Diamond Stepping?

[Hotora86]

I know that the video looks kinda old and goofy but what about the concept itself?

With diamond stepping the "simultaneous defense and counter" often mentioned in Okinawan Karate manuals suddenly makes perfect sense - it's not blocking and striking at the same TIME but instead it's evading/parrying and countering in the same STEP. Half step dodge / parry + half step strike / throw.

The thing that also strikes me (pun not intended) is that I was taught this kind of stepping in my Shotokan / Fudokan dojo but it was never properly explained or practiced. It was supposed to give us "more balance" during movement - which is true to some extent but I feel like the main point of this diamond (or curved) stepping is moving off the centerline or even BEHIND the opponent, which is a huge advantage.

What do you think? Have you been taught this? How about in other arts than Karate?

 

[ARIZE]

In TKD ITF, it's a basic movement. Very good way to deal with side kick spammers for example. It's also used a lot in self defense scenarios against single haymakers, kinda like the video you posted.

In boxing, I play with it when I'm in southpaw. I step outside/forward his lead leg when he jabs, behind a front hook. If he doesn't follow my movement occupied from my hook, he is in a very bad position and will only be able to try to cover the next combo/flurry. Usually i go with rear straight, front hook body, and rear upper.

In MT, I don't do that kind of fancy dancing. I stay in the middle of the ring and keep kicking until the end of the fight...

 

[dudeguyman]

I know that the video looks kinda old and goofy but what about the concept itself?

With diamond stepping the "simultaneous defense and counter" often mentioned in Okinawan Karate manuals suddenly makes perfect sense - it's not blocking and striking at the same TIME but instead it's evading/parrying and countering in the same STEP. Half step dodge / parry + half step strike / throw.

The thing that also strikes me (pun not intended) is that I was taught this kind of stepping in my Shotokan / Fudokan class but it was never properly explained or practiced. It was supposed to give us "more balance" during movement - which is true to some extent but I feel like the main point of this diamond (or curved) stepping is moving off the centerline or even BEHIND the opponent, which is a huge advantage.

What do you think? Have you been taught this? How about in other arts than Karate?

This might help with my osoto gari.

 

[Hotora86]

In TKD ITF, it's a basic movement. Very good way to deal with side kick spammers for example. It's also used a lot in self defense scenarios against single haymakers, kinda like the video you posted.

In boxing, I play with it when I'm in southpaw. I step outside/forward his lead leg when he jabs, behind a front hook. If he doesn't follow my movement occupied from my hook, he is in a very bad position and will only be able to try to cover the next combo/flurry. Usually i go with rear straight, front hook body, and rear upper.

In MT, I don't do that kind of fancy dancing. I stay in the middle of the ring and keep kicking until the end of the fight...

So, in TKD ITF were you taught to use it as shown in the video? At what belt level?

Also, is fighting smart penalized in MT?

 

[ARIZE]

Also, is fighting smart penalized in MT?

Well yeah... Why would you want to fight smart? And if you're smart in the first place, why would you be in MT? Go play some chess or be a doctor or build a rocket or something...

So, in TKD ITF were you taught to use it as shown in the video? At what belt level?

The movement and the logic behind it, is taught for sparring/matches from the beginning (white belts), but for the one steps (self defense) it's from blue belt and above, meaning 3 years into it. (at least at my place).
A basic one for example is: Step forward at about a 45 degree angle with your right foot and block the punch with an inside-out forearm block with your left hand. At the same time throw a punch with your right hand to the attacker’s face.

For lots of them, i don't find them realistic, but they help you with your timing, good movement and balance. And some of them are, in my opinion, functional. Some have blocks and strikes, some have blocks and counters, but also locks, sweeps etc... And the strikes are damage oriented, like elbows, kicks to the groin, throat strikes, etc.
For later belts, black and above, you have 2- steps, 3- steps, knife defense etc...

There are tons of them, but unless you're going to be a trainer, you don't need to know them all. You just choose some you like and train them.

