Did Muhammad Ali's loss to Joe Frazier actually help his legacy?

[Fedorgasm]

It's weird to think that a loss could actually be a good thing for a boxer, but consider this.

Ali's 3 biggest career highlights are winning the belt from Liston, his improbable win over Foreman, and his unforgettable rivalry with Frazier.

But suppose he never lost to Frazier in that first fight.

There would be no rivalry. He would just be another good fighter that Ali disposed of along the way. Maybe Frazier would have even earned a rematch down the road, but even then, it wouldn't have been a big deal. He would be like George Chuvalo, who took Ali the distance twice but lost both times and rarely gets talked about anymore.

Frazier's win over Ali was the highlight of his career. If you take that away then Frazier's stock falls quite a bit, which means Ali's victories over Frazier wouldn't be a big deal. Certainly not a career highlight.

Of course erasing his loss to Frazier would've also extended his title reign by 2 years, which certainly would help his legacy, so there's a trade-off. Ali would've been champ until he lost to Ken Norton. But he would've won the belt right back in the rematch.

This means Ali would've been the champion when he faced George Foreman. Which takes some of the shine off his victory over Foreman, since Foreman would be just another challenger, and not a pathway for Ali to regain his greatness after seemingly losing it.

Also, one of the reasons Foreman was considered unstoppable was because he demolished the 2 guys that beat Ali, in Frazier and Norton. But now Foreman's victory over Frazier would be no big deal. Just another decent name on his list.

So Ali's victory over Foreman would still be impressive, but not quite the impossible career resurgence giant-slayer moment that it was in reality.

TLDR:
1. Without losing to Frazier, the greatest rivalry would've never happened
2. It would also make Ali's victory over Foreman less impressive
3. So Ali's career highlights would be victories over Liston, and a long title reign.
4. Even though it would have extended Ali's title reign for 2 years, I still think it would hurt his legacy more than it helps.

 

[treelo]

it most certainly did help him and his legacy

but lets not forget all the good work Frasier put in before he fought Ali, Frazier was a monster

 

[SuperLuigi]

I agree TS. At the end of the day we are animals programmed by evolution, we will always find a certain kind of story compelling. If Ali just shut down everyone he fought with no real challengers until he got old it would be like Larry Holmes where his record would technically be better on paper but everyone would look at it as a weaker era, essentially punishing fighters for success.

 

[ricc505]

I agree TS. At the end of the day we are animals programmed by evolution, we will always find a certain kind of story compelling. If Ali just shut down everyone he fought with no real challengers until he got old it would be like Larry Holmes where his record would technically be better on paper but everyone would look at it as a weaker era, essentially punishing fighters for success.

Well put. The losses and the drama humanized Ali and endeared him to his fans. Smart fighter's have a brand/personality and the right management and promotion to maintain it successfully. Sports for money is entertainment at it's core

 

[Fedorgasm]

I agree TS. At the end of the day we are animals programmed by evolution, we will always find a certain kind of story compelling. If Ali just shut down everyone he fought with no real challengers until he got old it would be like Larry Holmes where his record would technically be better on paper but everyone would look at it as a weaker era, essentially punishing fighters for success.

It's funny that you mention Holmes. Because he's the one that inspired the thought in my head.

I was thinking, "What if Holmes had a rivalry like Ali/Frazier?"

I mean Michael Spinks could've been it, I suppose. If the judges had scored that rematch properly then they'd be 1-1 against each other and would've needed to have a rubber match before either of them fought Tyson.

Could that have evolved into Larry's great rivalry? And would it have elevated his status more?

Or maybe he should've let Trevor Berbick beat him, so he could be his rival. They certainly hated each other!

 

[revoltub]

I think beating a prime Frazier at the top of his game would have helped his legacy more.

 

[Deaths Head]

Well it’s boxing where losing a fight then coming back makes one look better but in real time when you are more successful and don’t lose it’s a weak era but if you lose anyway in real time you’re a bum and you won’t actually be carefully examined and appreciated well over a decade after a fighter is retired …it’s boxing . Lol,

I have no real opinion on this , I think it definitely showed Ali wasn’t the flawless or unbeatable guy he ran into much better challenges in the 70”s . Had he beat Frazier the first time no one actually knows what would happen, a rematch probably happens sooner ? Foreman May fight Ali first ? Who knows .

 

[treelo]

I think beating a prime Frazier at the top of his game would have helped his legacy more.

if Frasier had of done half decent against Foreman, then Ali wouldnt be the Ali know today, the fact he got bounced about like a basketball and then what was considered an older shopworn Ali then beat Foreman pretty easily, that kind of sealed his(Ali's) status

It was the monster who beat Ali, who then got destroyed by Foreman, and Ali went on to beat them both....he was a special fighter

 

[SandisLL]

Frazier took health remainings.
Good episodes?

