Elbow Guard - Golden Age Muay Thai

[ARIZE]

Lead hand under the opposite arm. The elbow of the lead hand made me loose sight of legs/hips of opponent.

I don't know man, it seems to me it has too many disadvantage compared to more simple basic guards. But it was not as bad as I thought. I was specially surprised that I could blast elbows from it.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Lead hand under the opposite arm. The elbow of the lead hand made me loose sight of legs/hips of opponent.

I don't know man, it seems to me it has too many disadvantage compared to more simple basic guards. But it was not as bad as I thought. I was specially surprised that I could blast elbows from it.

Y'see I think there are advantages it has, like being harder to feint out. The traditional guard is obviously fine and I'm not knocking it, but if you predict the wrong punch with that, then you can be out - but with that cross guard, you're fine because it's one size fits all. That being said I think it's all about the fighter, and if you really understand what makes that guard work.

I quite like elbows from it - I think it's definitely something that favours the close range fighter in Muay Thai, a lot of these more block heavy guards do. I tend to think that the traditional high guard is best for long range, which is why you see Kaensak using it at a distance and then when closer quickly blocking in the cross guard or half a cross guard at closer range.

 

[Kickzilla]

Common man... This is sherdg. There is no respect here. Am right and you're wrong and that's it.

Lol..

I fully disagree with that. I cannot think any purpose of jabbing elsewhere than the head. You wont get any points, you put yourself in a very bad position, you wont hurt your opponent, you wont stop him with it if you target the body.

In pure Thai rules you’re right the jab won’t score much, but that IMO isn’t the purpose of the jab. One part is the setup it creates but that’s a very basic perspective I think. I see it as this there are two types of threats in a fight (striking, I won’t speak to grappling), an actual threat and a virtual threat. Just like establishing a teep that makes your opponent respect it you gain a measure of control that previously wasn’t there before your opponent deemed your teep a threat. At that point just raising your knee up (a virtual threat) elicits a reaction from your opponent, a reaction you now have a measure of predictability over..you can start controlling the initiative. A jab that your opponent is forced to respect is going to establish the same sort of initiative and control, and I really believe it doesn’t just apply to boxing

But what’s the point when the teep is your leg, and the leg is stronger, coming from a weird angle and accomplishes a similar thing? Well for one..that’s the beauty of muay thai in my mind, the fact that eight weapons have to be dealt with and adding that much more to your arsenal can only be an advantage that leads to less predictability on your part.

When you suddenly have two effective tools working in tandem you are that much more of a threat both virtual and actual. The other part of the jab is it can control, just like the teep.. jabbing at the chest, neck, shoulders allows you to freeze or push back your opponent, skirting back and forth between far, medium, and close range the jab can become a lever to turn your opponent by leaving it at your opponent’s head while you circle, pivot, move away, or disguise a knee, a clinch entry, a follow up punch or kick, etc.

It’s also faster, delivered with less effort and lets you keep your feet underneath your hips..the implications of that are dynamic in a fight. Not to mention it can also establish your teep that might be getting caught by an opponent who’s good at reading them.

I believe that the teep does a better job than the jab, and can be as versatile. The main purpose of the jab in MT, is to keep your opponents guard high to set up the kicks. It's not for stopping him (teeps and straight knees do a better work). It's not for scoring points. It's not for distance checking. (lows and teeps do that). It's not for doing damage. I also believe a weighted back leg jab is mostly useless in MT, and the occasion to use it very rare. So I cannot see multiple ways to throw them, and I cannot see multiple reasons. If it was boxing, I would fully agree (from the little experience I have in it)

Jabbing effectively to the stomach is a matter of stepping confidently forward with the lead leg, and feinting your opponent’s expectation of where your hand is going. You look your guy in the eye and jab at their gut and they’ll expect it up top. You can start playing with that. Just like the a constant teep to the gut it’ll start sapping their air. I agree that over relying on constant levels changes with the jab in a thai context requires more caution though.

On a personal note I haven’t had much issue incorporating my jab into my muay thai sparring over the years and I get to spar with competitive amateurs and pros in the local scene here. Take that for what you will though, everyone’s different, and maybe our athletes aren’t the best but I personally think we have solid guys at our gym guys who also regularly train with Joe Valtellini and his guys.

You are not been fair here man. I never said it should never be used. I responded to the : Jab as frequently as you teep.

I'm not against the use of the jab... I am against the use of the jab the way and the frequency they use it in Boxing. I believe the teep is a better weapon and covers most of the uses. Of course there are situation that are more suited for the jab, but it shouldn't be a "main" weapon. That's my opinion on how MT should be taught, specially to beginners. From there, and with enough experience, some individuals can make everything work. But a puncher based Nak Muay is an exception, not the rule.

I don’t necessarily disagree with that in getting a beginner comfortable with the crazy amount of options muay thai offers and the initial wtf confusion and shock that happens first time people start sparring. I think it’s pretty important to start advancing that mindset relatively quickly though, because being able to use your lead hand effectively shouldn’t be deemed a master level concept, if you’re not working on it from the get go just like the teep, what good is it going to be in upping your game?


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And a final aside, two vids that I think explain really well how a jab should be thought of, it’s from a pure boxing perspective but I think it applies just as much to muay thai and kickboxing.



