Opinion Does Christianity really teach that some people will spend eternity in hell?

[hillelslovak87]

Even TRT Marduk stands no chance against Jesus Christ

Rev 20

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him......

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Dragons, really?

 

[franklinstower]

What are you talking about? I'm still waiting for you to actually provide logic or evidence for your claims....

I would like you to clarify your position again for me. Forgive me these are new thoughts and I am slow on the uptake.

Are you saying that just in the act of creating someone that this determines everything about them, every choice they will ever make, down to how well they brush their teeth, all of that determined only by the act of creation?

 

[hillelslovak87]

I would like you to clarify your position again for me. Forgive me these are new thoughts and I am slow on the uptake.

Are you saying that just in the act of creating someone that this determines everything about them, every choice they will ever make, down to how well they brush their teeth, all of that determined only by the act of creation?

According to the Bible, and the history of christian scholarship, God is

Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent.

Since he is omniscient, he knows all. He knows everything that ever happened, and everything that ever will happen, even after he raptures people and this dimension is seemingly done away with. He is also omnipotent, meaning he can change anything he wants.

Now, if God knows everything that will happen, perfectly and completely, he cannot change anything, or he will have had an incorrect knowledge of the future.

On free will. If he has set everything down, every action, variable, everything, then whatever choices you think you make, they were already slated to happen, meaning your choice is an illusion. For there to be free will, there needs to be indeterminacy. If God already has your choice set, there is no way for you to actually take the other choice. It's like saying a computer has free will because you pushed the e key, yet the computer chose not to push the r key.

 

[franklinstower]

According to the Bible, and the history of christian scholarship, God is

Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent.

Since he is omniscient, he knows all. He knows everything that ever happened, and everything that ever will happen, even after he raptures people and this dimension is seemingly done away with. He is also omnipotent, meaning he can change anything he wants.

Now, if God knows everything that will happen, perfectly and completely, he cannot change anything, or he will have had an incorrect knowledge of the future.

On free will. If he has set everything down, every action, variable, everything, then whatever choices you think you make, they were already slated to happen, meaning your choice is an illusion. For there to be free will, there needs to be indeterminacy. If God already has your choice set, there is no way for you to actually take the other choice. It's like saying a computer has free will because you pushed the e key, yet the computer chose not to push the r key.

OK I think I finally understand the perspective. Holy shit that took me a while.....

You said--

Now, if God knows everything that will happen, perfectly and completely, he cannot change anything, or he will have had an incorrect knowledge of the future.

This isn't very important but he could change things all the time but his changing things would be a part of his knowing.

To your last point about the act of creation being determined in the very act I cant see that this is a bulletproof argument. I think it assumes a lot about God from a limited amount of information.

I think my artist analogy is perfectly suitable, not as a bulletproof argument but as an alternative, possibly among many.

There is no reason to assume that in the act of creation God holds his omniscience in the forefront of his mind. I think western theology like what comes from Aquinas leaves little room for creativity and intuition and makes God into some sort of super engineer.

What if God is something of an artist? What if God creates from a different state of being than left brain planning and matching and manipulating? What if God creates in a burst of love and inspiration and only then sees what the end of it all will be not because he couldn't see but because its more fun not to?

Artists do this ALL the time. I am in a band and we do it exclusively at this point. We only come together and tune in to the Spirit and allow it to lead us and none of us knows where it is going beforehand. We often enter or are led into exquisitely beautiful territory this way. We got the inspiration on how to do this from our relationship with God.

 

[Phr3121]

I like that take man. I had never really though about the why of it because I try not to project anything onto Jesus from my own thinking. I hold him in such a reverence and dont think that I can understand him really. Not fully at least. Just sitting here though I feel like he was busy turning history towards God, accomplishing salvation and knew that the message would come through the disciples basically intact. People lower on the totem pole do the writing....

Well it has been a journey for me and it is still. I don't have all the answers and still question things. Religion and politics are difficult topics to discuss. I'm Catholic. My religious beliefs don't really come from the Bible or church, it comes from personal experience with life and people. I was a doubter myself, but in time things began to make sense. Fall into place. A few things happened to me along the way, not all of them good. But through it all, I do believe in God and some form of afterlife. I was in the military and later worked with animals. Some of the things I've seen men do to each other and animals makes me ashamed to be human sometimes. I definitely believe in a just God. You harm innocent human beings (specially women and children) or animals and you will be rewarded likewise. Repenting is not as simple as people think. God can tell the fake ones from the real ones. The message is simple: Be a good person, help those in need (be they humans or animals), fight against evil in this world. Good luck in your journey...

