Bagwork Dude owns the speed bag

Looks like a good coach for becoming speedbag champion of the world.
 
The speed bag is one of those tools I still I haven't figured if it's useful or not. So many high level boxers use it, but that doesn't always mean it's useful.
Not that I really searched but I never seen videos of Russian/eastern bloc fighters using it.
 
Nobody will ever convince me that using a speedbag is that useful for becoming a better fighter/boxer
 
pugilistico said:
The speed bag is one of those tools I still I haven't figured if it's useful or not. So many high level boxers use it, but that doesn't always mean it's useful.
Not that I really searched but I never seen videos of Russian/eastern bloc fighters using it.
Click to expand...
Its good for endurance.
Keeping your arms up even when you're too tired to do so.
It just becomes muscle memory sir.
 
StonedLemur said:
Its good for endurance.
Keeping your arms up even when you're too tired to do so.
It just becomes muscle memory sir.
Click to expand...
I don't buy that. Fighters train on the bag and shadow box for many many rounds. Usually with gloves that are heavier than the ones they fight in.
That alone would help you keep your arms up.
I never had problems keeping my arms up and I barely ever used the speed bag. That's because I was on the heavy bag alone for 12 rounds.

If anything the speed bag would work on rhythm and coordination, which are all debatable when you could use the double end bag and the tennis ball drill.

That being said, I was wrong about Eastern European/Russian fighters not using it. I saw a video of Bivol on the speed bag in preparation for Beterbiev.
 
pugilistico said:
I don't buy that. Fighters train on the bag and shadow box for many many rounds. Usually with gloves that are heavier than the ones they fight in.
That alone would help you keep your arms up.
I never had problems keeping my arms up and I barely ever used the speed bag. That's because I was on the heavy bag alone for 12 rounds.

If anything the speed bag would work on rhythm and coordination, which are all debatable when you could use the double end bag and the tennis ball drill.

That being said, I was wrong about Eastern European/Russian fighters not using it. I saw a video of Bivol on the speed bag in preparation for Beterbiev.
Click to expand...
Im just telling you what I was told sir.
 
pugilistico said:
I don't buy that. Fighters train on the bag and shadow box for many many rounds. Usually with gloves that are heavier than the ones they fight in.
That alone would help you keep your arms up.
I never had problems keeping my arms up and I barely ever used the speed bag. That's because I was on the heavy bag alone for 12 rounds.

If anything the speed bag would work on rhythm and coordination, which are all debatable when you could use the double end bag and the tennis ball drill.

That being said, I was wrong about Eastern European/Russian fighters not using it. I saw a video of Bivol on the speed bag in preparation for Beterbiev.
Click to expand...
Flawed logic here.

Just because you didn't need to use a tool doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

Not everything is going to be an EXACT translation.

Speed bag definitely will improve hand eye coordination, muscle endurance specifically in a posture which will help to have strength and continued output in a high guard position and it should have aeorbic and anaerobic benefit, meaning that it could aid a fighter being able to keep their hands up and moving even in a fatigued state with depleted energy/oxygen.

Will the speed bag by itself make you an effective boxer? No.

Will it improve functional strength and speed in deltoid, bicep, triceps and forearm muscles? Yup.

From there... what do you do with it?
Ideally once the basics are mastered, then footwork should be incorporated, and without question any time a fighter can improve their coordination to have their hands and feet moving independently to change angles while staying focused and defensively (and offensively) responsible and engaged will have benefit.

I would look at it as a tool with nearly infinite possibility to increase level of difficulty in terms of the coordination you could function with.
If you start out and learn to master several movements and rhythms like he shows, first flat footed, then maybe with a bounce, a skip, alternating lead legs, figure 8 or V step patterns, then adding steps to mimick exiting and entering from different angles, then do that starting and exiting with each hand.

Eventually leading to patterns like this (which Cruz based off boxers like Willie Pep) while keeping the hands going.




If you could get hands and feet to both freely vary a set of let's say 8 of so patterns each... and then get that to function on "autopilot" - I think that would be pretty much guaranteed to make you a better boxer. And that could be as simple as a few minutes a day thru your boxing career, just always adding a little bit of challenge and complexity.
____________________


It reminds me of when I hear a musician say "you shouldn't play scales, it will ruin your creativity"

But really all you are doing is reinforcing important foundations and then you can basically have unlimited range of creativity WITH a more intelligent and purposed pathway.

