Do men give women an inflated sense of their abilities by going easy on them in grappling?

[teamventure09]

So last night I was working as a bouncer at the patio outside my bar. We have a female regular there who's short and stocky and used to train with her sister who was a wrestler. She wanted to show me that she could pick me up so I abliged and let her then I proceeded to let her try and take me down for funzies. She went for a single leg and I only gave her 10 percent resistance cause I didn't want to ragdoll her in front of everyone that would make me look bad. I let her work on her efforts briefly and then turned my hips slightly and she fell and rolled onto the ground.
Anyway since I went way easy on her after that she thought she had almost beat me and she got pumped up like macho man randy savage. Huge ego boost for her even though she stood not even a slight chance.
Anyway, I avoid grappling in a competitive nature with women cause it wouldn't feel right to me going hard on them. Like another time I was forced to go against a woman in practice I just held her in side control and didn't do anything else cause it wouldn't feel right throwing her around.
I know there are very capable skilled women out there who can tangle with men but since most men don't feel comfortable going hard on a woman it leads to many women overestimating their abilities. This must be a common phenomenon.
What do you guys think?

 

[ChickenBrother]

So last night I was working as a bouncer at the patio outside my bar. We have a female regular there who's short and stocky and used to train with her sister who was a wrestler. She wanted to show me that she could pick me up so I abliged and let her then I proceeded to let her try and take me down for funzies. She went for a single leg and I only gave her 10 percent resistance cause I didn't want to ragdoll her in front of everyone that would make me look bad. I let her work on her efforts briefly and then turned my hips slightly and she fell and rolled onto the ground.
Anyway since I went way easy on her after that she thought she had almost beat me and she got pumped up like macho man randy savage. Huge ego boost for her even though she stood not even a slight chance.
Anyway, I avoid grappling in a competitive nature with women cause it wouldn't feel right to me going hard on them. Like another time I was forced to go against a woman in practice I just held her in side control and didn't do anything else cause it wouldn't feel right throwing her around.
I know there are very capable skilled women out there who can tangle with men but since most men don't feel comfortable going hard on a woman it leads to many women overestimating their abilities. This must be a common phenomenon.
What do you guys think?

It really depends on the chick, and it depends on the gym. Within the same gym among regular training partners, male and female, young and old, fit and fat, everyone who routinely goes with everyone else knows how they measure up against them.

IME an "inflated sense of their abilities" is a noob thing among folks who lack humility and self-awareness. Usually it's some dude with 6 months training and they're convinced they actually tapped that purple or brown without realizing the higher belt was taking it easy on them and letting them work.

Like you say, there are indeed skilled women out there but national+ level elite woman is roughly equal to good (but not elite) male HS athlete and that's just biology. So taking it easy on a woman is kind of like going easy on a smaller/weaker/older dude in training.

But best practice is avoid unironic dick measuring contests with women in public - it's not going to end well and is a lose/lose for the dude. It's like trying to win an argument with a woman - not going to happen.

 

[teamventure09]

It really depends on the chick, and it depends on the gym. Within the same gym among regular training partners, male and female, young and old, fit and fat, everyone who routinely goes with everyone else knows precisely how they measure up against them.

IME an "inflated sense of their abilities" is mostly a noob thing and usually folks who lack humility and self-awareness. Usually it's some dude with like 6 months of training and they're convinced they actually tapped that purple or brown without realizing the higher belt was taking it easy on them and letting them work.

Like you say, there are indeed skilled women out there but national+ level elite woman is roughly equal to good (but not elite) male HS athlete and that's just biology. So taking it easy on a woman is kind of like going easy on a smaller/weaker/older dude in training.

But best practice is to avoid unironic dick measuring contests with women in public - it's not going to end well is a lose/lose for the dude. It's like trying to win an argument with a woman - not going to happen.

It makes sense that it's mostly a noob thing. Maybe the phenomenon I should be addressing is noobs projecting their newness onto others. I've seen that happen that someone who's only recently started assumes everyone who walks in that they don't know is new. When I see a random person at the bar, I assume they know something. Better to not underestimate someone.

 

[HunterAcosta]

I find female partners great to flow roll with . Same with kids. Can just be rubbery and loose with no tension and can work all kinds of shit you can’t do with Large or spazzy ( or both ) males. Can also really work defense , particularly in gi as you give then grips you normally wouldn’t give . Now SOMETIMES though you have to man strength em .

