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The truth is that they were quite 'selective'... Hickson took on Rei Zulu as a [WW] rookie (Zulu was a LHW)... But then clearly ducked Marco Huas...
Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 9] - BJJ during the Vale Tudo Era...
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Interesting thread.
This may be true, but Royce (and the Gracies) won when it mattered.
Eugenio didn't do too well in MMA. He wouldn't have done what Royce did at UFC 1. Maybe if it happened in the 80's. Ruas was the best Luta Livre based MMA fighter from the early days of UFC, and he lost to Oleg, who Renzo KO'd. BJJ/The Gracies had the best fighters at the time.
Kimura and some others beat Gracie members in the early days, but by the early 1990's the Gracies had the world out-smarted when it came to fighting. One family, out-smarted the entire world, It's actually pretty amazing. There weren't any Judo or Luta Livre guys that could've won UFC 1, that I know of at least.
Later Rizzo (under Ruas' tutelage) became better than any Gracie... but he also had the help of every other athlete in the UFC, who were all trying to figure out how to stop BJJ, or grappling all together.
Luta Livre is the more complete system, since it incorporates kickboxing. it's the precursor to MMA really. But it's basically kickboxing/street fighting with BJJ defense. They could only beat the Gracies after learning their moves, like the other UFC competitors. Therefore GJJ was the best style of it's day.
I never thought about that before... With the right selection of (BJJ and Luta Livre) fighters for UFC 1, the history of MMA could've unfolded much differently. Royce's legendary performance (beating 3 bigger men in one night) is part of what made the event a success. Even if he would've won he wouldn't have looked nearly as good against Luta Livre guys.
This may be true, but Royce (and the Gracies) won when it mattered.
Eugenio didn't do too well in MMA. He wouldn't have done what Royce did at UFC 1. Maybe if it happened in the 80's. Ruas was the best Luta Livre based MMA fighter from the early days of UFC, and he lost to Oleg, who Renzo KO'd. BJJ/The Gracies had the best fighters at the time.
Kimura and some others beat Gracie members in the early days, but by the early 1990's the Gracies had the world out-smarted when it came to fighting. One family, out-smarted the entire world, It's actually pretty amazing. There weren't any Judo or Luta Livre guys that could've won UFC 1, that I know of at least.
Later Rizzo (under Ruas' tutelage) became better than any Gracie... but he also had the help of every other athlete in the UFC, who were all trying to figure out how to stop BJJ, or grappling all together.
Luta Livre is the more complete system, since it incorporates kickboxing. it's the precursor to MMA really. But it's basically kickboxing/street fighting with BJJ defense. They could only beat the Gracies after learning their moves, like the other UFC competitors. Therefore GJJ was the best style of it's day.
I never thought about that before... With the right selection of (BJJ and Luta Livre) fighters for UFC 1, the history of MMA could've unfolded much differently. Royce's legendary performance (beating 3 bigger men in one night) is part of what made the event a success. Even if he would've won he wouldn't have looked nearly as good against Luta Livre guys.
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As stated in the OP, there were many Challenges back in the days, from the 1930s to the 1960s in a 1st 'era'...
As you can see, GJJ vs Luta Livre or GJJ vs JJJ or Catch Wrasslin´ (in George´s fights) were not that great for the family.
It´s indeed quite fascinating, since there was a significant qualitative shift from the 'traditional' Luta Livre Generation (Ivan Gomes, Euclides Pereira etc...) who was more into 'pure' grapplin´, to the 'modern' one (which had more emphasis on MT first, because of the influence of fighters like Flavio Molina for instance.. they then decided to focus on the ground game...)
The 1950s-70s Generation was either from the Northeast of Brazil (Ivan Gomes, Euclydes Pereira...), or from the South (Master Tatu) while the 1980s Generation was mostly from Rio de Janeiro jus´like them Gracies (moved to Rio a long time ago)..
No real contact between the 2 Generations, so the Modern one learnt with guys like Roberto Leitao or Brunocilla:
during the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenge (1984), the Luta Livre team had to hire Brunocilla as a coach to enhance their ground game (they were all very raw, Marco Huas was the best of the 4, Tadeu could only be considered a blue belt for instance)
In time, Tadeu was dominatin´Henzo when Lights went out... while Huas had a very close fight vs Pinduka, one of Carlson´s toughest BB (Huas was aprox. 175 lbs, according to him [tough to assess, watchin´the fight, I would say he was a MW though...] while Pinduka was probably a LHW]... Both claimed victory...