As you said, they may seem goofy when demonstrated, because they emphasis on the proper technique, and they pause between strikes . Also the attacker does a "classic TMA" type of strike.

 

[CFGroup]

The functional version of that is in Stephen Thompson's fights he sidesteps on his 45 and counters I think with a straight right.

Hotora86 I think you posted a clip of a young Asian kid fighting Muay Thai who used that concept a bunch of times in it. I'll try to find it in my bookmarks.

When those movement principles are done for real you don't take that long exaggerated step and leave your back foot like in the video, you spring off the back foot and bring it back under your center of balance.

This is what I use to do in TKD for 45 degree angle switch step counter. I learned to feel how committed the opponent was to moving forward to adjust my angle. If his attack was a rear leg hook or back the 45 into him would score right into his ribs.

 

[Hotora86]

Why would you want to fight smart? And if you're smart in the first place, why would you be in MT?

Sig-worthy quote.
Thanks for the further input.

 

[Hotora86]

This might help with my osoto gari.

Could be great vs someone who doesn't enter at an angle. Or someone bad at angles in general. So basically all newbies.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Alex Palma did a few hours on this and i really liked his application. Seeing how he and Tiffany van soust combined this idea with a range management system was pretty cool

 

[shincheckin]

Alex Palma did a few hours on this and i really liked his application. Seeing how he and Tiffany van soust combined this idea with a range management system was pretty cool

have you trained with Alex?

 

[shincheckin]

I know that the video looks kinda old and goofy but what about the concept itself?

With diamond stepping the "simultaneous defense and counter" often mentioned in Okinawan Karate manuals suddenly makes perfect sense - it's not blocking and striking at the same TIME but instead it's evading/parrying and countering in the same STEP. Half step dodge / parry + half step strike / throw.

The thing that also strikes me (pun not intended) is that I was taught this kind of stepping in my Shotokan / Fudokan dojo but it was never properly explained or practiced. It was supposed to give us "more balance" during movement - which is true to some extent but I feel like the main point of this diamond (or curved) stepping is moving off the centerline or even BEHIND the opponent, which is a huge advantage.

What do you think? Have you been taught this? How about in other arts than Karate?

This is something that has always interested me, i have watched plenty of videos on it, however it was from Kali Triangle Footwork videos instead. I think being able to move like this would be a very good thing. Its advanced footwork and angles outside of the normal type of boxing style footwork that is taught everywhere. The TKD video is good as well. Studying TKD more, you can see that they have amazing footwork and angles. Whats being done in that TKD vid is something I have been meaning to practice as well.

Angles work, next time (orthodox vs orthodox) a guy throws a switch kick to your body, throw a left hook and side step to the left at the same time.

 

[shincheckin]

i had saved this video a long time ago meaning to practice this, never got around to it, but am still meaning too!

 

[j123]

In MT, I don't do that kind of fancy dancing. I stay in the middle of the ring and keep kicking until the end of the fight...

Let me bang 101

 

[CFGroup]

i had saved this video a long time ago meaning to practice this, never got around to it, but am still meaning too!

Shit with this and that shoulder exercise vid....My workout just got 20 min longer...
With that static iso Tai Chi set those shoulder drills complement that core strength. I put your drill after 120 knuckle pushups(sets of 22 slow between ab work) and worked up to 10 reps per movement since you posted that. Defiantly work to to burn and form failure with just 10 so far.

this clip has some cool variations I could see working up to functional speed. I would tend to leave out many of the transition steps to abbreviate the physical movements to increase speed. Kinda like that switch kick clip where the angle is achieved switching your hips in mid air. Working around that triangle switching your hips in air would increase mobility....Oh that just reminded me someone posted a TKD movement drill clip a few weeks ago I was going to save. It's much more modern than the stuff from the old school Koreans. A bunch of drills with all the modern rope ladders and hurdles that those lineage teachers never used....Gonna find it....

 

[Hotora86]

Here's Stephen Thompson using Diamond Stepping (sort of) vs current Bellator champ Rory MacDonald.

 

[Hotora86]

I know that the video looks kinda old and goofy but what about the concept itself?