 

[mozfonky]

The quality of the first fight would make that fight historic all in itself no matter who won. People always rave about the Thrilla In Manila but the first fight was just better because both men were either in their prime or not far removed from it. And both guys put on superhuman performances. I still go watch that fight when I want to see how good heavyweight boxing could be.

If Ali had won a few more rounds and snagged it? I dunno, he was already slacking off in training so who's to say that one of the mediocrities would have beaten him because he really was overconfident to the point where it showed in his conditioning. In fact, people asked why Ali didn't dance much in the first Frazier fight, his answer? He said he knew he didn't train as well as he could have and didn't trust his legs to dance for 15 rounds.

Ali was notorious for slovenly training so the losses, always seemed to bring out the best of him, after Frazier he hit the comeback trail and although a lot of those fights made it look like he was on the downside, he was active and was in some sort of condition to be able to beat guys like Patterson, Foster and Chuvalo as well as some talented guys who people have forgotten like Al Blue Lewis, Joe Bugner, and Buster Mathis. Then, he loses to Norton in what concievably could have really been the end of the road or at least a major derailment towards the title. He gets his ass in top shape, 211 pounds, beats Norton, 212 for the Frazier rematch which people say was boring but Ali danced circles around Joe and had his legs back. George Chuvalo once said that Ali was improving after Norton but after his Foreman win, he started losing his edge again, it was something that not many people articulate but it was true.

It ain't the 60's people point to when they want to downgrade Ali (aside from the knockdowns which are always held against fighters forever) it's the losses when he wasn't at his best or properly trained or his controversial fights where people think he got gift decisions. It's never the heavyweight Champion who fought as many top fighters as he possibly could from 64-67. the comp wasn't there but he was also a very different fighter and still improving and working hard. If anything, I thought he might have looked a bit flat against Zora Folley (last 60's defense) because he was squeezing in as many fights as he could before he would be sent into exile and an uncertain future. Had Ali never fought again, people might rate that guy as the best ever even without the superior fighters he fought later, he was just that amazing.

 

[SandisLL]

When Ali had suspended license he had borrowed money without inferest rate from Frazier.
Later he told that Frazier is black n**** POS.
No one had beated ali so hard as frazier. " I will smoke you and take your health ".
Frazier and Norton had beated a lot of his brains remainings....Foreman and Shaver were simpler opponents.
Foreman had flowchart for relatively fast attempt to achieve KO.
Judges in some cases in 70 ies sandbagged Ali a lot until Don had decided that Holmes should be champion. Cos Ali then was ill and aging.

 

[mozfonky]

It's funny that you mention Holmes. Because he's the one that inspired the thought in my head.

I was thinking, "What if Holmes had a rivalry like Ali/Frazier?"

I mean Michael Spinks could've been it, I suppose. If the judges had scored that rematch properly then they'd be 1-1 against each other and would've needed to have a rubber match before either of them fought Tyson.

Could that have evolved into Larry's great rivalry? And would it have elevated his status more?

Or maybe he should've let Trevor Berbick beat him, so he could be his rival. They certainly hated each other!

Holmes had the misfortune to come after Ali and people just either were indifferent or plain didn't like him for usurping The Greatest.

Some say he didn't have the comp but he fought shavers and norton, got put down by a few contenders, got up to win, had some close fights that he won on guts or the judges favor. They always say he wasn't popular, he was popular enough and he's one of the minority of previous boxers to make more money and hold onto it than he would ever need. Bert Sugar once said he "fought guys who weren't household names in their own households" which is an interesting point of view, still, nearly 20 defenses is impressive. I would probably put him in the top 3 greatest heavyweights. He was a pretty complete fighter.

If he couldn't handle Berbick? A durable guy who really didn't have a lot of anything aside from being strong, big and tough? That wouldn't have helped him. Maybe if Cooney had panned out, that could have been his great rival but he ruined Cooney in their fight. The other guys who people thought would take the mantle? Like Greg Page, Tim Witherspoon or Carl Williams all fell short of their promise.

 

[mozfonky]

When Ali had suspended license he had borrowed money without inferest rate from Frazier.
Later he told that Frazier is black n**** POS.
No one had beated ali so hard as frazier. " I will smoke you and take your health ".
Frazier and Norton had beated a lot of his brains remainings....Foreman and Shaver were simpler opponents.
Foreman had flowchart for relatively fast attempt to achieve KO.
Judges in some cases in 70 ies sandbagged Ali a lot until Don had decided that Holmes should be champion. Cos Ali then was ill and aging.

right on, a new style of syntax, i dig it, really groovy man.

 

[SandisLL]

The sandbagged vs Norton and Frazier.


Later Don decided that champion will be Larry.

After Don assumed that Larry is old, he decided that champions will be Gerald and Mike.
Don then had very huge impact on some very large TV companies.