Huas rematched Oleg in Brazil and dominated him, since the 1st fight was controversial:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-oleg-forgot-about-the-special-rule.3853539/
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Interesting. I wasn't even aware of this first wave of Luta Livre fighters.
Since Luta Livre translates to free-fighting, and Vale Tudo to "anything goes", and Ruas, Rizzo, and Fontes Braga were primarily strikers I always thought Vale Tudo was striking based...
I checked the wiki for Luta Livre. I had no idea it was that old and evolved from catch-wrestling and Judo, just like BJJ did.
Thanks. Keep the info coming. Pre UFC 1 info is very hard to come by.
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Actually, it was a misunderstanding when the 1st Brazilian NHB fighters landed in the States:
Vale Tudo is not a discipline or a TMA, it´s a Fight Configuration, Vale Tudo = NHB
Luta Livre~Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ (still the 1980s generation incorporated MT to its skill set, but still had a limited ground game at that time> talkin´about the team chosen to fight during the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenge...)
Huas started trainin´ Judo,Capoeira, TKD..then took on boxing (became a regional champ), then took on Luta Livre, and then BJJ ('hidden' lessons).
His Luta Livre coach was the hespected Roberto Leitao:
Now, Ebenezer Braga started as a striker indeed (MT), but then took on Luta Livre:
But globally, the misunderstanding was still real: Cross-training became the norm, and people no longer knew how to distinguish the styles...
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Yeah, I'm watching Rizin and typed Vale Tudo instead of Luta Livre on that last post. Vale Tudo = Free Fighting = NHB. I've seen a lot of the old IVC and WVT championship events.
I never knew Macaco was Luta Livre, and I've been a fan of his for a long time. Good example of blurring styles.
I'm not so sure it's fair to count Ruas as a Luta Livre fighter though, considering his background. If Ruas was to beat Rickson he would've had to use his boxing and Judo primarily.
Politics aside, considering that GJJ was taught to a much smaller pool of people (as it was a guarded secret) and it was taught primarily to the rich, the Gracies shouldn't have been able to compete with the other gyms in Brazil, let alone beat them. Rickson is pretty athletic, but Royler and Royce aren't really. The Gracies were all smaller and less athletic compared then Zulu, Tadeu and Ruas too. Rickson and Ruas were somewhat close I guess, but Marcos was definitely stronger than Rickson.
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Macaco is actually BJJ, but they mixed it up...
Huas was indeed a lone wolf, he was considered a Luta Livre by them Gracies, but he was actually cross-trainin´since the very beginnin´..
Then, he started to learn BJJ from Joe Moreira, but that sparked some controversy, the rivalry was still strong at that time....
If you listen or read [between the lines] Hickson´s interviews, Huas was the lone 'Luta Livre' he would hespect back in the days, never really dishespected/challenged him...
Both Huas & Hickson were WW in their rookie fights (aprox. 176 lbs, evem though Huas did look a lil heavier imo, watchin´ the fight...) vs Rei Zulu and Pinduka...
But Huas became a LHW (aprox. 210lbs) in the States, while Hickson was still a MW in Japan...
Still, Rei Zulu was a LHW too, much stronger than Hickson... And it was pretty competitive...
Roberto Leitao, Huas´ Luta Livre coach, always said that it was the fight to make: Hickson would have had the advantage on the ground, but Huas was possibly stronger... And Huas was obviously much better on the feet...
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I'm gonna read this later and watch the vids, looks good
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Marco was always rock hard on the body insane kind of genetics. In some old vids you see him jogging together with Flavio Molina and he have almost the same body type of a sprinter, very athletic. When he went to the USA he grew almost 10 kg. With his heaviest weight at 105 kilo against Taktorov 2. For the people who will say Renzo beat Oleg easier then Ruas did then keep this in mind that Ruas battered him for 30 minutes on the feet. That Olegs whole face was stitch up and 10 days later he fought against Renzo. He was pissing blood from that fight with Ruas so you can gues the Oleg that showed up to fight Renzo was definitely not healed in 10 days let allone be fit enough to fight!
