Encountering TMA cats that are dissing MMA/BJJ

I wasn't saying what I said as a way to disparage BJJ in anyway. Just an observation I had based on all the self defense/street fighting threads here and the debating done between BJJ people here on things like worm guard, guard of galaxies, berimbolo, double jumping guard pulls and all that stuff.

I know a number of schools where they only do nogi self defense or mma grappling. None of them claim BJJ, even if the instructor has a good rank. They just call it submission grappling.

I think GC will stay a part of BJJ schools and become a more common class, and people not satisfied with BJJ tactics, clothing or ranking will continue to run to submission grappling.
 
I think GC will stay a part of BJJ schools and become a more common class, and people not satisfied with BJJ tactics, clothing or ranking will continue to run to submission grappling.

I agree, because more often than not it just falls into part of a semantic argument between styles. The effectiveness of a technique regardless of their origin. (BJJ, Submission Grappling, or Karate) will be judged on the successful or unsuccessful application when it's performed under duress.
 
the last two posts perfectly illustrate my point about bashing being caused by a lack of understanding. The tma people who say that mma/bjj do not develop character have no understanding of mma/bjj, but the same is true in reverse. Both of you are making assumptions about how tmaists train, and using that to draw the conclusion that tmas do not develop character. It's exactly the same thing.
+1 .
 
BJJ is starting to split into two distinct cultures it looks like IMO.

The Gracie JiuJitsu side pushing "Gracie Combatives" with street self defense and always talking about grand master Helio.

Then the sport Jiujitsu side pushing technical training geared only towards sport with weird styles that have very little resemblance to the BJJ shown in early Vale Tudo and NHB fighting.

I'm sure in another 10-15 years each of these sides will be talking about each other the same way they talk about traditional arts today.

I think this started a while back in Brazil even. Between Helio/Rorian's philosophy and Carlos/Carlos Jr's philosophy and continues today with Gracie Jiu Jitsu compared to Gracie Barra even.
 
This is a very crucial point that hits at one of the biggest fallacies of TMA's. Claiming to achieve discipline through the pageantry of bowing and ape-ing some superficial "tradition" is like saying that the kindest person on Earth is the hostess at Olive Garden because she gives you a fake smile and only speaks in courteous phrases.

Have you ever done TMA stuff?

Believe me when I say the TKD schools in Korea will literally BEAT respect for elders and others into you.
 
Both of you are making assumptions about how TMAists train, and using that to draw the conclusion that TMAs do not develop character.

Wrong on both counts. I'm making no assumptions. I've done my fair share of TMA's and consider them to have certain merits. And I never said that TMA's do not develop character, just that BJJ develops something different than arts that punch only air.
 
I disagree with the notion that BJJ does not build character. I think it does so more than the majority of the TMA's.

Being put in a position where you are utterly defeated over and over and continually striving to overcome it by coming back day after day, year after year until you start becoming the one that dominates others on the mat builds a certain type of character that punching at air, breaking boards, yelling loudly and replicating traditions from another cultures alone does not.

And you also got those "big fish in small pond" folks who are big-shots in their gym and show incredible arrogance because of it.

Stop thinking that certain things are representative of the whole. It does no you good.
 
Have you ever done TMA stuff?

Believe me when I say the TKD schools in Korea will literally BEAT respect for elders and others into you.
Don't take this the wrong way man but I've actually known several Korean TKD practitioners and American ones personally and (again not trying to imply anything negative) they all turned out to be gay or bisexual, or they were females...

Just sayin....
 
Don't take this the wrong way man but I've actually known several Korean TKD practitioners and American ones personally and (again not trying to imply anything negative) they all turned out to be gay or bisexual, or they were females...

Just sayin....

I... don't see the point of what you wrote.

Unless you think beating people with a giant stick is something gays or bisexuals do.
 
People usually make the case against TMAs as lack of sparring and therefore effectiveness.

But in reality many of their techniques simply are not sound and do not work. They were invented at a time when nobody knew any better than that and they never fought different styles so it was not exposed.

Maybe that is a bad attitude but look at the Karate or Kung Fu forms and tell me how any of that is sound boxing, it has more holes than swiss cheese.

Sparring between different styles exposes the fundamental weaknesses, these guys have to change and combine different forms of fighting to get the best style and MMA is born.

At the end of the day, why not train something that has proven to be fundamentally sound and constantly tested?
 
People usually make the case against TMAs as lack of sparring and therefore effectiveness.

But in reality many of their techniques simply are not sound and do not work. They were invented at a time when nobody knew any better than that and they never fought different styles so it was not exposed.

Maybe that is a bad attitude but look at the Karate or Kung Fu forms and tell me how any of that is sound boxing, it has more holes than swiss cheese.

