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do u feel grapplers really respect standup arts

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by devante, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    Many times in watching the ufc i have noticed how there were striker or grappler categories; but as time went on i began to see that both stylist began to eff learn the others arts and to input them into their own fightplan.

    Nonetheless i feel as if people have shown a real respect for the grappling arts, so much so that the strikers are capable of defending subs..takedowns..or get back to their feet as well as a top notch grappler; hell i have even seen some strikers who have eff been able to apply submissions against wrestler/grappler types. Not saying the strikers will go out and win abu dhabi and so on; but in the mma forum they have shown an ability to eff def/apply subs against vastly superior grapplers. They don't just use the grappling to def subs or escape subs and takedowns to use their strikes, they use grappling to finish people who are supposed to have the adv on the ground.

    examples : spratt v light (light takes spratt down, spratt spins into an armbar and wins spratt is the standup kickboxer..light a wrestler who works w/tito)

    edwards: edwards v franca (he was able to eff def/escape and counter any and all subs applied by a guy who's ground game is respected in and out of the mma community) Edwards v serra ( edwards was able to def/counter/escape takedowns, ground control and subs against a guy who was at one point one of the best grapplers in the world) Yves is balanced but is much more a striker that a grappler period. (he tapped the guy in japan who was supposed to be some kind of skilled grappler)

    cro cop : tapped randleman w/a guillotine ( randleman world class wrestler who even top bjj guys have had trouble tapping, gets finished by a kickboxer who also subbed him faster than he had ever been tapped in his life)

    These are just examples of guys who have developed their ground game enough to eff def/escape and apply subs w/guys who's discipline is ground work, whereas they are using it as something to round out their own skills.

    When a striker gets tapped or taken down or controlled, i can see that the reason is their opp has more exp and a higher skill set in that area.

    On the other hand the grapplers just don't seem like they work on their standup enough to truly be eff; alot of them get by on ability, power/toughness. To me they don't showcase alot more skill than the guys in the earlier ufc's. It is as if they use the standup only to work to the ground and if they can't get their they get their asses handed to them; whereas the strikers if taken down have been able to sub guys or at least be able to mount an off in regards to reversals...takedowns or ground control. You see the dev.

    W/alot of the grapplers it seems as if they did not really work on their allround game, they worked on def or maybe off; but did not do both equally or they did not learn the art from the ground up..nor did they put in alot of (hard) ring time. As shown w/their inability to adjust standing or the way they react to strikes.

    EX: tito ortiz: any fight he has been in he has been dominated standing, an everytime he gets hit he shoots. He did it against sinosic (he got caught w/a hgh kick) against f.shamrock (got caught w/a r.cross and an uppercut) against liddel ( caught a pucnch and then shot) against mezger (they were stood up he flurried, but when he saw he could not get through guy's guard he shot again) My point is that he says he really works standing, but i can't see it; he always gets caught and always shoots; an i know he is a wrestler. But he is still too predictable and that is what got him caught against frank/guy, he couldn't take the heat standing..shot in and got choked. An when he can't take someone down he resorts to being def until a)he can get the td or b) he gets koed. I mean every fight he has been in he has been caught (ken dropped him..silva dropped him..kondo dropped him...sinosic rocked him..frank rocked him...guy just picked him apart)

    Ricco Rodriguez: he has show poor off and def against any opp who has any basic skills and is not fearful of firing back; if he can't take u down or can't intimidate u he basically becomes a heavybag. I mean if he can't take u down he is like tito def and looking for a takedown, which makes it harder to get cus they know he is not trying to do anything but.

    Robbie Lawler: To my knowledge was a wrestler He gets by on ability, u take away his chin and power and he is just a ko victim waiting to happen and after how many years of fighting he still has not. A) shortened up his punches..b)does not setup his punches c) not learned to def leg kicks d) does not punch in combination. He is the opp of tito/ricco, lots of heart and toughness, but no real applicable skill when in an actual fight w/a opp who has the ability to deal w/the firepower he is dishing out; he has no ability to adjust and continues to walk right in and has been exposed (tiki was controlling him and picking him apart until he landed a bomb) (spratt dismantled him standing due to his inability to put punches together control the dist and def leg kicks) Lytle ( picked him apart and controlled the pace, by setting up strikes and capitalizing on his lunging, wide hooks and over aggression) Diaz (frustrated him w/movement and trashtalk and countered him and his wide..loaded up lunging strikes)

    I am sure some grapplers have fine tuned their standup, but honestly it seems like they only develop enough to survive long enough to apply their grappling; while the strikers have shown to def well enough to apply their standup or if they cna't use strikes can actually finish/win using grappling. See the diff.

