Difference between bareknuckle defense and glove defense

[William Huggins]

That's exactly why Mas Oyama the founder of Kyokushin was against introducing gloves to Kyokushin tournaments, he thought it wasn't real enough, resulting now in a ruleset where you fight bare knuckle but it's not allowed to punch to the face.

Whatever you do, if you want to protect fighters' hands or faces by not allowing bare knuckle punching to the head, you're creating a ruleset which has a flow (be it with gloves or with no head punching).

Boxing is prize fighting, not about realism, gloves to protect fighters hands to allow them to fight more often and to stop early stoppage during a fight........ Totally different reasoning...

 

[Hotora86]

That's exactly why Mas Oyama the founder of Kyokushin was against introducing gloves to Kyokushin tournaments, he thought it wasn't real enough, resulting now in a ruleset where you fight bare knuckle but it's not allowed to punch to the face.

Whatever you do, if you want to protect fighters' hands or faces by not allowing bare knuckle punching to the head, you're creating a ruleset which has a flow (be it with gloves or with no head punching).

Completely agree with the post but the word you wanted to use is "flaw" (not flow). Sorry, grammar nazi.

 

[Tayski]

Completely agree with the post but the word you wanted to use is "flaw" (not flow). Sorry, grammar nazi.

Yeah thanks, it was a typo and I edited it (even though the word "flow" could still make sense in that sentence).

 

[Tayski]

Boxing is prize fighting, not about realism, gloves to protect fighters hands to allow them to fight more often and to stop early stoppage during a fight........ Totally different reasoning...

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The addition of gloves was of course not for realism, rather the opposite for safety. What I meant is that when you modify an element for fighter's safety you tend to create a unique style which differs from original bare knuckle boxing. Boxers have adapted their defence and new tactics using gloves, just like Kyokushin Karateka's have adapted to fighting bare knuckle without face punches, it changes the game quite a lot and you end up with a new distinct way of fighting.

 

[William Huggins]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The addition of gloves was of course not for realism, rather the opposite for safety. What I meant is that when you modify an element for fighter's safety you tend to create a unique style which differs from original bare knuckle boxing. Boxers have adapted their defence and new tactics using gloves, just like Kyokushin Karateka's have adapted to fighting bare knuckle without face punches, it changes the game quite a lot and you end up with a new distinct way of fighting.

Hmmmm not another one that likes to divert a boxing thread into being about karate.........

 

[Tayski]

Hmmmm not another one that likes to divert a boxing thread into being about karate.........

 

[Hotora86]

Hmmmm not another one that likes to divert a boxing thread into being about karate.........

It's natural to compare old bareknuckle boxing to a martial art that has always been bareknuckle. We might as well talk about Wing Chun or Dambe but I'm not knowledgeable in either.

 

[William Huggins]

It's natural to compare old bareknuckle boxing to a martial art that has always been bareknuckle. We might as well talk about Wing Chun or Dambe but I'm not knowledgeable in either.

Maybe......just maybe, Western fisticuffs is older and was exported to the East..........the West does export somethings to the East<Lmaoo>

 

[listrahtes]

That's exactly why Mas Oyama the founder of Kyokushin was against introducing gloves to Kyokushin tournaments, he thought it wasn't real enough, resulting now in a ruleset where you fight bare knuckle but it's not allowed to punch to the face.

Whatever you do, if you want to protect fighters' hands or faces by not allowing bare knuckle punching to the head, you're creating a ruleset which has a flaw (be it with gloves or with no head punching).

The "not real" enough critic at sports martial arts which creates "flaws" like with gloves always gives me a good laugh <Lmaoo>

My Karate coach back then also told me these fairy tales often enough.

Weaponless hand to hand combat is outdated for more than 100k years. Humans are not built for that and never were. Our main weapon is the brain. So if you want to get "real" go shoot a bullet at someone, throw a bomb or use a knife.

