Ebi ot rules suggestions...

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by BJJ_Rage, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    Joe Soto has made it pretty clear how to game the rules. Despite his great peeformqnce, it was clear that his main objective was to take the game to ot and then stall the most to win on time. I think by now it will be dumb to request spider web, most people will chose back control because of you can control the person for longer, so if you don't get the tap, at least you are racking some time in your favor.

    So, the flaw on the rule set is evident, and the tournament and the whole ot rules are designed to avoid stalling and make the show entertaining, and somehow it still is, but this stalling from seatbelt control will get worse and worse. So, I think one change on the rules it could be implemented is that spider web must be chosen at least once...

    Any suggestions to avoid sotoing the rules ( this is not a knock on Soto, I really like him, he just exposed a flaw in the rules)
     
  2. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Do they get pay if they go over time?
     
  3. chunglii

    chunglii No Me Duele Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I think since EBI 1 it was obvious how to "play the game" with the OT rules.

    I say incentivize submission wins in OT, but wins in regulation time pay more than a sub win in OT. The problem with this is that EBI probably doesn't have enough money to do this yet.

    Or, unlimited OT rounds until somebody gets a sub. But idk how to keep the format EBI has now, which I think is highly entertaining and the most exciting of all the BJJ comps out there, and have time limits for the sake of making it a spectator sport.
     
  4. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    Nop, but I don't think the biggest problem is taking the fight to ot, is the it tactics what I'm worry about. Not being able to sub someone in 10 minutes is totally understandable, specially in no gi, I loved the ot rules because it actually most or the times provided the chance for a submission, but now it seems like people with the seatbelt on are who could be looking to stall and not the person defending the "choke"... That would be a big facepalm to eddies OT rules...
     
  5. cjd

    cjd Blue Belt

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    Maybe take money out of the purse if you win by "riding time"? Ie, -1000, someone with two subs (+5000 each), and OT sub win (+0), and a riding time win (-1000), who wins the tournament would get 9000, instead of 10,000? Maybe stupid.

    One thing I did notice was that the escapes were frequently into bad positions. Another idea: If the "escape" happens in under two minutes (or 90 seconds or whatever), have them keep going until the end of that two minutes. Note the time of the escape (for the purposes of riding time). If there's no escape or sub within the time period, stop them, so there's a cap on the amount of riding time you can build up.
     
  6. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    you could stall on the seat belt but it is who ever escape the fastest isn't?
     
  7. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

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    The OT rule that bugs me the most (and seemingly many of the competitors) is that the round is over if the guy "escapes" to full mount. Seems pretty ridiculous that The Truck is an acceptable position, but not full mount. In fact, I might suggest making full mount one of the position choices, and/or rotating the positions like you suggest (rd 1 back mount, rd 2 full mount, rd 3 spiderweb). The rules should be that you haven't escaped until you've made it back to a neutral position or guard.
     
  8. dumbMandarin

    dumbMandarin White Belt

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    I think the fact that they don't get paid for OT is a partial solution.

    The idea of their purse being overall deducted is interesting, but that wouldn't affect someone that went OT every round.

    I think if they incentivize OT submission, we might get competitors more likely to stall in regulation and wait for OT.

    Joe seemed to show how to game the system, but i think most rules will have leaks and competitors will figure out how to exploit them. The fact that they don't get paid for going into OT, directly addresses this exploit.

    There might be a better system of rules that can be implemented, but maybe the stalling and non submission in OT should be viewed as the competitors ability, and less on the rules. It's possible that the competitors need to sharpen their finishing ability from the back (and escape ability).

    When Kron and Marcelo get your back, their finishing ability is at a very high rate. Maybe competitors just need to get to that level.
     
  9. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    thats what I meant by facepalm, normally the guy whos stalling is the one defending, but under the current rules, as crazy as it sounds, the guy stalling is the guy with the seatbelt ON (attacking) every second that passes by is a second the guy defending is losing, basically you dont need to finish anyone int he over time, you need not to get finish and accumulate as much time in "control" as you can. Thats why going spiderweb makes no sense, unless you are very very confident in you abilities to finish from that position (which it is hard enough no gi already).
     
  10. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    I think a solution could be add more deadzones, for example, after the 3 tries, no one gets a sub, a new dead zone is introduce, lets say truck, if again nothing happens, outside hh, and if after that there still no sub, then inside hh, then if theres still not a finish, fuck it mma match lol...
     
  11. dumbMandarin

    dumbMandarin White Belt

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    mma match, lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  12. dumbMandarin

    dumbMandarin White Belt

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    Adding more dead zones or doing unlimited OT's, could possibly affect the overall time of the event. This might affect the entertainment of EBI in a negative way.
     
  13. Ton

    Ton The master of Potato Plata

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    I think the main issue is that the guy knows that if he doesn't get a sub in 10 mins he loses the money for that round. And then going into the OT it pretty much becomes a points game again, just with time. I think it's a good idea to add partial money for OT subs AND do unlimited OT rounds. This way the guys know, they gotta get the sub, and if they stall they only get more tired and won't compete as well in later rounds.
     
  14. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Maybe the first OT is spiderweb, the second OT is mount (subs unlikely, but I think it's an important grappling position that is neglected in this format), and third OT is back mount.
     
  15. chunglii

    chunglii No Me Duele Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I definitely agree that they need to change the definition of an escape in OT if they start in backmount. I think in every EBI so far when a competitor had backmount in OT but it transitioned to mount and time was called, they all looked at the ref like "Wait, what?"
     
  16. dumbMandarin

    dumbMandarin White Belt

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    Adding partial money for OT subs
    - This might give more incentive to not finish in regulation. If competitors are willing to give up money to get to OT, they might be willing to give up lesser money (OT submission money) for accumulating time and increasing the chance for a possible victory.

    Unlimited OT rounds
    - This could possibly affect the overall time of the event, and this could make it less spectator friendly. This could possibly lead to poorer sales and the demise of EBI.

    Soto vs Miyao / Soto vs Martinez all OT rounds were escaped, and a couple of those escapes happened relatively quickly. The idea that someone can control you from the back and there is no possible way to escape fast, doesn't seem to anecdotally hold true. In ADCC, IBJJF, and EBI people have shown the ability to escape from back control against high level competitors. This leads to a possible solution that maybe the competitor should take responsibility and develop a quicker and more effective escape from the back.
     
  17. dumbMandarin

    dumbMandarin White Belt

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    I think the tournament is young and new.

    I think the competitors are new to this format.

    If everyone pulls a "Soto" in future events, (which would require people to not care for the money and/or not develop a game to finish in regulation) then we can think about changes that could be made.

    There may end up being glaring holes in the EBI rules/format, but i think its a little early to call in the dogs and demand changes to the rules.
     
  18. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    why would it? OT are always exiting, because is so close from the finish, its like a tiedbreak in tennis... If it affects how long the show turns out to be, then cut the kids matches.
     
  19. Ton

    Ton The master of Potato Plata

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    I agree with your points and it may be just a case of everyone seeing the problem and not seeing a clear solution . Having said that, these are by far the best sub only rules out there atm.
     
  20. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    im not worry about regulation time, im worrry about sotoing in the OT. I mean, its ridiculous to see a person with a full seatbelt on stalling for his life, that should not be happening. The whole concept of making the defender escape is so theres no stalling in the ot and the attacker could eventually captilize on the person trying to escape, what eddie probably didnt think was that the person attacking, instead of looking for ways to finish, will try to stay as much time possible on his opponents back even if that means no attacking at all..
     

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