    An as i watch grapplers who try to strike i just see that they don't spar a whole lot, and that they split time w/their training grappling/striking an did not really shore up the standup aspect of their game. Guys say they have but after watching them..i don't see the progression which at this level should be obvious at this time; the strikers i have seen really grow in regards to their ground skills.

    do u think standup has established the importance and respect that grappling has... lemme put it like this i can see a guy on the ground now and not really know if he is a strker who uses grappling; but i can spot a grappler who is using striking, the disparity is obvious.
     
  2. DIYWMD

    DIYWMD Banned Banned

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    That's a long post for a short question. Everyone crosstrains today so there has to be some mutual respect. It varies person to person however.
     
  3. Corey123

    Corey123 Guest

    Wow, very long post. But very good.


    I think that everyone has to respect the other person's art(s) in a way. Some people prefer certain aspects to the fight game because that's what they have been doing all their life but I think that everyone does respect other arts even though they don't show it. You may not like the art, but you need to respect it to be successful in what you do, whether it is MMA or even a fight on the street. You need to cross-train. I'm mostly a grappler but I have great respect for stand-up arts, because if I want to be good in MMA, I need to know all aspects of the game. If I'm ignorant and I just train one art, then I'll be going nowhere fast. Take Chuck Liddell for example. He prefers standing up but he is still learning grappling, because if he didn't know grappling he would be taken down and GnP or submitted. All the guys you have said are prime examples of fighters that prefer one thing but still learn the other to stay on top.
     
  4. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    Grapplers who fight MMA definitely respect Striking arts like MT and Boxing, as well as Greco-Roman and Freestyle.
     
  5. Hater_Huntin

    Hater_Huntin White Belt

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    I would have to say that grapplers most likely will respect strikers if they would like to succeed in mma however i suppose it all depends on if it's a well established striker or if it's some "know it all" that claims to be the toughest in the world because of their particular martial art
     
  6. MTJJ_PuMpED

    MTJJ_PuMpED Guest

    Depends ont he person.
     
  7. MTJJ_PuMpED

    MTJJ_PuMpED Guest

    By the way does anyone know how long it takes for these yellow cards to go awaY? so i can create threads.. lol
     
  8. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    when i say respect, i mean in regards to how they use it; as i mentioned in my earlier post most grapplers say that i respect striking and i work on it, yet they show no progression in their tech, conditioning or ability to react to punishment or diff strategies in the ring.
    Almost all the strikers i see have incorporated grappling and seem to have worked on it, i have seen the progression in their skills; before they could not stop a takedown or could not get back to their feet or could not defend subs. Now they can do all that and can eff apply the same tech against guys whose main discipline is grappling. They learned the tech and have done the work to be able to adjust, defend and last if they spend an extended time on the mat.
    The grapplers seem to learn just enough to get u to the ground and if they cant get u to the ground, then they get their asses handed to them...tito ricco are great examples of this

    That is wht i mean by respect, hell even on a local level; i have learned how to def..reverse..sprawl..control an opp on the ground.. but mose of the grapplers i know still can't slip a jab...put together a combination..use good footwork..or setup strikes. Most of them just come out and try to establish off, if they can't do that they become punching bags.. who shoot blindly for takedowns or lunge for clinches. Whereas all the strikers i have seen have learned how to defend..takedowns..reverse them...counter and apply subs very well; it just seems like the strikrs respect the grappling more and dev the skills to compete in that range much moreso than grapplers do.
     