Sparring between different styles exposes the fundamental weaknesses, these guys have to change and combine different forms of fighting to get the best style and MMA is born.

At the end of the day, why not train something that has proven to be fundamentally sound and constantly tested?
clearly you never heard of enshin or kyokushin, nuff said.
 
I'm just going to make my usual statement that all discussions about TMAs in general is useless because it's not a category that enables useful and productive discussion. Depending on who you ask, TMA can be Aikido, Kyokushin, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Judo, MT og American Kempo. That's not a useful analytical category.

Seriously, read this thread and see how many of the arguments are people disagreeing with statements because they know of an art it doesn't apply to. And they are often right.

Edit: Going on vacation. See you in August, f12!
 
clearly you never heard of enshin or kyokushin, nuff said.

I've seen some of those tournaments, those are tough guys but nobody really uses the techniques in the Kata forms.

Do you use the low block and chamber your punch at the waist while fighting like a robot?

I don't understand why someone would choose that over Muay Thai.
 
Most Kyokushin schools also spar with no hand strikes to the head, which can lead to some seriously bad habits for a stand-up art. There is a kind of artificiality to those Kyokushin knockdown tournaments, with body-punching exchanges that would never happen if they just allowed punches to the head. Wild to watch, though.

And it does breed very tough guys who transition pretty easily to kickboxing once they alter their training.
 
I... don't see the point of what you wrote.

Unless you think beating people with a giant stick is something gays or bisexuals do.

I am bi and beat people with a big stick if you know what I mean.
 
People usually make the case against TMAs as lack of sparring and therefore effectiveness.

But in reality many of their techniques simply are not sound and do not work. They were invented at a time when nobody knew any better than that and they never fought different styles so it was not exposed.

Maybe that is a bad attitude but look at the Karate or Kung Fu forms and tell me how any of that is sound boxing, it has more holes than swiss cheese.

Sparring between different styles exposes the fundamental weaknesses, these guys have to change and combine different forms of fighting to get the best style and MMA is born.

At the end of the day, why not train something that has proven to be fundamentally sound and constantly tested?

This is a solid point. There's all sorts of shit in karate katas and kung fu forms that don't resemble any of the actual techniques they use in sparring. More often than not the people teaching these styles don't even know what the weird shit in the katas is even supposed to represent so they make up stories about it representing fighting multiple opponents, hidden vital point strikes, moves with weapons, etc. Also, there are a limited number of reliable striking techniques (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, front kick, round kick, knees, elbows, defenses, etc.) why not just practice them as is rather than learning dozens of katas with all sorts of weird movements that have limited or unknown applicability?
 
This is what drives me nuts about the "no rules/dirty fighting" crowd.

A boxer practices his right hook day in, day out. He's drilled it on bags, pads, and sparring partners that are fighting back, hard. Some of them are larger, stronger, faster, etc. He's thrown that hook, and connected, hundreds of times, in high-stress competitions where the other guy was trying to take his head off.

He knows that, when necessary, he can rely on that hook.

A judoka practices his O Soto Gari day in, day out. He's drilled it every way possible, shadow uchikomi, to therabands, to throwing partners on the crash-mats. He's smashed heavily resisting opponents with it in randori and competition hundreds of times, usually in a state of extreme stress and exhaustion.

He knows that, when it matters, he can rely in that O Soto Gari.

Some of these TMA/Krav guys read dirty fighting tips from weirdos on the internet. They go to their club and, since they don't spar, they practice these moves on imaginary people they envision in front of them while doing their kata. Sometimes they act like teen-agers and play "pressure-point ass-grab" with each other.

When shit matters, they are going to be relying on techniques that they have literally NEVER pulled off.

It's fucking retarded.

Nice post! It's funny when I ask these TMA cats how do they get good at eye poking and groin grabbing if they can't practice all out on resisting opponents? Then they stuttered and I go "Bluh blah blah?! Cat got your tongue now?!" And then they just usually just shut up and walk away.
 
Anyone ever encounter a traditional martial arts (TMA) cat that likes to diss MMA/BJJ? Things they say are "oh that MMA/BJJ stuff won't work on the street because I can poke and bite and grab their groin, blah blah blah.


Yes I have. And for every one of those, I see 10 MMA/BJJ fans claiming the exact same thing about TMA. Apparently without understanding how diverse a group "TMA" is.
 
Yes I have. And for every one of those, I see 10 MMA/BJJ fans claiming the exact same thing about TMA. Apparently without understanding how diverse a group "TMA" is.

I'd suggest you watch UFC 1-175 and tell me how TMAs stack up to BJJ and later well rounded MMA fighters. MMA practitioners disregarding TMAs is in no way equivalent to TMA guys disregarding MMA. One group has the vast weight of evidence on the side of its view, the other has the assurances of old men in silk pants looking to make a buck.
 
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