If "real" is meant for self defense, hell yes boxing/MT/ kickboxing is as real as it gets because no one gives a shit if a hand is broken if you are fighting for your life and a boxer who "only" has trained with padded gloves has distance management and power distribution down to a t BECAUSE he can train much more and more intense in live sparring/ heavy bag. He is much more competent in stand up fighting than any bareknuckle bum.

Btw: Bareknuckle was even outdated at the olympics in ancient greek. They also used different leather/bandage gloves regarding the time frame (himantes, oxys, sphairai) to protect the knuckles.

"glove" boxing also tends to slightly strenghten your hands without injuring them

 

[Sinister]

^I don't know about all that. For one thing, Roman "boxing" didn't look jack like the Boxing we think of. The cesti (or cestus) were added as weapons, not for protection. Going by descriptions and written accounts their boxing looked more like wind-milling hammer fists. Which makes sense considering how those things were designed. If you've ever hit something hard with something hard ON (relatively no padding) your hand, it doesn't help a lot. It makes more sense to grip the thing (roll of quarters, as an example). Modern boxing that has structure did not directly descend from those brutish practices. The earliest modern boxing instructors were also fencers. This is why bareknuckle boxing that became popularized was full of lunging motions that made just as much sense if there was a sword or dagger in either hand:





Also, no one is without concern for broken hands:

https://goo.gl/images/9PR1Dc

 

[ironkhan57]

I've been in bare knuckle fights at my old job dominos in Newark, bare knuckle you have more of a chance of making the other bleed then with gloves on, I had a few friendly rivalries at dominos with some of the Mexicans on the make line, we decided to settle it in the back of the place one of them is a karate black belt and I threw one superman punch at him and he started bleeding, the first time I was fighting him I took him down easily and choked him the second time I made his chin drop blood, and the third we were wearing gloves that I brought over their, and I landed 40 strikes on him while he landed only 20 you can see that fight on my Instagram @adambeastkhan, i had 5 street boxing matches with people around that store. If you know Newark you know it's not a nice place.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

The "not real" enough critic at sports martial arts which creates "flaws" like with gloves always gives me a good laugh <Lmaoo>

My Karate coach back then also told me these fairy tales often enough.

Weaponless hand to hand combat is outdated for more than 100k years. Humans are not built for that and never were. Our main weapon is the brain. So if you want to get "real" go shoot a bullet at someone, throw a bomb or use a knife.

If "real" is meant for self defense, hell yes boxing/MT/ kickboxing is as real as it gets because no one gives a shit if a hand is broken if you are fighting for your life and a boxer who "only" has trained with padded gloves has distance management and power distribution down to a t BECAUSE he can train much more and more intense in live sparring/ heavy bag. He is much more competent in stand up fighting than any bareknuckle bum.

Btw: Bareknuckle was even outdated at the olympics in ancient greek. They also used different leather/bandage gloves regarding the time frame (himantes, oxys, sphairai) to protect the knuckles.

"glove" boxing also tends to slightly strenghten your hands without injuring them

Not all fights are to the literal death that weapons fighting is. Many are games of dominance. Some self defense is just to stop a bully, or to bully someone. When it comes to using weapons, is usually not a fight, but just a sneak attack, and ends with just one blow.

Again not all fights are to the death. Sometimes, its just too hot heads want to go at it because they are mad, and want to let off some steam. In fact that is probably how the old bareknuckle pro bouts came about. Someone realized it was entertaining enough to profit.

When you say more intense sparring, do you just mean more volume punching? That is not necessarily an advantage tactically/strategically when transitioning to a format that curbs volume. If you mean physically, I am sure there are ways to prep without practicing by striking surfaces so hard with so much volume, you need to wear protective gloves for it.

 

[shincheckin]

Concern of hand injuries is why glove sizes increased in boxing in the first place.

What im trying to say, is that the fighter, during the fight, is not going to be thinking dont take that shot I might injure my hand, hes going to take shot.

