obliged, and worked mainly defense for a while. For a long time I was having a lot of fun thwarting his takedown attempts mainly by sprawling a bit, or pushing him down and moving back, and just simply powering out of it due to my size advantage. Anyway, just for the fun of it, at one point I actually tried to grab both of his legs quickly from over his back when he went for a double leg, and missed the shot, and he obviously hauled my ass in the air in the fireman's. He could have slammed me pretty good right after if he wanted to, and it wasn't obvious to me how to force him to drop me (without striking, obviously).

I then thought about the recent fight on TUF2, Rashad vs. Mike Whitehead. Mike got Rashad in the fireman's carry, and Rashad managed to throw them both off balance enough to wriggle out of it. Now I don't have that one on tape, and I think Rashad got out mainly due to Whitehead being totally gassed, no special move, but made me wonder if there was any real escape technique that could be applied once you were already in a fireman's carry.

Obviously, I know that the best defense for this is to not let it happen in the first place, but I am interested in escape options, if any exist (aside from a very fast BJJ moves already mentioned).

ummm from a wrestlers point of view, ive never heard this called a firemans carry this is called a double leg lift, a firemans carry is when there whole body is draped across both of your shoulders with one arm trapped under yours, however the way your taught not to get slammed is to sprawl as hard as you can. Often you'll be told "dick in the dirt" cause the closer to the ground your hips are.... the harder it is for him to get you up in the air

 

[OpethDrums]

throw yourself away from him with all your might and land flat on your face

 

[colinm]

I don't think that you'd have any chance at all in applying a crucifix to a good fireman's. Fireman's carries, when done properly, are explosive and dynamic. If you thought about crucifixing, your mind would be off of the sprawl and you'd be on your back faster than a hooker in Vegas.

I think that the creator of the thread should follow the first suggestion: sprawl as soon as their level drops, control the head and arm, then work for rear mount.

ermmmmm, it doesnt matter if you get put on your back as long as you still have the hold (ever seen that gary goodridge fight where he drops like 10 elbows on some poor s.o.b. from this position, on his back?), which the guy practically puts himself in...you still have a rear choke and several neck cranks.


edit: on a side note, i don't think the original poster is really talking about a fireman's carry.

 

[triso]

I've never heard of any reversals from the Double Leg Lift slam, but if anyone knows some, please post them.

well if we are talking sub wrestling, if someone starts setting me up for a slam i position my body so when i hit the ground im ready to slap on some sort of sub.

This has always been my method in the past as well. Make sure you land properly so as to absorb at least some of the impact, and position yourself and be ready to go straight to a sub to catch them off guard.

 

[Bubble Boy]

ummm from a wrestlers point of view, ive never heard this called a firemans carry this is called a double leg lift, a firemans carry is when there whole body is draped across both of your shoulders with one arm trapped under yours

Agreed. Grady, you're describing the double leg lift, not the firemans carry. Here's what a firemans carry (kata guruma in Judo) looks like:

 

[KDawg]

ermmmmm, it doesnt matter if you get put on your back as long as you still have the hold (ever seen that gary goodridge fight where he drops like 10 elbows on some poor s.o.b. from this position, on his back?), which the guy practically puts himself in...you still have a rear choke and several neck cranks.


edit: on a side note, i don't think the original poster is really talking about a fireman's carry.

Yeah, I think we are a little off topic.

But, Goodrich's thing wasn't a matter of blocking a fireman's... he just kind of wound up in a crucifix position and went "HUH... well fuck! His head is right there... I wonder if I can render him unconscious with an onslaught of elbows?"

A fireman's carry creates separation, impact, then opportunity for attack. OR, by an expert user, a throw into side control or north south.

I see how you are trying to make your argument, but there is no way in hell that you would be able to adapt and adjust to a fireman's, *midair* mind you, and end up with a crucifix. It just won't happen----- unless you are Genki Sudo or Rumina Sato, or are capable of doing submissions at 100 miles per hour like, honestly, only a handful of people in the world are.

 

[Grady]

Agreed. Grady, you're describing the double leg lift, not the firemans carry.

BB, you're right, my error.

 

[NJCarder]

Ive found through bouncing and high school wrestling that when you are lifted up your going to get dropped...what you have to think about is whats gonna happen after the slam...your either going to get knocked out (whcih u have no control over if the slams gonna knock u out its gonna knock u out) or your going to get slammed and he's gonna get good position...what i do is when they lift me...just start rocking like your crazy...i know a lot of people on here are thinking but ur gonna end up getin dropped...yes yes you are but your not gonna get dropped when he wants to drop you...if you get him to drop you early he's not going to be able to get the positioning he wants...really with the double leg just look for mistakes...if he double legs you like a football tackle and spreads his legs too much i'd just drive my legs up as high as i can and uhhh play Median between the two high ways if you know what i mean...i think this applies more to a street fight/bar fight then anyting else but id ont see why if Matt Hughes lifts you up you don't rock like a mad man and just thrash around