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[aerius]

In pure Thai rules you’re right the jab won’t score much, but that IMO isn’t the purpose of the jab. One part is the setup it creates but that’s a very basic perspective I think. I see it as this there are two types of threats in a fight (striking, I won’t speak to grappling), an actual threat and a virtual threat. Just like establishing a teep that makes your opponent respect it you gain a measure of control that previously wasn’t there before your opponent deemed your teep a threat. At that point just raising your knee up (a virtual threat) elicits a reaction from your opponent, a reaction you now have a measure of predictability over..you can start controlling the initiative. A jab that your opponent is forced to respect is going to establish the same sort of initiative and control, and I really believe it doesn’t just apply to boxing

But what’s the point when the teep is your leg, and the leg is stronger, coming from a weird angle and accomplishes a similar thing? Well for one..that’s the beauty of muay thai in my mind, the fact that eight weapons have to be dealt with and adding that much more to your arsenal can only be an advantage that leads to less predictability on your part.

When you suddenly have two effective tools working in tandem you are that much more of a threat both virtual and actual. The other part of the jab is it can control, just like the teep.. jabbing at the chest, neck, shoulders allows you to freeze or push back your opponent, skirting back and forth between far, medium, and close range the jab can become a lever to turn your opponent by leaving it at your opponent’s head while you circle, pivot, move away, or disguise a knee, a clinch entry, a follow up punch or kick, etc.

It’s also faster, delivered with less effort and lets you keep your feet underneath your hips..the implications of that are dynamic in a fight. Not to mention it can also establish your teep that might be getting caught by an opponent who’s good at reading them.

And putting all the above into action is none other than Namsaknoi. The jab & teep work off each other and once he's established both he starts lifting his lead leg & using other feints to help setup the rest of his strikes.

 

[ARIZE]

In pure Thai rules you’re right the jab won’t score much, but that IMO isn’t the purpose of the jab. One part is the setup it creates but that’s a very basic perspective I think. I see it as this there are two types of threats in a fight (striking, I won’t speak to grappling), an actual threat and a virtual threat. Just like establishing a teep that makes your opponent respect it you gain a measure of control that previously wasn’t there before your opponent deemed your teep a threat. At that point just raising your knee up (a virtual threat) elicits a reaction from your opponent, a reaction you now have a measure of predictability over..you can start controlling the initiative. A jab that your opponent is forced to respect is going to establish the same sort of initiative and control, and I really believe it doesn’t just apply to boxing

I agree.

But what’s the point when the teep is your leg, and the leg is stronger, coming from a weird angle and accomplishes a similar thing? Well for one..that’s the beauty of muay thai in my mind, the fact that eight weapons have to be dealt with and adding that much more to your arsenal can only be an advantage that leads to less predictability on your part.

I agree.

When you suddenly have two effective tools working in tandem you are that much more of a threat both virtual and actual. The other part of the jab is it can control, just like the teep.. jabbing at the chest, neck, shoulders allows you to freeze or push back your opponent, skirting back and forth between far, medium, and close range the jab can become a lever to turn your opponent by leaving it at your opponent’s head while you circle, pivot, move away, or disguise a knee, a clinch entry, a follow up punch or kick, etc.

I don't agree. Or to be more precise, I don't agree on the utility vs risk of a body jab in MT. There is a reason you see so few of them in MT matches. Even in the match that @aerius posted, I only counted 2, one at 4:55 and one at 5:14. And that last one he had switched stances, so it's basically a rear straight, but most important, he pays for it. Even if I missed a couple ones, you can't say it's a main weapon, even for heavy jabbers.

It’s also faster, delivered with less effort and lets you keep your feet underneath your hips..the implications of that are dynamic in a fight. Not to mention it can also establish your teep that might be getting caught by an opponent who’s good at reading them.

I agree.

Jabbing effectively to the stomach is a matter of stepping confidently forward with the lead leg, and feinting your opponent’s expectation of where your hand is going. You look your guy in the eye and jab at their gut and they’ll expect it up top. You can start playing with that. Just like the a constant teep to the gut it’ll start sapping their air. I agree that over relying on constant levels changes with the jab in a thai context requires more caution though.

On a personal note I haven’t had much issue incorporating my jab into my muay thai sparring over the years and I get to spar with competitive amateurs and pros in the local scene here. Take that for what you will though, everyone’s different, and maybe our athletes aren’t the best but I personally think we have solid guys at our gym guys who also regularly train with Joe Valtellini and his guys.

I can't comment on personal experiences, and if it's work for you, I'm genuinely glad about it. But as I said before, from MY experience, and from what I've seen in others pro matches, the body jab is not an regular/efficient strike.

And a final aside, two vids that I think explain really well how a jab should be thought of, it’s from a pure boxing perspective but I think it applies just as much to muay thai and kickboxing.

I don't agree with the: "It applies just as much to MT"


And I will conclude with that: I'm not against the jab. I'm against the use of the jab the way boxers use it and the teaching to beginners that way. Of course the jab is a basic strike you need to learn, but not the way boxers and KBoxers used it.

And I'm against the use and the teaching of the body jab. Can someone pull it off? Probably. But that doesn't mean you should make it a rule instead of an exception.