  9. joe broadway

    joe broadway Unbeatable

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    it seems that grapplers for the most part, and people who know the mma game at a low level, hold grapplers superior to other arts namely standing arts. to a trained mma striker (someone who can thwart takedowns) and a seasoned ufc/pride couch potato, i dont think grapplers are held in the same esteem they were before strikers got wise and learned how to defend takedowns
     
  10. Skyline21

    Skyline21 Purple Belt

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    funny how u used randleman crocop as an example of this dont you think?
     
  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You may want to do yourself a favor and read the Sherdog rules. The duration of dubs is listed there as is everything that you need to know to prevent them from occurring again, or a ban being enforced.

    Strikers had long been disrespected in MMA. I don't know how many times when the UFC's first came out I heard "man Karate guys suck, BJJ is the greatest ever" (and that shit still persists even now here on Sherdog) then the Wrestlers started to dominate and every High School Wrestler I met (I was in High School at the time) was convinced they could whoop my ass by just taking me down to the ground. Now you have more Strikers wising up and what has happened is you now have guys who crosstrain and this "MMA" style of hybrid fighting, which results in 22 year-old kids attempting to tell 15-year Martial Artists how much they suck based on their experience of 1 year of Boxing, 6 months of Muay Thai, and 4 years of BJJ (all being learned in the span of maybe 5 years total). Just because every now and again the get in a cage and get bloodied or bloody someone. The World's best Strikers tend to be guys who have nothing to prove. Why? Because quite frankly most of the eldest stand-up Arts don't teach Sport fighting. They teach you to punch someone in the larynx if your life is in danger. Strike fast, strike hard, if he dies, oh well, it was he or you. Plus Kickboxing and Sport Stand-up tournaments had already long-been established. Everyone seems to think K-1 began it all. No. You have the ITF, you have ISKA, you have every other organization around the World. Until recent days of MMA becoming a high-paying Sport for it's elite personalities and Artists, you will now begin to see more of the World's best Strikers in terms of Sport Fighting come out of the Woodwork.

    I can guarantee you had MMA come about in earlier days in the States (mind you it was pretty damn illegal for a long-time, the UFC had to do a lot to get it Sanctioned by State Athletic Commissions), you would have seen guys like Norris, Don Wilson, Benny Urquidez, Tokey Hill, Billy Blanks (say what you will about Tae Bo but the truth is the dude was Murder in full-contact competitions when he was the 11-time Champ in the States), Keith Hirabayashi, John Liu, and many others who were renowned Competitors in their day doing very well for themselves in the Octagon or the Cage.
     
  12. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    I gotta say, if you're talking about grapplers who do MMA, most recognize the need to learn striking. You seem to be equating "respect" with "success." I equate respect with " a healthy fear of " or " acknowledgement ". Grapplers who fit your bill of respect could be: Noguiera, Chris Brennan, Bonnar, Doerksen, Ryan Gracie, and co. These guys might not be the best at striking, but they all work on it, and are top-flight grapplers.

    Now if you're asking, do grapplers respect traditional stand-up arts likef : karate, TKD, kung-fu- the answer is, proly not.
     
  13. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    Never would I disrespect Billy Blanks. People who only know about Tae Bo might make fun of him, but the rest of us know how good he was. Plus he was going after the money with Tae Bo. Screw it. Good for him. These guys have to make a living. Same with Norris and his Total Gym. Not going to buy one, but more power to him.

    I think striking is getting more respect. Especially with regards to kicking. When UFC came out the prevailing wisdom was: Nothing is more useless than a kick.

    And it is still out there. Crocop can finish twelve guys with his LHK and there will still be people who say, "Yeah. He is a one trick pony. He's going to get it in the end." So when he loses one it is, "See! He sucks!" Nevermind that his style might give him numerous wins. People will wait until a lose proves their own agenda.

    But most people just want exciting fights. So if the Crow finishes a fight with a spinning back kick they say, "That was awesome! I love variety in my MMA."

    And that is what I like about it. The variety. Cool takedowns, subs, and knockouts. I'm guessing as time goes on you'll see more and more respect for striking.
     
  14. possenti

    possenti I knew all the rules-but the rules did not know me

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    You're right. When did kicks start re-emerging in MMA (at least the UFC)???