 

[Sinister]

I'm not so sure about that. We know from indications of traumatic brain injury research that it appears headgear and bigger gloves didn't solve the problem of traumatic brain injuries. Some of the thought behind that is an illusion of safety with headgear and bigger gloves, which encourages fighters to fire with more abandon. These gloves are protecting my hands, so I can throw harder without worrying about them. That headgear is protecting his head, so he'll be alright. Remember when Art Jimmerson wore the one glove against Royse Gracie? Art was one of the only steadily working Professional fighters in that tournament and he wore the glove because of the nature of there being less rules. He didn't want to injure his hand and not be able to box after. Didn't put up much of a fight anyway and found an easy way out, but in my experience hand and wrist injuries are definitely on fighter's minds.

 

[aerius]

What im trying to say, is that the fighter, during the fight, is not going to be thinking dont take that shot I might injure my hand, hes going to take shot.

I'd say it depends. If the fighter is only fighting once a year he can afford to take the shot and break his hand. If on the other hand he needs to fight every couple months to make a living, well, that's gonna be a bit of a problem now ain't it? Gonna have to think a bit on the risk vs. reward, sure you could knock the guy out, but you'll also be out for 6 months with a broken hand and no money coming in. You could be 2-0 and living in a cardboard box or 4-2 and getting by ok.

 

[shincheckin]

I'd say it depends. If the fighter is only fighting once a year he can afford to take the shot and break his hand. If on the other hand he needs to fight every couple months to make a living, well, that's gonna be a bit of a problem now ain't it? Gonna have to think a bit on the risk vs. reward, sure you could knock the guy out, but you'll also be out for 6 months with a broken hand and no money coming in. You could be 2-0 and living in a cardboard box or 4-2 and getting by ok.

Yeah I agree with that, i just think that during the actual fight, its going to be very tough to sit down and weigh your options before you throw, you see a opening for a straight right, your not going to sit and be like let me weight my options out, your going to naturally react on that instant and throw, aiming for the face, hopefully you dont catch the forehead and break your hand. I mean the mentality i would think has to be to just "throw" without caution, because if you hesitate while you think, your going to miss the opportunity. I think it would be very hard to not "naturally react" and throw on an opening. Maybe it could be compared to leg kicking, you throw the kick when there is the opening, but theres no guarantee hes not gonna check it, but just cause hes might check it, you still throw anyways.

 

[shincheckin]

^I don't know about all that. For one thing, Roman "boxing" didn't look jack like the Boxing we think of. The cesti (or cestus) were added as weapons, not for protection. Going by descriptions and written accounts their boxing looked more like wind-milling hammer fists. Which makes sense considering how those things were designed. If you've ever hit something hard with something hard ON (relatively no padding) your hand, it doesn't help a lot. It makes more sense to grip the thing (roll of quarters, as an example). Modern boxing that has structure did not directly descend from those brutish practices. The earliest modern boxing instructors were also fencers. This is why bareknuckle boxing that became popularized was full of lunging motions that made just as much sense if there was a sword or dagger in either hand:





Also, no one is without concern for broken hands:

https://goo.gl/images/9PR1Dc

this is cool stuff right here. it just goes to show how all martial arts are connected in some way.

what is the deal with circling of the hands?

 

[Sinister]

this is cool stuff right here. it just goes to show how all martial arts are connected in some way.

what is the deal with circling of the hands?

Remember how I was indicating that before gloves, mid-range was a place you absolutely didn't want to linger in? I imagine the hand-circling was done in order to create a rhythm that can then be broken for element of surprise with a quick attack. Might cause a slight hesitation as you're moving through mid-range while the opponent catches onto the attack and then has to decide on a defensive move or counter, or just let one happen. That's the only function I can see it serving.

This would also apply to early gloves since they were smaller and filled with horse hair, not offering much in the ways of protective cover for defense.

 

[Hotora86]

Maybe......just maybe, Western fisticuffs is older and was exported to the East..........the West does export somethings to the East<Lmaoo>

Making a fist and hitting another dude is universal to the human race. Didn't have to be exported at all.

 

[William Huggins]

Making a fist and hitting another dude is universal to the human race. Didn't have to be exported at all.

Hmmmm, we are talking about boxing........not 2 random humans punching each other in the face........it is an art or do you think that's a word only reserved for something coming from the East.