 

[ChickenBrother]

It makes sense that it's mostly a noob thing. Maybe the phenomenon I should be addressing is noobs projecting their newness onto others. I've seen that happen that someone who's only recently started assumes everyone who walks in that they don't know is new. When I see a random person at the bar, I assume they know something. Better to not underestimate someone.

Yeah, you're talking about the white belt coach. Every gym has at least one. Some folks just need to let everyone else know that they know some shit.

Most folks who have trained for awhile are humble because they don't have anything to prove.

 

[teamventure09]

Yeah, you're talking about the white belt coach. Every gym has at least one. Some folks just need to let everyone else know that they know some shit.

Most folks who have trained for awhile are humble because they don't have anything to prove.

Exactly, I was doing a drill where we switch partners with everyone in the room, a guy I've never met asked me if I know what I'm doing with the drill, I just quietly told him "that's why I'm here is to learn."

 

[ChickenBrother]

I find female partners great to flow roll with . Same with kids. Can just be rubbery and loose with no tension and can work all kinds of shit you can’t do with Large or spazzy ( or both ) males. Can also really work defense , particularly in gi as you give then grips you normally wouldn’t give . Now SOMETIMES though you have to man strength em .

+1

Rolling with MOST women lets you focus on finesse and timing. But lol at sometimes having to use man strength. A few weeks ago at the wrestling gym we were going live takedowns and I ended up going with a woman I hadn't seen before who was probably 15 lbs lighter than me. So starting out I'm thinking OK this is a woman so Ima avoid muscling anything, aggressive snap downs, crossfaces, etc. So we tie up and while I'm thinking about how hard I should go, she shoots a high crotch and comes up into a single leg. Hmm K. So I'm hopping around on one foot half-assedly defending before realizing that I need to defend for real. But too late, she kicks my leg out and gets the TD. WTF. OK she can have one but I need to get the next one for the sake of my own ego. And I did but had to use SOME (but not all dammit) of my man strength. And then got two more TDs before the round ended but she hit some gnarly scrambles on me that had me questioning my manhood.

So the next class I'm talking to my buddy and I'm like, who was that woman that came in last week, she had some fucking sick scrambling for a female. And he goes, well, she should because she was an IBJJF world champ at BB and is just cross-training some wrestling. That made me feel a little better lol.

 

[teamventure09]

+1

Rolling with MOST women lets you focus on finesse and timing. But lol at sometimes having to use man strength. A few weeks ago at the wrestling gym we were going live takedowns and I ended up going with a woman I hadn't seen before who was probably 15 lbs lighter than me. So starting out I'm thinking OK this is a woman so Ima avoid muscling anything, aggressive snap downs, crossfaces, etc. So we tie up and while I'm thinking about how hard I should go, she shoots a high crotch and comes up into a single leg. Hmm K. So I'm hopping around on one foot half-assedly defending before realizing that I need to defend for real. But too late, she kicks my leg out and gets the TD. WTF. OK she can have one but I need to get the next one for the sake of my own ego. And I did but had to use SOME (but not all) of my man strength. And then got two more TDs before the round ended but she hit some gnarly scrambles on me that had me questioning my manhood.

So the next class I'm talking to my buddy and I'm like, who was that woman that came in last week, she had some fucking sick scrambling for a female. And he goes, well, she should because she was an IBJJF world champ at BB and is just cross-training some wrestling. That made me feel a little better lol.

Ya no shame in that. I remember watching two high level grapplers/mma fighters roll who were male and female both with wrestling backgrounds and they were the same size. I recall they rolled stalemate against each other.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Ya no shame in that. I remember watching two high level grapplers/mma fighters roll who were male and female both with wrestling backgrounds and they were the same size. I recall they rolled stalemate against each other.

I think if there is one ruleset where women can be close to men all else being equal, it's grappling on the ground. Many women are more flexible than men and most aren't used to relying on strength, which translates pretty great to BJJ and guard play in particular.

But takedowns require explosion off the feet, quick level change and/or upper body strength, all of which put women at a significant physical disadvantage. Even juiced women generally lack the explosion and "manhandle you" strength that trained dudes have. So any woman who can consistently take down trained dudes who aren't sandbagging is something special.

