Does it matter which part of the knee you strike with?

[AshiharaFan]

Lol at people who dont knee with their knees.

Brb kneeing with my quads

Yeah, this is kinda what I was thinking, then I thought to myself "Meh, just let it go."

The knee in general is such a really small weapon to strike with and, well, you already know.

 

[Harukaze]

Right, because the knee is solely the patella, the quadiceps muscle belly extends over the femoral condyles, and the femoral condyles are a tiny part of the body. Please study your human anatomy before making opinionated assumptions.
http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/knee-pain/picture-of-the-knee

Argue and make fun of me all you want, I've already provided all the anatomical and biomechanical knowledge available (with citations and examples versus anecdotal arguments and nonfactual assumptions) and have nothing more to say unless there are any further specific questions or requests for clarification. I'm going to keep kneeing the way I'm kneeing for decades to come, the same way I've kneed in Thailand and the same way I've kneed in academic and clinical studies.

 

[f847]

Right, because the knee is solely the patella, the quadiceps muscle belly extends over the femoral condyles, and the femoral condyles are a tiny part of the body. Please study your human anatomy before making opinionated assumptions.
http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/knee-pain/picture-of-the-knee

Argue and make fun of me all you want, I've already provided all the anatomical and biomechanical knowledge available (with citations and examples versus anecdotal arguments and nonfactual assumptions) and have nothing more to say unless there are any further specific questions or requests for clarification. I'm going to keep kneeing the way I'm kneeing for decades to come, the same way I've kneed in Thailand and the same way I've kneed in academic and clinical studies.

I don't have much to say because I don't know much about this, hence that's why I asked. But I really appreciate your replies and explanations, I have read them all and learn much.

Thanks.

 

[Chungungo]

Definitely NOT the patella! Anyone that tells you to land with the patella is doing you a huge disservice! The patella is meant to be a bony pulley for the quadriceps tendon; it is NOT meant to take any impact or shock loading whatsoever; that's why patellar fractures occur so easily when a person lands on it during a fall (and the patella tends to shatter on impact). The patella is a little chip of a bone that is "floating" in the quadriceps tendon; it has neither the density nor stability to serve as an impact point. It's probably the WORST place (for you) with which to land a knee strike.

The ideal point of contact for a knee strike is land with the distal base of the femur: it's large and dense and is meant to take longitudinal loads. Because this is the main landing point, this is why the angle of your knee strikes make a huge difference. If the strike is too vertical and not horizontal enough, you land on the shaft of the femur instead, resulting in less impact (due to a less dense part of the femur wrapped in meaty quadriceps) and less leverage in the strike (due to the angle of the strike being more akin to a slap and less of a stab).

So we bend it very well at the moment of striking ??
I had a very legit Muay Thai coach that used to teach a strike with the knee a little bit open, never liked because felt my patella kind of exposed...

 

[Harukaze]

I don't have much to say because I don't know much about this, hence that's why I asked. But I really appreciate your replies and explanations, I have read them all and learn much.

Thanks.

Glad to be of service!

So we bend it very well at the moment of striking ??
I had a very legit Muay Thai coach that used to teach a strike with the knee a little bit open, never liked because felt my patella kind of exposed...

In theory, yes. Although in the real world, "ideal" is rarely consistent, and techniques may change based on comfort and dare I say "laziness" as one figures out the "best" way to do a technique with the minimal amount of effort required.

 

[Paradigm]

hahaha...this thread reminded me of the 48 or so hours i spent on here after Anderson/Chael II discussing legal/illegal knees with morons in the heavies.

i bruise pretty easily (from bagwork even) and i dont ever recall my patella bruising up from training...not sure that could even happen. i have bruised at the end of the femur...will try to verify this if i go to the gym tomorrow by doing a lot of bagwork with knees lol.

nvm...while typing this post, i decided to check my photobucket to see if i had any photos related to this. found one from when i went to Thailand last year. you can see the bruising on my kneecaps but my legs are straightened in the pic. btw...those bruises are not from sparring but from the rock hard bags i was kicking haha:

if i put my finger where the bruises were and bend my knee back like i'd throw a knee, they're pretty much at the end of the femur and not on my patella. the bruises are more towards the patella on my left knee but thats probably because i dont have the same drive when i throw the switch knee as i do with my right (i'm orthodox). also looks like im kicking from too close on my rear roundhouse.

if i recall correctly, Harukaze is/was a med student and knows his shit in general about anatomy and striking sports.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I forfeited any further participation in this thread for a few reasons. I am posting this final reply in this thread to say four things.

1). Regardless of medical terminology the fact remains that the knee is a very small part of the human body to use as a weapon as compared to another part such as the shin. In the heat of an intense sparring match (and most certainly in a real fight on the pavement arena) there is absolutely no way a person can meticulously impact with OR avoid impacting with any certain part of the knee. I am quite inclined to say that anyone who claims to be able to routinely do so (in live combat NOT during bag work or doing drills) is lying through their teeth. YES, there IS an ideal impact spot and ideal delivery angle of a knee attack (though this thread proves that this ideal is subject to multiple understandings). And because there is an ideal impact area of the knee to attack with, one should most certainly try to hit with that part of their knees when doing drills and bag work.

