Development of kickboxing under influence of big orgs

[Hagelslag2]

So, this is a development I've seen in the Netherlands and I'm wondering if others here have seen the same occur where they're from.

First, a little explanation of the Dutch system, then and now. The old Dutch kickboxing fight scene consisted of 4 classes. The Beginner class was 2x2 or 3x1.5 minutes and the C class was 3x2 minutes. Both classes used modified Muay Thai rules, with clinching allowed, but no knees to the head. The B class, the semi pros, used 5x2 minutes and knees to the head were allowed. The A-class, the pros, basically used MT rules with or without elbows, depending on the opponent and his wishes.

When K-1 got really big in the late '90's, early '00's, this all changed. It all started when single matches in the A-class started to be contested under K1 rules, 3x3 minutes. Then people figured that 3x3 is almost the same as 5x2, so B-class matches under K-1 rules started to occur. Nowadays, even the Beginner and C-class matches are sometimes held under K-1 rules, but because they were never allowed to knee to the head anyway, this basically just means no clinching allowed. Because of this change Dutch trainers train less clinching than they already did in earlier years. There are a couple of things that bother me about this.

1) Trainers completely neglect one very specific figting distance. An often-heard complaint, especially in the Netherlands, is that clinching disrupts the flow of the fight. Of course it does, because Dutch fighters have no idea what to do in the clinch. If you completely neglect one prime distance, how are you ever develop any fluidity in your attacks?

2) Dutch fighters have really turned into spambots and have no idea of ring generalship. A good example of this was the match between Chahid and Sudsakorn. Chahid is, in my opinion, the epitome of a Dutch-style spambot and he got completely dismantled by Sud.

3) Dutch fighters physically are not capable of fighting 5 rounds anymore. Kiria vs Ristie was not a fluke. Kiria comes from a Kyokushin background, has supreme conditioning and a learned ability to deal with damage throughout a fight or tourney. Ristie is, just like Chahid, a newer generation Dutch kickboxer, who has barely ever fought 5 rounds.

Dutch kickboxers losing to people like Kyshenko (pre-Mike's Gym) and Levin is something some people in the Netherlands have been warning about for years. Countries like Ukraine and Russia has a pretty big amateur Muay Thai scene and just deliver more complete fighters than the Netherlands does or can do at the moment. These guys were taught a much more complete game from the beginning, have much better ring generalship because of it and have much less problems adapting to a rule set like K-1's or Glory's than the Dutch would have the other way around.

Have the fight scenes in other countries undergone a similar change and what are your thoughts about it?

 

[Hagelslag2]

Also, I've used kickboxing as a umbrella term here, but you probably other gathered that.

 

[frystyle]

I agree with your post but I gotta say it is not like this everywhere. My trainer doesn't like k-1 style very much and spends a lot of time on clinch training. He wants us to be complete fighters in every aspect of the game so it is not about the typical left right left hook lowkick dutch style combo stuff. I agree on the spambot thingy. A lot of fighters are like conditioned machines that don't think but just spam combos they learned in training. At least at the lower levels it is like this.

 

[Hagelslag2]

I agree with your post but I gotta say it is not like this everywhere. My trainer doesn't like k-1 style very much and spends a lot of time on clinch training. He wants us to be complete fighters in every aspect of the game so it is not about the typical left right left hook lowkick dutch style combo stuff. I agree on the spambot thingy. A lot of fighters are like conditioned machines that don't think but just spam combos they learned in training. At least at the lower levels it is like this.

I of course generalized. There are some gyms that still teach the complete package, but for every 1 that does there are 9 that went the K-1 way. A trainer that I regard highly is Jim Rijkschroeff of Keumgang in The Hague. He still teaches a very complete style.

 

[frystyle]

That's true. The Hague is too far away for me to check out .

I hope you get some other responses to your post, I am curious as well.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I remember first reading the spambot analogy a few years ago about fighters in K1. Now it resurfaces again. Nice. I'd point the blame to the scoring criteria too. I remember aggression being rather high on the criteria. And being a spambot play right into it. Kind of like amateur boxing in a way before the reform: the more you throw, the busier you look, the more chance you win the round.

 

[Brocktirement**]

I of course generalized. There are some gyms that still teach the complete package, but for every 1 that does there are 9 that went the K-1 way. A trainer that I regard highly is Jim Rijkschroeff of Keumgang in The Hague. He still teaches a very complete style.

and how many great fighters has Keumgang brought up? el hamchaoui is his most well known fighter. Keumgang gets some praise because jim's an mt guy but if you have ever seen some of his fighters, it's really not that special

they fight smart, but they're certainly not better than other gyms out there

 

[Brocktirement**]

I do agree that promoters should promote fights 5x3 with clinching allowed and dutch/european judging criteria....no MT nonsense where 1 wepaon scores more than the other.......damage/impact should be scored

3x3 minutes should be only allowed in a tournament format

 

[Hagelslag2]

and how many great fighters has Keumgang brought up? el hamchaoui is his most well known fighter. Keumgang gets some praise because jim's an mt guy but if you have ever seen some of his fighters, it's really not that special

they fight smart, but they're certainly not better than other gyms out there

True, but I think it also has something to do with the fact that for Jim and his fighters it's a very part-time thing. It's just his outlook on fighting and the quite cerebral style that they use that I like. They haven't produced a whole slew of great fighters, but Delon Carrilho and El Hamchaoui were/are really good.

 

[Hagelslag2]

I do agree that promoters should promote fights 5x3 with clinching allowed and dutch/european judging criteria....no MT nonsense where 1 wepaon scores more than the other.......damage/impact should be scored

3x3 minutes should be only allowed in a tournament format

Yup, I do think the scoring criteria are better than the Thai criteria, but the elimination of the clinch and those short fights really annoy me. If you talk to guys like Kaman, Harinck or Hippolyte they'll all tell you the old system is their preference.

 

[Brocktirement**]

Yup, I do think the scoring criteria are better than the Thai criteria, but the elimination of the clinch and those short fights really annoy me. If you talk to guys like Kaman, Harinck or Hippolyte they'll all tell you the old system is their preference.

well I've fought in the 'old' system and it was basically muay thai without elbows to the head and the clinch got stopped quicker by the ref if there were signs of inactivity

but that was before there was all that kickboxing on tv......we live in a different era, 3 rounds for something that's televised is understandable

but now even the small events have 3 round fights in a-class or b-class and that's just wrong.......there's no tv time slot or attention span of the viewers.......amateurs or non-televised events should always fight 5 rounds, wether it's 5x2 in b-class or 5x3 in a-class

 

[Hagelslag2]

well I've fought in the 'old' system and it was basically muay thai without elbows to the head and the clinch got stopped quicker by the ref if there were signs of inactivity

but that was before there was all that kickboxing on tv......we live in a different era, 3 rounds for something that's televised is understandable

but now even the small events have 3 round fights in a-class or b-class and that's just wrong.......there's no tv time slot or attention span of the viewers.......amateurs or non-televised events should always fight 5 rounds, wether it's 5x2 in b-class or 5x3 in a-class

I always told the promoter I wasn't going to fight 3-rounders under K-1 rules if it wasn't in a tournament. I never had an opponent or promoter object to this. Even when organizing my own (small) events I never had anyone object to this. It really is a tv thing.