With diamond stepping the "simultaneous defense and counter" often mentioned in Okinawan Karate manuals suddenly makes perfect sense - it's not blocking and striking at the same TIME but instead it's evading/parrying and countering in the same STEP. Half step dodge / parry + half step strike / throw.

The thing that also strikes me (pun not intended) is that I was taught this kind of stepping in my Shotokan / Fudokan dojo but it was never properly explained or practiced. It was supposed to give us "more balance" during movement - which is true to some extent but I feel like the main point of this diamond (or curved) stepping is moving off the centerline or even BEHIND the opponent, which is a huge advantage.

What do you think? Have you been taught this? How about in other arts than Karate?

Really interested in what @BudoNoah has to say about this.

On a sidenote (rant incoming), the fact that I was taught the stepping technique but not its proper use is what pisses me off in Karate and most TMAs in general.

It goes like this. You are taught basic moves. You are taught forms. You repeat them for years and years, you get perfect at them. Great, well done you. But unless you do your own research or go to special seminars you never get to know the PROPER USE of all those "blocks" (which they are not!) and strike combos (which they are not!). Not until you're a black belt at least. Only then you MAY be lucky enough to find out, for example, after 6 years of blocking kicks with Gedan Barai, that Gedan Barai IS NOT A BLOCK!!! (really gotta make a separate thread on that) Well gee, no wonder I have a history of wrist injuries, I was blocking full-power kicks with my feeble hand like a total moron - BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I WAS TAUGHT TO DO! Even worse, the "low block" reaction to kicks has been permanently engraved into my brain and I can't stop doing it, even though I now know it's wrong!

The "do now, understand later" ("wax on, wax off") way of teaching is rather typical for Eastern arts in general, not just martial arts. And I'm afraid that this mentality lies at the root of the problem. It is the reason why, after generations of incomplete explanations, lack of details and generally bad teaching, Karate now looks like bunny-hopping fist fencing (looking at you, WKF) or toughman belly-punching (sorry, Kyokushin) instead of the original eclectic MIXED martial art that prepared you for all areas of combat. Shame on all the people who allowed this to happen.

/rant

 

[ARIZE]

See what you get when you try to be smart and understand things?... You get doubts. Doubts leads to hesitation. Hesitation leads to fear of engagement. And fear of engagement leads to defeat.
Be stupid my friend, then you shall know true victory.

I kinda agree on what you say, but i think it's also a big part on the trainer and the student, and not just the art.
Coming from MT, every technique I learned and trained had a direct application in sparring. I knew how and why. When i started cross-training ITF, I was put in front of 100s of techniques. Since most of them were completely different from MT, I kept asking my teacher why that? why not this one? why not that way. The guy is a walking encyclopedia, so he could answer anything.
If I was not curious, or if he dint know his stuff, I would have learned a bunch of stuff the wrong way, or for the wrong application.
But that's not the fault of the TMA...

I got a lot of problems with TMA, but doing stuffs without knowing why, I think its more of an individual problem.

I kept interrupting the katas because every move was completely strange to me. I realize than even the black belts din't know why they do lots of moves. But the teacher knew. I may not agree with how realistic some moves are, but I least i know what they are for. But there are people doing 10+ years those katas, and don't have a clue for lots of those moves...

 

[CFGroup]

Really interested in what @BudoNoah has to say about this.

On a sidenote (rant incoming), the fact that I was taught the stepping technique but not its proper use is what pisses me off in Karate and most TMAs in general.

It goes like this. You are taught basic moves. You are taught forms. You repeat them for years and years, you get perfect at them. Great, well done you. But unless you do your own research or go to special seminars you never get to know the PROPER USE of all those "blocks" (which they are not!) and strike combos (which they are not!). Not until you're a black belt at least. Only then you MAY be lucky enough to find out, for example, after 6 years of blocking kicks with Gedan Barai, that Gedan Barai IS NOT A BLOCK!!! (really gotta make a separate thread on that) Well gee, no wonder I have a history of wrist injuries, I was blocking full-power kicks with my feeble hand like a total moron - BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I WAS TAUGHT TO DO! Even worse, the "low block" reaction to kicks has been permanently engraved into my brain and I can't stop doing it, even though I now know it's wrong!