 

[franklinstower]

Well it has been a journey for me and it is still. I don't have all the answers and still question things. Religion and politics are difficult topics to discuss. I'm Catholic. My religious beliefs don't really come from the Bible or church, it comes from personal experience with life and people. I was a doubter myself, but in time things began to make sense. Fall into place. A few things happened to me along the way, not all of them good. But through it all, I do believe in God and some form of afterlife. I was in the military and later worked with animals. Some of the things I've seen men do to each other and animals makes me ashamed to be human sometimes. I definitely believe in a just God. You harm innocent human beings (specially women and children) or animals and you will be rewarded likewise. Repenting is not as simple as people think. God can tell the fake ones from the real ones. The message is simple: Be a good person, help those in need (be they humans or animals), fight against evil in this world. Good luck in your journey...

Awesome man. My wife is Catholic and I love that religion but also love the Orthodox Church equally. My spiritual advisory for the last 15 years is a Trappist monk-- Catholic.

 

[hillelslovak87]

OK I think I finally understand the perspective. Holy shit that took me a while.....

You said--

Now, if God knows everything that will happen, perfectly and completely, he cannot change anything, or he will have had an incorrect knowledge of the future.

This isn't very important but he could change things all the time but his changing things would be a part of his knowing.

To your last point about the act of creation being determined in the very act I cant see that this is a bulletproof argument. I think it assumes a lot about God from a limited amount of information.

I think my artist analogy is perfectly suitable, not as a bulletproof argument but as an alternative, possibly among many.

There is no reason to assume that in the act of creation God holds his omniscience in the forefront of his mind. I think western theology like what comes from Aquinas leaves little room for creativity and intuition and makes God into some sort of super engineer.

What if God is something of an artist? What if God creates from a different state of being than left brain planning and matching and manipulating? What if God creates in a burst of love and inspiration and only then sees what the end of it all will be not because he couldn't see but because its more fun not to?

Artists do this ALL the time. I am in a band and we do it exclusively at this point. We only come together and tune in to the Spirit and allow it to lead us and none of us knows where it is going beforehand. We often enter or are led into exquisitely beautiful territory this way. We got the inspiration on how to do this from our relationship with God.

No, if God knew all of time at the beginning of time, his actions, along with human actions, are set in stone. To alter the future invalidates the original knowledge. But let us say God can intervene. Human will is still invalidated. God still knows any action you will take, so there is no real choice for you to make in the first place.

In any case, if God knows he will intervene in any case, from the beginning of time, the changes he chooses to make are set in stone. For me to know every action I will ever make, this makes me incapable of taking an action I do not know the result of.

 

[franklinstower]

No, if God knew all of time at the beginning of time, his actions, along with human actions, are set in stone. To alter the future invalidates the original knowledge. But let us say God can intervene. Human will is still invalidated. God still knows any action you will take, so there is no real choice for you to make in the first place.

In any case, if God knows he will intervene in any case, from the beginning of time, the changes he chooses to make are set in stone. For me to know every action I will ever make, this makes me incapable of taking an action I do not know the result of.

I can see your point here but cant see how it is the only possible outcome. You did not address the bulk of my post though.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I can see your point here but cant see how it is the only possible outcome. You did not address the bulk of my post though.

The rest of your point, I think it is false in the same way as the part I addressed. If a painter knew the end product of his painting, any changes he chose in the interim would have to be within his original viewing of the end product, lest his original viewing be wrong.

In short, if I know the end product of anything, and all the variables that lead to that end product, I can either change the end product and invalidate my original vision, or I will conform to the vision.

A painter is fine making his changes, where God is supposed to be perfect, have knowledge of everything, AND allow free will. These are incompatible. There can be no consequences of one's choices when the God has wiped away all of the options, save the one he knows you will make.

 

[franklinstower]

The rest of your point, I think it is false in the same way as the part I addressed. If a painter knew the end product of his painting, any changes he chose in the interim would have to be within his original viewing of the end product, lest his original viewing be wrong.

In short, if I know the end product of anything, and all the variables that lead to that end product, I can either change the end product and invalidate my original vision, or I will conform to the vision.

A painter is fine making his changes, where God is supposed to be perfect, have knowledge of everything, AND allow free will. These are incompatible. There can be no consequences of one's choices when the God has wiped away all of the options, save the one he knows you will make.

I finally understand the argument and am not impressed with it frankly. It takes a small amount of information about God and makes too much of it.


You said--

If a painter knew the end product of his painting, any changes he chose in the interim would have to be within his original viewing of the end product, lest his original viewing be wrong.

But that does not address what I said--

"There is no reason to assume that in the act of creation God holds his omniscience in the forefront of his mind. I think western theology like what comes from Aquinas leaves little room for creativity and intuition and makes God into some sort of super engineer."