2). Given the small size of the weapon under discussion as well as the primal nature of combat I am boldly stating that it is a mistake for someone to over intellectualize and over analyze the science of striking with the knee and making it into a subject of "rocket science". I think to become fixated on the idea of trying to strike with or avoid striking with a particular part of the very small weapon called the knee IN THE HEAT OF COMBAT is as asinine as trying to connect with the first two knuckles of the fist while wearing 10 oz. boxing gloves in a sparring match. If the knee was as a vast an area of the human body as the shin then I would see the sense of consciously sectioning the knee for target practice in a fight.

3). Without dismissing or disregarding Harukaze's or any other person's medical knowledge I still say that empirical experience is the best indicator of sound or unsound habits when it comes to knees as weapons. After YEARS of bag work with knees and a shitload of sparring using knees and defending against knees I have yet to run into any of the misfortunes that have been claimed in this thread. I have yet to personally witness any of them with other people. I am repeating that it's not rocket science. I'll take personal experiences over theories any day. That's just me though and of course others are free to do whatever they feel is best for them.

4). The final and most important thing I have to say is directed at Harukaze:

Harukaze, you said in an earlier post that you were being made fun of but you never said who you were referring to. If you were directing that at me I only want to say that it was not my intention to make fun of you and I am apologizing to you if any of my posts came across as being overly critical or attacking the credibility of what you had to say here. I have my views on the matter and that is all I have. I do hope you accept my apology.

Now, if it's all the same to the rest of you guys I am going to gracefully exit this thread with no notions of winning or losing any arguments or debates. Just differences in views, understandings and experiences, that's all.

 

[TheyAllFloat]

^^ what he said. And to add- instead of worrying about which part of the knee you are striking with, worry about learning to drive your hips through and developing proper technique and power- this will be more important when considering injuries and winning fights than what part of the bloody knee your connecting with. Think there is a bit of overthinking going on here...

 

[a guy]

I forfeited any further participation in this thread for a few reasons. I am posting this final reply in this thread to say four things.

1). Regardless of medical terminology the fact remains that the knee is a very small part of the human body to use as a weapon as compared to another part such as the shin. In the heat of an intense sparring match (and most certainly in a real fight on the pavement arena) there is absolutely no way a person can meticulously impact with OR avoid impacting with any certain part of the knee. I am quite inclined to say that anyone who claims to be able to routinely do so (in live combat NOT during bag work or doing drills) is lying through their teeth. YES, there IS an ideal impact spot and ideal delivery angle of a knee attack (though this thread proves that this ideal is subject to multiple understandings). And because there is an ideal impact area of the knee to attack with, one should most certainly try to hit with that part of their knees when doing drills and bag work.

Nobody is saying this but you.

2). Given the small size of the weapon under discussion as well as the primal nature of combat I am boldly stating that it is a mistake for someone to over intellectualize and over analyze the science of striking with the knee and making it into a subject of "rocket science". I think to become fixated on the idea of trying to strike with or avoid striking with a particular part of the very small weapon called the knee IN THE HEAT OF COMBAT is as asinine as trying to connect with the first two knuckles of the fist while wearing 10 oz. boxing gloves in a sparring match. If the knee was as a vast an area of the human body as the shin then I would see the sense of consciously sectioning the knee for target practice in a fight.

So in a thread specifically talking about what part of the knee to strike with, it's a mistake to explain which part of the knee to strike with--but only if you sound too smart doing it. Come on man, nobody said that when you're sparring you should be constantly thinking about what part of the knee is landing. It doesn't hurt to know why good technique is good technique however, and it's important to practice landing correctly just like it IS important to practice landing with the right knuckles in drilling.

3). Without dismissing or disregarding Harukaze's or any other person's medical knowledge I still say that empirical experience is the best indicator of sound or unsound habits when it comes to knees as weapons. After YEARS of bag work with knees and a shitload of sparring using knees and defending against knees I have yet to run into any of the misfortunes that have been claimed in this thread. I have yet to personally witness any of them with other people. I am repeating that it's not rocket science. I'll take personal experiences over theories any day. That's just me though and of course others are free to do whatever they feel is best for them.

You ignore the fact that Haru is also offering personal experience, AND information on clinical studies in addition to that.

^^ what he said. And to add- instead of worrying about which part of the knee you are striking with, worry about learning to drive your hips through and developing proper technique and power- this will be more important when considering injuries and winning fights than what part of the bloody knee your connecting with. Think there is a bit of overthinking going on here...

Did both of you intentionally avoid reading the parts where Haru talked about proper knee technique and said the exact same thing?

 

[TheyAllFloat]

Did both of you intentionally avoid reading the parts where Haru talked about proper knee technique and said the exact same thing?

yeah I didnt read that bit.

 

[aries]

In retrospect, I would agree that some aspect of the patella is most likely going to be part of the striking surface because nothing in this world is absolutely perfect, but it should NOT be the main striking surface.

Lastly, the patella's primary role is to provide leverage for knee extension. Its role in protecting the knee joint is tertiary and, to be completely honest, rather last ditch as evident in its anatomy (why is it a stupid little potato chip of a bone suspended in a tendon instead of an extended bony sheath from the tibia, like the upper lip of a shinguard?).

Totally agree with this. The condyles specifically the medial condyle are large densest parts of the femur. They are effectively the biggest 'knuckles' on your body.

To get which part of the knee to land with think of throwing a round knee and you'll naturally land with the medial condyle as it's practically impossible to get any decent impact if you were to use the patella. You'll also see why guys like Dieselnoi often come in with a horizontal vector on their knees to land on that medial condyle.