Instead of "scales are boring so I don't do them"

Scales are boring, so I play them backwards, in groups of 3, while my left hand plays an arpeggio , with ever increasing speed and agility, starting on different modes and in complex sequences and patterns.
 
GolovKing said:
Nobody will ever convince me that using a speedbag is that useful for becoming a better fighter/boxer
Click to expand...
When I was on holiday at the beginning of the year there was a speedbag in a garage and nothing else so I worked on it as in our home gym we never trained with it. My coaches always told me its useless.
I got better over the weeks but it felt like there is minimal if at all transfer to boxing. Sure it helps with hand eye coordination but I couldnt find one exercise were tennis ball punching or double end or shadow boxing wouldnt have done the same but much much better in its transfer into boxing.

No one here uses it and I kinda get why.
jeff7b9 said:
Will it improve functional strength and speed in deltoid, bicep, triceps and forearm muscles? Yup.

From there... what do you do with it?
Ideally once the basics are mastered, then footwork should be incorporated, and without question any time a fighter can improve their coordination to have their hands and feet moving independently to change angles while staying focused and defensively (and offensively) responsible and engaged will have benefit.
Click to expand...

I dont buy that : Yes it helps but there are much better ways to learn especially as your standard speed bag punch is not how you would punch in a fight. Show me one exercise at the speed bag I cant do better with other equipment . If its about rythm and speed I d go for double end. Precision , execution and distance > hanging punching ball / shadow boxing, hand to eye > tennisball with a rubber band. And foot work is much better incorporated with a training instrument you can actually move around with instead of a static speed bag.

I will still be open for someone showing me that benefit , just am very sceptical.

And using Cruz as an example if its about boxing is not helpful as he is an abysmal boxer with zero power transfer. Regarding Willie Pep what would be the benefit t with a speed bag? emulating his footwork / punch strategy is imo much more effective via shadow boxing, footwork drills and for building in punching I would go for a punching ball to get the distance right (which is difficult) .
 
listrahtes said:
When I was on holiday at the beginning of the year there was a speedbag in a garage and nothing else so I worked on it as in our home gym we never trained with it. My coaches always told me its useless.
I got better over the weeks but it felt like there is minimal if at all transfer to boxing. Sure it helps with hand eye coordination but I couldnt find one exercise were tennis ball punching or double end or shadow boxing wouldnt have done the same but much much better in its transfer into boxing.

No one here uses it and I kinda get why.


I dont buy that : Yes it helps but there are much better ways to learn especially as your standard speed bag punch is not how you would punch in a fight. Show me one exercise at the speed bag I cant do better with other equipment . If its about rythm and speed I d go for double end. Precision , execution and distance > hanging punching ball / shadow boxing, hand to eye > tennisball with a rubber band. And foot work is much better incorporated with a training instrument you can actually move around with instead of a static speed bag.

I will still be open for someone showing me that benefit , just am very sceptical.

And using Cruz as an example if its about boxing is not helpful as he is an abysmal boxer with zero power transfer. Regarding Willie Pep what would be the benefit t with a speed bag? emulating his footwork / punch strategy is imo much more effective via shadow boxing, footwork drills and for building in punching I would go for a punching ball to get the distance right (which is difficult) .
Click to expand...

If your response to being presented with the concept of thinking out of the box to see the value in something is

"Nont uh, I don't like to do it that way"

Then you are probably correct that you would fail to achieve value with that device/endeavor.
 
jeff7b9 said:
If your response to being presented with the concept of thinking out of the box to see the value in something is

"Nont uh, I don't like to do it that way"

Then you are probably correct that you would fail to achieve value with that device/endeavor.
Click to expand...

Why dont you tell me a specific training goal / exercise drill that is best achieved with a speed ball? Not this "outside the box" esoteric bullshido meandering.

And you didnt get my post at all, I was doing 3 weeks of it looking for a transfer into boxing. Certainly not to proove it wrong. My time is too valuable for that.

Obvious you seem to get a lot out of speed ball so describe us some drills with it that are high quality and best done that way to achieve the goal.

I am still open to incorporating that into training if it makes sense and is better than the alternative.
 
Last edited:
jeff7b9 said:
Flawed logic here.

Just because you didn't need to use a tool doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

Not everything is going to be an EXACT translation.

Speed bag definitely will improve hand eye coordination, muscle endurance specifically in a posture which will help to have strength and continued output in a high guard position and it should have aeorbic and anaerobic benefit, meaning that it could aid a fighter being able to keep their hands up and moving even in a fatigued state with depleted energy/oxygen.