 

[teamventure09]

I think if there is one ruleset where women can be close to men all else being equal, it's grappling on the ground. Many women are more flexible than men and most aren't used to relying on strength, which translates pretty great to BJJ and guard play in particular.

But takedowns require explosion off the feet, quick level change and/or upper body strength, all of which put women at a significant physical disadvantage. Even juiced women generally lack the explosion and "manhandle you" strength that trained dudes have. So any woman who can consistently take down trained dudes who aren't sandbagging is something special.

One of our bouncers who's the most jacked and juiced up and used to wrestle, is phenomenal with takedowns. I saw footage of him double legging a guy who was 300 lbs and athletic.
The other night he demonstrated a duck under with me he was surprisingly quick as well despite all that caked on muscle.

 

[RJ Green]

larger men give smaller men an inflated sense of their abilities by going easy on them during sparring.

 

[yetanother]

larger men give smaller men an inflated sense of their abilities by going easy on them during sparring.

The crappy people at our gym give a lot of the not competing black belts at our gym an inflated sense of their abilities by falling pray to shit techniques that won't work on anyone actually decent.

 

[ChickenBrother]

larger men give smaller men an inflated sense of their abilities by going easy on them during sparring.

Smaller men give larger men an inflated sense of their abilities by getting smashed too easily during sparring.

 

[Kforcer]

Well, sometimes I've done that.

But I did have a woman who was a bronze medalist in the worlds come up to my practice when I was in high school while she was getting ready for another world championship tournament--my high school coach was an Olympic silver medalist and the first American Tbilisi winner back when that was touted as arguably the hardest tournament due to all the Soviet nations competing against one another--and basically, he was helping her get into shape, give her guidance, whatever. And most of the guys she went with on my team screwed around but he actually told her to go with me and basically indicated that since I was strong (or something) I'd be a really good workout for her.

We rolled for over an hour and she never took me down but she would get deep in on shots time and again. But I didn't really hold back on my strength because it seemed like my coach specifically picked me out for the purpose of pushing her and not holding back. It was crazy going with someone who was so technical yet, relatively speaking, so much physically weaker than me. But the weird part is then, later on, I saw her at the same gym I lifted at a few times....AND SHE NEVER SAID HI TO ME! So I don't know if she hates me or what. It didn't seem like she hated me at the time, even though she did actually start going for some standing arm-locks on me (it was like, 98 or 99 I believe, but she said she was into jiu jitsu), which in hindsight might be a sign of hostility.

Anyway, point is, as a youngster, I definitely went hard with a high level woman for over an hour and apparently there was something about the experience she didn't like. Or maybe she just didn't want a high school kid talking to her in public around her friends. Because I had sort of assumed that she and I were going to be friends for life after that.

There was actually another time I rolled with a high level female wrestler, way younger, who is coaching college wrestling now, who was set up to roll with me and my brother for some extra work or something. And we were trying to finesse things, because we're both physically strong and my brother is freakishly, freakishly strong and she told us that wrestling with us was way easier than wrestling with her teammates because they bullied her from the tie-up but she could get off shots against us way more easily. But for whatever its worth, we're still on speaking terms.

 

[ChickenBrother]

even though she did actually start going for some standing arm-locks on me

Wait, are we talking Lou Thesz rolling double wrist lock/Mark Schultz single leg kimura counter?





If so, I would have gone with it and let her have that. Any woman who attempts that from standing is a badass. Also I probably would have proposed. Seriously though, maybe she was just getting frustrated because nothing was working and pulled out all the stops, which is a compliment if she figured you could handle it without getting hurt. Woman or man, an international level competitor would probably be more worried about injuring a HS kid than the other way around.

We rolled for over an hour and she never took me down but she would get deep in on shots time and again. But I didn't really hold back on my strength because it seemed like my coach specifically picked me out for the purpose of pushing her and not holding back. It was crazy going with someone who was so technical yet, relatively speaking, so much physically weaker than me. But the weird part is then, later on, I saw her at the same gym I lifted at a few times....AND SHE NEVER SAID HI TO ME! So I don't know if she hates me or what. It didn't seem like she hated me at the time, even though she did actually start going for some standing arm-locks on me (it was like, 98 or 99 I believe, but she said she was into jiu jitsu), which in hindsight might be a sign of hostility.