"What if God is something of an artist? What if God creates from a different state of being than left brain planning and matching and manipulating? What if God creates in a burst of love and inspiration and only then sees what the end of it all will be not because he couldn't see but because its more fun not to?"

Bottom line is I thought of that from my own life experience two hours after I had been exposed to the idea and got it.... it is unreasonable to assume what you do about God while knowing so little about Gods life and being...

I am not a fan of arguing or debating and have learned something from our discussion today so I thank you. I dont see the necessity of your position. I dont see the necessity of mine either but it seems just as plausible to me.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I finally understand the argument and am not impressed with it frankly. It takes a small amount of information about God and makes too much of it.


You said--

If a painter knew the end product of his painting, any changes he chose in the interim would have to be within his original viewing of the end product, lest his original viewing be wrong.

But that does not address what I said--

"There is no reason to assume that in the act of creation God holds his omniscience in the forefront of his mind. I think western theology like what comes from Aquinas leaves little room for creativity and intuition and makes God into some sort of super engineer."

"What if God is something of an artist? What if God creates from a different state of being than left brain planning and matching and manipulating? What if God creates in a burst of love and inspiration and only then sees what the end of it all will be not because he couldn't see but because its more fun not to?"

Bottom line is I thought of that from my own life experience two hours after I had been exposed to the idea and got it.... it is unreasonable to assume what you do about God while knowing so little about Gods life and being...

I am not a fan of arguing or debating and have learned something from our discussion today so I thank you. I dont see the necessity of your position. I dont see the necessity of mine either but it seems just as plausible to me.

To be fair, we dont really have much information on any God, so we have to take what we can from the religious texts themselves, alongside christian, jewish, muslim etc scholarship.

Your highlighted areas: From what I was brought up on, by adults with scripture in hand, was that God knows everything about us, everything about our lives. EVERYTHING. So for him to purposefully blind himself in some fashion for fun, seems absurd to me.

And on Aquinas, I would not really take him seriously on much. He once wrote a book, then asked God for a book review. Apparently God gave him a good review, and he was seen levitating around the parrish. Not someone I would consider reliable haha.

 

[Post 2 Decision]

Christianity is all good in my book if it's teaching people how to live life in a kind, caring, loving way. I do not deny the existence of Jesus (as a man) and I believe he was a great guy trying to help people, and what happened to him is awful. I'm all for that, but the idea of an afterlife is batshit crazy to me. Heaven and Hell is right here on Earth, it's what we make it. The idea that an all-loving God would send people to hell for eternity doesn't sound like someone I want to dedicate my life to worshipping.

 

[Phr3121]

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm glad there is a raft of errors in the Jesus story, that makes it extremely implausible. Dooming children for the sins of their father's is well regarded among modern humanity as being an extremely immoral proposition. How dare you even suggest as if you have anything to offer in a moral discussion while proposing such evil.

I am not angry, I'm annoyed. It matters to me, the fact that you want to promote nonsense. If God has every action laid out since the beginning of time, we are literally incapable of doing anything that is not according to his will. Since we are incapable of doing anything that is not his will, there is no indeterminacy, thus there are no real choices to make.

God gives you two doors before you, he closes one completely, and you go through the other, like he knew you would. This is not your choice.

Its quite simple, if God is omniscient there is no such thing as free will, but this is something is incredible hard for theist to accept. They come up with no logical things like only God knows... And "so what if God knows, he's not forcing you to take such actions" ridiculous crap. If God is omniscient, the that means your whole life is set on stone the moment you are born, and you cannot change that.. He knows what you will do, ans if this is the case, what the hell for are we here on earth? Hitler was doomed to be one of the biggest monster in the history of human kind, he had no chance to change his life, if he had, the. God wouldn't have known that he was going to be a mass murdered in advance. It's call the free will dilemma. Now try to reason about this with theists, you'll be hitting your head against a rock soon enough...

 

[franklinstower]

To be fair, we dont really have much information on any God, so we have to take what we can from the religious texts themselves, alongside christian, jewish, muslim etc scholarship.

Your highlighted areas: From what I was brought up on, by adults with scripture in hand, was that God knows everything about us, everything about our lives. EVERYTHING. So for him to purposefully blind himself in some fashion for fun, seems absurd to me.

And on Aquinas, I would not really take him seriously on much. He once wrote a book, then asked God for a book review. Apparently God gave him a good review, and he was seen levitating around the parrish. Not someone I would consider reliable haha.

Well it would be more than just for fun, it would be a profound act of creative love bursting forth from the heart, filled with meaning and depth, just like great art. Just like creation if you ask me.