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What was always strange was the fact that the fight against Pinduka was a draw but after that fight nobody from the Gracie camp stood up to challenge Ruas to show that BJJ was superior. Pinduka was the biggest guy from Carlson Gracie team 94 kilo and Ruas was 78 kilo. The Gracies always told when two man fight and the time expired that the lighter man wins. They did with Royce Gracie vs Ken Shamrock 2 that Royce should have won because he was the lighter man! But there was no such thing when Ruas fought Pinduka!
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American and Russian wrestlers were always able to hang with any Japanese or Brazilian folks. Karl Goch, though Belgian, had many American students--several of which were at the highest level internationally. Believe it or not, but the first half of the 20th century was partially dominated by Indian (dot) wrestlers. Catch as Catch Can itself was highly influenced by the Indian folkstyles.
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The problem is that he bulked up from these 78 kg to 210 lbs, and this had a negative influence on his body too: especially on his knees.
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Pinduka was considered one if not the toughest BJJ black belt then, so this fight put Huas on the map, and he claimed that he was literally ducked.
Them Gracies tried to negociate this 'rule' in the Hoyler vs SAKU G. fight: no judges, and in case of a draw, the lighter man would be the winner, but SAKU G. said no.
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b4 settlin´on Pinduka, Huas was supposed to fight against against Helson, then Henzo, then Fred Bomba 1st.
Now, Rei Zulu... tbh Rei Zulu was already 33 yrs old when he fought against Hickson in 1980, and 37 the 2nd time..
Jus´b4 Hickson, in 1979 Rei Zulu fought against Euclydes Pereira, who would always take pride in sayin´that he beat him a lil b4 Hickson did it, and that that was one of his HL (Rei Zulu was dominatin´the fight but got caught in a guillotine.)
Hickson kept denying in the 1990s that Rei Zulu was not his toughest fight and that he was not about to quit on his stool.
Then,last year, in an interview, he finally acknowledged it.
But, in 1984, Rei Zulu was still a physical freak, he would have easily taken Huas down, even multiple times.
The problem is...his submission game was pretty limited (unless he catches Huas goin´for a TD, Rei Zulu had a deadly standin´guillotine:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli.3828423/
Moreover, Rei Zulu lacked patience, and wasnt really interested in Ground Control, Huas could realistically stand up several times in this fight.
One of Huas´ go-to-move was the heel hook, and it´s doubtful that Rei Zulu was used to defendin´ this submission (hard to assess, tbh).
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Rei Zulu was also a genetic freak of nature, and how he fought Rickson and Sergio Baterelli you could see that he was very akward in his movement, hardly to follow what he gone do in the fight. That being sad i think Ruas had superior stand up to him. If you look closely how Ruas punched Pinduka with combinations it would be a matter of time to hit Rei zulu on the chin, definitely because Rei zulu didn't have any intrest in going to the ground and would keep the fight standing up. About the guillotine from Rei Zulu, Bas Rutten once told the very first submission move he learned was the guillotine choke and when Marco and Bas where training together Ruas attacked him in sparring with a double leg takedown so Bas immediately reacted with a guillotine choke so Ruas picked him up and slams him on the mat like he did on Larry Cureton in UFC 7 so i think he would have counterd the guillotine choke from Rei zulu easily.
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ah..Rei Zulu was a showman, I suspect most of his Vale Tudo fights were carry jobs tbh...
Rei Zulu´s background is Tarraca, a native Brazilian wrasslin´, basically body lock>slam.
Rei Zulu was always clownin´, part of his carry job more or less...
But he always got the clinch and the slam during the fights. He would have easily slammed Huas, but without securin´ the position or mounted legit offense on the ground.
Note: the Hickson fights had very special rules limitin´ his striking, especially in the transitions on the ground...
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@gono btw, is it true that Marco Ruas had a vale tudo fight in 1986 against Marco Selva? There are people claiming there is a videotape of this event and that the fight was a draw. I cannot find any information about this only that Marco Selva fought against Patrick Smith in WVC but that was years later.