Will the speed bag by itself make you an effective boxer? No.

Will it improve functional strength and speed in deltoid, bicep, triceps and forearm muscles? Yup.

From there... what do you do with it?
Ideally once the basics are mastered, then footwork should be incorporated, and without question any time a fighter can improve their coordination to have their hands and feet moving independently to change angles while staying focused and defensively (and offensively) responsible and engaged will have benefit.

I would look at it as a tool with nearly infinite possibility to increase level of difficulty in terms of the coordination you could function with.
If you start out and learn to master several movements and rhythms like he shows, first flat footed, then maybe with a bounce, a skip, alternating lead legs, figure 8 or V step patterns, then adding steps to mimick exiting and entering from different angles, then do that starting and exiting with each hand.

Eventually leading to patterns like this (which Cruz based off boxers like Willie Pep) while keeping the hands going.




If you could get hands and feet to both freely vary a set of let's say 8 of so patterns each... and then get that to function on "autopilot" - I think that would be pretty much guaranteed to make you a better boxer. And that could be as simple as a few minutes a day thru your boxing career, just always adding a little bit of challenge and complexity.
____________________


It reminds me of when I hear a musician say "you shouldn't play scales, it will ruin your creativity"

But really all you are doing is reinforcing important foundations and then you can basically have unlimited range of creativity WITH a more intelligent and purposed pathway.

Instead of "scales are boring so I don't do them"

Scales are boring, so I play them backwards, in groups of 3, while my left hand plays an arpeggio , with ever increasing speed and agility, starting on different modes and in complex sequences and patterns.
Click to expand...

I never said the speed bag is useless. I just question to what degree it is useful. I don't think it's essential.

The problem with the speed bag is that it's not specific enough. I'm sure it could be a fun interesting way to work on coordination or even "endurance" but the carry over it'll have to your actual fighting skill won't be as direct as other tools that have you using movements you would actually use in a fight. The way you punch the speed bag isn't the way you actually throw a punch. You could work all the things you mention by using tools that have more direct transfer to your boxing skills.

Another problem with the speed bag is that it's seen as a boxing specific tool but I would wager that the speed bag is as useful for boxing as other non-specific exercises that work coordination, endurance, timing, etc. such as playing paddle ball, ping pong, salsa dancing, juggling, or even playing the drums.

I'm not saying fighters should only ever do exercises that directly transfer to their skills; learning "extracurricular" skills can have indirect transfer in a fun and creative way. I personally find dancing to be a really good activity for fighters to do. The speed bag could be one of these things but I doubt it's essential.

I very much doubt it does a lot for endurance when you consider how much boxers train their sport specific movements. After hours every day on the mitts, heavy bag, shadow boxing and sparring, I doubt a few rounds on the speed bag is what gives them the edge in endurance. The speed bag is something that's already in the gym, it might help, so why not play with it if you have a few minutes to spare as you cool down from your work out?

On another note, I tried to look at speed bag videos of various top boxers of different countries to see if the speed bag is used globally, and I didn't find any of Japanese fighters like Naoya or Nakatani in my quick search. I found that interesting. Do they not use it or is there simply no footage of them using it? Also found no footage of GGG using the speed bag. And of course the speed bag very rarely ever seen in Thai gyms if at all. But various Cubans, Mexicans, Brits, Russians, Uzbeks, and of course Americans use it.
 
pugilistico said:
The problem with the speed bag is that it's not specific enough.
Click to expand...
thx that puts my whole criticism in one sentence. It felt exactly like learning a new skill that was kinda fun but has no specific use in boxing.

Imo thats why @jeff7b9 stays that vague about its use. He himself has no idea about specific goals that are best done with a speed ball.
 
speed and timing
some endurance
I can see why many drop it once they get to a certain point of competencey in boxing
the advanced way I was shown was to mix in actual punches like a straight right or hook and pilots around the stand

I was told it was to develop that ability to just instictivley flash out a punch as soon as something opens up

but I always felt a lot more benefit from double end bag
 
pugilistico said:
The speed bag is one of those tools I still I haven't figured if it's useful or not. So many high level boxers use it, but that doesn't always mean it's useful.
Not that I really searched but I never seen videos of Russian/eastern bloc fighters using it.
Click to expand...
I used it for more a shoulder workout after lifting but you got to hit it high so you get the burn I generally just pummel it and don’t let it hit the board .

Generally it’s more eye coordination then speed unless you hit a really small bag which is more difficult. One could use it as a cool down or warm up before training as well .
 
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