Anyway, point is, as a youngster, I definitely went hard with a high level woman for over an hour and apparently there was something about the experience she didn't like. Or maybe she just didn't want a high school kid talking to her in public around her friends.

I wouldn't sweat it bro, but I think you hit on it with your last sentence. As a woman and high level competitor, it would have been awkward AF to be like, "Hey Kforcer, these are my friends! Friends, meet Kforcer, the HS kid who beat the shit out of me last week! [grumble grumble, you MFer]"

 

[Kforcer]

Wait, are we talking Lou Thesz rolling double wrist lock/Mark Schultz single leg kimura counter?





If so, I would have gone with it and let her have that. Any woman who attempts that from standing is a badass. Also I probably would have proposed. Seriously though, maybe she was just getting frustrated because nothing was working and pulled out all the stops, which is a compliment if she figured you could handle it without getting hurt. Woman or man, an international level competitor would probably be more worried about injuring a HS kid than the other way around.




I wouldn't sweat it bro, but I think you hit on it with your last sentence. As a woman and high level competitor, it would have been awkward AF to be like, "Hey Kforcer, these are my friends! Friends, meet Kforcer, the HS kid who beat the shit out of me last week! [grumble grumble, you MFer]"

Wasn't that on, which is just about my favorite move ever. It was more like a shoulder shrug into a two-on-one where she then tried to use pressure to straighten out my arm. I'd sort of like it to the Aoki standing armbar or what Strickland got mad at Orlando Sanchez for doing, except as I recall what she was doing was a lot safer than that. She'd shrugging my arm off, I think hit a two-on-one and then try to lock it out from there as I recall. She had a pretty crazy gas tank, I do remember that she was basically still going even towards the end. Man, if she'd done a rolling Kimura, that would've been really cool. I know she did start going for more jiu jitsu stuff towards the end, or at least what I perceived as such at the time, but I mostly just remember the standing arm-lock thing.

And yeah, if she had gone for the rolling Kimura, even if it was before I'd fallen in love with the move, I think I would've proposed as well, 100%. Although, good thing I didn't, since apparently I would've been shot down.

I actually wish I'd rolled with her more, I probably could've learned a lot going with someone that was that much more skilled than me but that much weaker. I should've asked her at the time how she kept penetrating so deep on my legs, for example. She was constantly getting in on my ankles, almost before I even knew she was there.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Wasn't that on, which is just about my favorite move ever. It was more like a shoulder shrug into a two-on-one where she then tried to use pressure to straighten out my arm. I'd sort of like it to the Aoki standing armbar or what Strickland got mad at Orlando Sanchez for doing, except as I recall what she was doing was a lot safer than that. She'd shrugging my arm off, I think hit a two-on-one and then try to lock it out from there as I recall. She had a pretty crazy gas tank, I do remember that she was basically still going even towards the end. Man, if she'd done a rolling Kimura, that would've been really cool. I know she did start going for more jiu jitsu stuff towards the end, or at least what I perceived as such at the time, but I mostly just remember the standing arm-lock thing.

And yeah, if she had gone for the rolling Kimura, even if it was before I'd fallen in love with the move, I think I would've proposed as well, 100%. Although, good thing I didn't, since apparently I would've been shot down.

I actually wish I'd rolled with her more, I probably could've learned a lot going with someone that was that much more skilled than me but that much weaker. I should've asked her at the time how she kept penetrating so deep on my legs, for example. She was constantly getting in on my ankles, almost before I even knew she was there.

Well with both women and sweep single legs, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I'm pretty sure there's a takeaway in there somewhere but I'm not sure if it's to take more shots or less. Probably more. Anyway at least in wrestling you can ask your training partner what you screwed up and why you got shot down. I mean you COULD try that with women but they would probably just think you're an idiot.

+1 on asking more technically skilled folks what they're doing to you. In my case however, I think it's as much what I'm doing WRONG as what they're doing right. And it doesn't help that I'm old AF and rusty on basic wrestling on account of being more of a BJJ guy lately. But started doing occasional adult classes at the wrestling gym my son goes to. And one of the coaches (college wrestler) that kept getting in on me when we paired up showed me what he was doing - as I was reaching for his neck to tie up, he'd block that with almost like an upward wing chun block on my bicep with his open hand as he was level changing into the shot. It was very slick but of course it helps to be 21 yo and super explosive AND polished at the move. I've tried to replicate this set up but I don't know if I can make it work on anyone who isn't also over 40 and as slow as I am now lol.