That aside. I watched a debate between a rabbi and an atheist. The atheist was one of the four horsemen but I just cant remember which one he was. He brought up a similar point as you have but the rabbi just said "Who says God is all knowing and all powerful?" Apparently that is not Jewish thinking on the subject...

He went on to say that God only has an influential power in the world. I thought that was really neat and interesting.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

But God does not program humans does he? Yes, you can have it both ways. God gives you free will, the choice is yours to make, and God already knows what choice you will make.

No you can't, if God knows your choices then it means you cannot change tournlife, you may be on control of what you do or not, but that doesn't change the fact that he created a creature that was doomed to go to hell since the day he was born... If he has the chance to correct his life, then that would mean that God doesn't know the future, since human beings are creating a different future with each action he takes. Unless you believe in multiple universes going on at the same time, then there is no possibl logical way to reconcile God omniscient powers and free will.

 

[franklinstower]

Its quite simple, if God is omniscient there is no such thing as free will, but this is something is incredible hard for theist to accept. They come up with no logical things like only God knows... And "so what if God knows, he's not forcing you to take such actions" ridiculous crap. If God is omniscient, the that means your whole life is set on stone the moment you are born, and you cannot change that.. He knows what you will do, ans if this is the case, what the hell for are we here on earth? Hitler was doomed to be one of the biggest monster in the history of human kind, he had no chance to change his life, if he had, the. God wouldn't have known that he was going to be a mass murdered in advance. It's call the free will dilemma. Now try to reason about this with theists, you'll be hitting your head against a rock soon enough...

You can do anything you want in this setup. Literally anything you can think of right now you can do. You can have any kind of life you desire-- go do it. Do you not feel free and filled with excitement to exist and live? I do.

I think you dont like the idea because you feel the weight of it, but I dont feel any weight at all. Hitler did change his life, all through it but he chose what he chose.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You can do anything you want in this setup. Literally anything you can think of right now you can do. You can have any kind of life you desire-- go do it. Do you not feel free and filled with excitement to exist and live? I do.

I think you dont like the idea because you feel the weight of it, but I dont feel any weight at all. Hitler did change his life, all through it but he chose what he chose.

I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying there's no a single out future... Because you create a different future with every action...

You can chose to go to college or not, each action will create andifferent future, if God knew your choice would've been, then the whole concept of fee will is irrelevant. you were born to do stuff, your life is written and no matter what, you can't change that, if you could, then God wouldn't have been able to know how your life was going to end.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

According to the Bible, and the history of christian scholarship, God is

Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent.

Since he is omniscient, he knows all. He knows everything that ever happened, and everything that ever will happen, even after he raptures people and this dimension is seemingly done away with. He is also omnipotent, meaning he can change anything he wants.

Now, if God knows everything that will happen, perfectly and completely, he cannot change anything, or he will have had an incorrect knowledge of the future.

On free will. If he has set everything down, every action, variable, everything, then whatever choices you think you make, they were already slated to happen, meaning your choice is an illusion. For there to be free will, there needs to be indeterminacy. If God already has your choice set, there is no way for you to actually take the other choice. It's like saying a computer has free will because you pushed the e key, yet the computer chose not to push the r key.

Theists brains going boooommmm trying to reconcile this with their views...

 

[hillelslovak87]

Well it would be more than just for fun, it would be a profound act of creative love bursting forth from the heart, filled with meaning and depth, just like great art. Just like creation if you ask me.

That aside. I watched a debate between a rabbi and an atheist. The atheist was one of the four horsemen but I just cant remember which one he was. He brought up a similar point as you have but the rabbi just said "Who says God is all knowing and all powerful?" Apparently that is not Jewish thinking on the subject...

He went on to say that God only has an influential power in the world. I thought that was really neat and interesting.

I am fairly certain you are referencing David Wolfe, Wolfpe? and Christopher Hitchens. Jewish thinking on the old testament is a long way from talmudic rationale. Jews, per capita, are maybe the most secular group on Earth, especially across Europe and the US.

On God's omniscience

Romans 8:38-39New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalms 149:1-3 illuminates this view further, and makes God's omniscience personal to humans

1 O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.

Psalms 139:5 says

“You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.”

Psalms 147:4-5 states

4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name. 5 Great is our Lord, and i mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.

Now, on numerous occasions, God purposefully, and directly sends people on missions, like Joseph. Joesph tells his brothers that God put him into slavery by their hand for a specific reason.

God even goes as far as to know the hairs on your head. The Bible does not leave any room for a God that explodes in creativity, and then is not involved in human affairs. According to the Bible, he is all knowing, and all powerful, despite the fact that you cant be all powerful and all knowing at the same time.

EDIT-Maybe it was Kusher?

Hitchens savages his immorality in this video.