    Marco Ruas vs. Paul Varlens. I believe kickers started gaining more respect after that fight.
     
  15. zaner

    zaner Banned Banned

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    I've been saying this for years and I've got it all practiced up. Here is the deal. The reason that a grappler fresh out of class will dominate (usually) a striker is not because either one is more dangerous or better. THINK! Where do all grappling matches start concerning position? STANDING! They don't strike I know but they learn at least a little about moving, balance, reach, distance, footwork and all that while standing and going for the takedown. Strikers never go to the ground! EVER! When it goes to the ground and its not a KO< they just casually stand up. They have no idea what to do whereas grapplers have an idea at least. Japanese JJ and BJJ has self defense application that actually teaches to close the gap without getting hit. Boxing, kickboxing, thai, karate etc. doesnt prepare a person for ground fighting.
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    See this is the kind of shit I was referring to when I mentioned how every single High School Wrestler I talked to while in High School would tell me how useless my Martial Arts training was.

    Allow me to alert you to something that will help you not come off as such a tool when you talk among reputable Strikers. Since you've put so much thought and effort into coming up with this gross generlization.

    Strikers who are worth a shit (don't know how many you've ever faced, but what you said really applies mainly to Strikers who have faced no adversity in the World and have been very isolated in their training and experience) have been onto this "I'll just bum rush you, take you down, and beat your ass" mentality. People have been going at Strikers this way for YEARS. BJJ and MMA did not invent it. Whenever I myself as a guy walking around in the World have ever been confornted, nine times out of ten the second I show any savvy at fighting standing up, the opponent attempts to ground me. And yes, before you ask, I have come across people who were VERY good at what they did and I have lost my share of fights in general, but that's not to say when someone rushes a good Striker they're a deer in the fucking headlights. Any Striker who has faced adversity as a Striker has already been through that and has long-since been wise to it.

    Do not base everything you think about Stand-up Arts on your knowledge as attained by UFC and Pride DVD's, or the rhetoric floating around since MMA's inception. If you truly believe a grappler fresh out of class will dominate a Striker, then you have not at all seen the wide scope of the Martial Arts World. As most well-versed Strikers in credible Striking Arts knows exactly what to do when someone attempts to take them down.
     
  17. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    I see your point KK and I understand your frustration. Had to listen to plenty of wrestlers in my day as well. But then there were guys who I trained with who had an extensive wrestling background who would say, "Trust me. Wrestling can be countered with good stand up." The main guy who used to say this got 2nd in state for wrestling three years in a row. He was an awesome wrestler and, being a good all around athlete, awesome at stand up as well.

    Everyone has seen someone who is getting outboxed go for the clinch (hug and hold just to stop getting beat on). So you're right that strikers are familiar with holding tactics.

    But I have to disagree a bit. I think Zaner's point is a good one. Many strikers (including a guy like myself) haven't devoted enough training on what to do from the clinch. I totally agree with you that there are plenty of striking styles that address clinch work. But there are many that don't. Even with taking a grappling art like Sambo (as I am) I'm probably not well versed in clinch work as somebody training in Muay Thai, for example.

    And far from being useless (as was originally thought in early UFC and Pride days) time has shown that a striker with a little bit of ground knowledge is a dangerous thing.
     
  18. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's essentially what I'm saying. Of course there are Standup Arts that don't address ground fighting, but he specifically said any grappler FRESH out of class would dominate a Striker, which is just a stupid thing to day no matter what way you cut it.
     
  19. MTJJ_PuMpED

    MTJJ_PuMpED Guest

    I cant make a thread so ill put it here.. does anyone know when these double yellow cards will go away?
     
  20. zaner

    zaner Banned Banned

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    We have a misunderstanding here guys. I am a striker. JKD, Kempo, Thai boxing for five years. I've done a little amatuer boxing, kick boxing, and MMA. I'm not a fan of grapplers or grappling. This little speach is my defence to all these "tools" who say that striking is worthless. Now I'm sure after that response you won't acknowledge it but I have a point.

    Grapplers: standup fighting-limited but yes
    ground fighting yes
    Strikers: stand up fighting yes
    ground fighting fuck no

    Make sense this way?
     

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