The "do now, understand later" ("wax on, wax off") way of teaching is rather typical for Eastern arts in general, not just martial arts. And I'm afraid that this mentality lies at the root of the problem. It is the reason why, after generations of incomplete explanations, lack of details and generally bad teaching, Karate now looks like bunny-hopping fist fencing (looking at you, WKF) or toughman belly-punching (sorry, Kyokushin) instead of the original eclectic MIXED martial art that prepared you for all areas of combat. Shame on all the people who allowed this to happen.

/rant

Jeez man, bummed you got the mall MA base for your training.

How I've been told from David the USMC guy I trained with, stationed in Okinawa is back during reconstruction in the 50's guys serving one year deployments would train, and come back stateside with just the beginner basics and try to cobble together a coherent version of the total ass kicking's they'd suffered back in Japan. Japanese instructors would "award" a BB knowing that they had not given the true art to the "Gaijin". If you research closely you'll see that most of the famous American Karate guys only had a year or so of formal training but were good athletes and developed their "art" from broken systems. David is fortunate enough to have excelled at language and re deployed as a translator liaison for years so he could spend the 6 plus years it takes to absorb GoJu and a large part of Okinawan Kempo.

That's why I always ask about lineage. If you can't directly trace it back to it's roots then most likely it's a cobbled together system that doesn't represent the full art. The Northeast has great Judo, TKD and other arts due to the draw of university faculty, students and culture from other nations. So I stumbled on direct lineage training by dumb geographical luck.

 

[shincheckin]

Shit with this and that shoulder exercise vid....My workout just got 20 min longer...
With that static iso Tai Chi set those shoulder drills complement that core strength. I put your drill after 120 knuckle pushups(sets of 22 slow between ab work) and worked up to 10 reps per movement since you posted that. Defiantly work to to burn and form failure with just 10 so far.

this clip has some cool variations I could see working up to functional speed. I would tend to leave out many of the transition steps to abbreviate the physical movements to increase speed. Kinda like that switch kick clip where the angle is achieved switching your hips in mid air. Working around that triangle switching your hips in air would increase mobility....Oh that just reminded me someone posted a TKD movement drill clip a few weeks ago I was going to save. It's much more modern than the stuff from the old school Koreans. A bunch of drills with all the modern rope ladders and hurdles that those lineage teachers never used....Gonna find it....

im glad you liked it dude, that shoulder workout really is no joke. I eventually did build up to being able to complete it without stopping, but if you dont stay active youll loose it. Sometimes I would do 113 burpees after that shoulder workout.

 

[Hotora86]

I realize than even the black belts din't know why they do lots of moves. But the teacher knew. I may not agree with how realistic some moves are, but I least i know what they are for. But there are people doing 10+ years those katas, and don't have a clue for lots of those moves...

That's true and it really grinds my gears. I was interested in the practical application as a whitebelt. Started lurking the web for answers at yellow. Bought my first book at orange. Cross-trained other styles and arts at green... and so on. Still passionately learning 12 years later. Meanwhile the brown and black belts at my place seem content with just going through the motions... So sad.

See what you get when you try to be smart and understand things?... You get doubts. Doubts leads to hesitation. Hesitation leads to fear of engagement. And fear of engagement leads to defeat.
Be stupid my friend, then you shall know true victory.

You are a master of sig-worthy quotes. Sadly, this is true if you re-phrase it a bit. Simple techniques practiced with full force are superior to complex ones practiced without it. I know it's been called the "Kano paradox" based on anecdotal evidence of Kodokan vs Japanese Jujitsu matches but still, the point is true. I'd easily bet on a MT noob vs a Karate noob in a fight. This may change after 10+ years of training (if even just for the reason of accumulated damage the MT guy has taken) but in the short term full-contact combat sports rule supreme over TMAs. And not everybody has the dedication to invest 10+ years of his life into any art.