 

[TheMaster]

Well, sometimes I've done that.

But I did have a woman who was a bronze medalist in the worlds come up to my practice when I was in high school while she was getting ready for another world championship tournament--my high school coach was an Olympic silver medalist and the first American Tbilisi winner back when that was touted as arguably the hardest tournament due to all the Soviet nations competing against one another--and basically, he was helping her get into shape, give her guidance, whatever. And most of the guys she went with on my team screwed around but he actually told her to go with me and basically indicated that since I was strong (or something) I'd be a really good workout for her.

We rolled for over an hour and she never took me down but she would get deep in on shots time and again. But I didn't really hold back on my strength because it seemed like my coach specifically picked me out for the purpose of pushing her and not holding back. It was crazy going with someone who was so technical yet, relatively speaking, so much physically weaker than me. But the weird part is then, later on, I saw her at the same gym I lifted at a few times....AND SHE NEVER SAID HI TO ME! So I don't know if she hates me or what. It didn't seem like she hated me at the time, even though she did actually start going for some standing arm-locks on me (it was like, 98 or 99 I believe, but she said she was into jiu jitsu), which in hindsight might be a sign of hostility.

Anyway, point is, as a youngster, I definitely went hard with a high level woman for over an hour and apparently there was something about the experience she didn't like. Or maybe she just didn't want a high school kid talking to her in public around her friends. Because I had sort of assumed that she and I were going to be friends for life after that.

There was actually another time I rolled with a high level female wrestler, way younger, who is coaching college wrestling now, who was set up to roll with me and my brother for some extra work or something. And we were trying to finesse things, because we're both physically strong and my brother is freakishly, freakishly strong and she told us that wrestling with us was way easier than wrestling with her teammates because they bullied her from the tie-up but she could get off shots against us way more easily. But for whatever its worth, we're still on speaking terms.

I absolutely despise rolling with women. Its a lose-lose situation for the guy. With the gi, yes they do have a bit more of a chance but the strength disparity is ridiculous most of the time, it's like rolling with a child. I am more concerned over accidently injuring them. So yes, you can play along and let them get positions but I think that 95% of guys are holding back somewhat when they roll with them no matter the level, you look like an asshat if you were to go all out and they get hurt.

 

[Kforcer]

I absolutely despise rolling with women. Its a lose-lose situation for the guy. With the gi, yes they do have a bit more of a chance but the strength disparity is ridiculous most of the time, it's like rolling with a child. I am more concerned over accidently injuring them. So yes, you can play along and let them get positions but I think that 95% of guys are holding back somewhat when they roll with them no matter the level, you look like an asshat if you were to go all out and they get hurt.

I've had some great rolls with women, myself, but I've also had the experience of giving them inflated egos by turning off my strength or maybe just going too easy, period. There was a time I rolled with this chick who was the girlfriend of dude I'd competed against and, to be honest, beaten basically instantaneously with an Imanari roll and somehow, at the time, I felt like it would be a huge embarrassment for his girlfriend of all people to have any sort of showing against me. No idea where I got that thought, but I did. And anyway, she started the round outhustling and out-positioning me and I did my best to turn it on and give a good account of myself and ended up going for some rolling leglocks and having some pretty cool scrambles with her and I remember at the end of our roll she was like, "That was awesome!" and high-fived me, which was one of my most positive grappling experiences ever.

Personally, I think it is fine to turn your strength off with women and turn your technique on. Honestly, I think that's fine to do with men as well. I think there's a way to do where you're still working and still pushing them but not relying on size or strength to force things. The only danger, IMO, is that sometimes, with women, I find myself using them as "rest rounds" or just being too relaxed to the point where they're getting away with everything. There's a sweet spot, for sure. I remember with that same girl, having another roll where I laid back way too much, for example. I almost feel like, when it comes to women, especially skilled women, that as you turn off your strength--assuming you need to--you should kick your strategery and speed all that other stuff into overdrive and have a goal that they will come away from the roll impressed with your smoothness, your technique and your strategery and what not.

 

[Foppa21]

I don't think of it as gender/size/strength/skill etc. I simplify it further..... The person who is at a disadvantage essentially sets the pace. The person who ahs the advantage operates at that pace +1. IE just enough to control the situation so it doesn't get completely out of hand