Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 8] - MMA 'Cans', The Unsung Heroes...

[gono btw]

Today :[Russian Vale Tudo & JMMA Scene]

MMA 'Cans' - The Unsung Heroes...

Sadly, some fans seem obsessed with the W/L record, and are quick to dismiss a fighter´s career based solely on that.

Sequences during a fight are much more interesting imo, more than the overall fight itself.
What Im looking forward to is the fighter´s evolution & the slick transitions he might showcase during
the fight.

Assessing a fighter´s career is generally something uneasy, especially when it comes to ol´school
fighters.
It requires some deep research about the fights, the patience to watch them, and the will
to learn about their context.

Historically, someone like Igor has always had a suspicious look from the fans
when it comes to assessing the 1st part of his career, in the Russian NHB circuit...

His opponents are generally dismissed as one-dimensional (even though some had a sambo background)
or literally 'un-trained' (even with a potential extensive army career)

Valery Pliev, for instance, who finished his career with an 'average' 8-6 record... was pretty game in the 1st part of his fight vs Igor:

Spoiler

Another unsung hero: Jung Bu Kyung, who finished his career with a 0-4 record...
What an impressive performance in his rookie fight vs Aoki, almost armbarring him and pulling the upset
(while being clearly undersized):

Spoiler

Finally, Magomed Magomedov, very game in his fight vs Khabib ...
Such an interesting skill set...

Spoiler

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/

Some people around here call a fighter "can" when they dont even know him and his career,
they jus´read his wiki record.

For instance, they like to use this argument to attack a potential ATG, like Spider vs Takase or Chonan [LWs who had to fight @ openweight against much bigger opponents.back in the days... see poor Takase vs Horn...]







The finish over Spider was a slick, very smooth transition from a straight armbar to a triangle choke.
Definitely not something a "can" or a "journeyman" would be able to do.

Guys like Chonan,Takase,Shoji, Kanehara etc... were good,tough fighters.

Not GOATs, not potential champs...

But good fighters nonetheless...


Hespect.

Spoiler: 'Decons' Threads

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-trainin´-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-fights-start-from-standin´-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...tion-of-submission-defence-grapplin´.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-strikin´.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ntroversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-38-re-ass-essin´da-atomic-butt-drop.4084973/

 

[2004 account]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

 

[gono btw]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

Yvel has wins over:

Valentijn Overeem
Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
Semmy Schilt
Kiyoshi Tamura
Gary Goodridge
Carlos Barreto
Cheick Kongo
Pedro Rizzo
Ricco Rodriguez

not bad...

even showcased some surprising evolution through his career... Would you have imagined that he´d be able to pull an armbar vs Valentijn?

@ 4mn40

 

[2004 account]

Yvel has wins over:

Valentijn Overeem
Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
Semmy Schilt
Kiyoshi Tamura
Gary Goodridge
Carlos Barreto
Cheick Kongo
Pedro Rizzo
Ricco Rodriguez

not bad...

even showcased some surprising evolution through his career... Would you have imagined that he´d be able to pull an armbar vs Valentijn?

He is a tricky one , and without having seen his fightfinder or known all that before, it does look more impressive. I guess can status is too harsh and unfair a term for him, he’s more like a choker. Chokes when he fights in the big leagues

 

[My2Cents]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

Lol calling yvel a can. That guy was a monster

 

[2004 account]

Yea I recanted from that, he def is not a can.

 

[Roljo]

spot on !

 

[gono btw]

spot on !

 

[Necrocrawler]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

I wouldn't say Cody can be considered a can. Dude was quite solid during his UFC run. Yeah, he's a weirdo, but at that time, he seemed to still have some focus... I believe Magana was definitely a can though.

Also Josh Sampo and another "Xplode fighting series padded" record dude whose name i don't remember. Also Dufresne.

 

[eseseses681]

I wouldn't say Cody can be considered a can. Dude was quite solid during his UFC run. Yeah, he's a weirdo, but at that time, he seemed to still have some focus... I believe Magana was definitely a can though.

Also Josh Sampo and another "Xplode fighting series padded" record dude whose name i don't remember. Also Dufresne.

Did you call Josh Sampo a can? Sampo was a great fighter. Alexis Vila was a hyper-explosive Olympic bronze medalist (much like Yoel Romero) who was still riding high from he wins over Joe Warren and Marcos Galvao a division heavier than what he was built for, and Sampo submitted him, which even Dantas couldn't do. It's the same thing with Antonio Banuelos; Banuelos was in the high top-10 of BW in 2006 and floated in-and-out of the top-15 for a few years after. He also made it to the finals of the DREAM BW GP-- which made him a top-15 bantamweight-- just a few months before he fought Sampo. Sam Thao, Ryan Benoit (KO'd Sergio Pettis right after) and Czar Sklavos were also very good wins.

Much like a lot of other fighters, though, his style was built around the strength advantage he had from doing a giant weight-cut, which got harder as he aged, hence his last fight being at BW. He was also a good-but-not-spectacular high-school wrestler whose style was built around his passion for Jiu-Jitsu.
This combination means that a fighter with better wrestling (Makovsky, whose wrestling doesn't get the credit it's ever deserved, Vila was a wrestler but his style was Really like a FLW Romero's, so not much grapple-fucking), submissions (Holohan) or who can counter their strength disadvantage with explosiveness (Scoggins) are Really tough fighters to beat.

The full-time-high-school-teacher thing combined with the lack of opportunities FLWs are afforded post-UFC meant he couldn't bounce back like he liked.

 

[TR1]

I don't think it is far to call Akira Shoji a can. Sure, the guy had a skill limit, but he gave hard fights to Vovchanchyn, Mezger, Coleman.....a can would have been utterly smashed.

 

[gono btw]

I don't think it is far to call Akira Shoji a can. Sure, the guy had a skill limit, but he gave hard fights to Vovchanchyn, Mezger, Coleman.....a can would have been utterly smashed.

One of the toughest dudes ever...

 

[TheBrownRanger]

One of my favorite cans that "could have been" was Dennis Olson

Dennis Olson was starting beef with Brennan Ward at the weigh ins, who seemed far beyond his skill level. I found it somewhat hilarious how Jimmy Smith was trying to build up animosity between a former Bellator tournament champion and some dude from CES. Olson also managed to win a round against Daley before being inevitably crushed in the 2nd round.

He gave both Daley and Ward some tough fights. If he had beat one of them, he could have easily been close to a title shot back then. In hindsight, that would have been amazing.

 

[Necrocrawler]

Did you call Josh Sampo a can? Sampo was a great fighter. Alexis Vila was a hyper-explosive Olympic bronze medalist (much like Yoel Romero) who was still riding high from he wins over Joe Warren and Marcos Galvao a division heavier than what he was built for, and Sampo submitted him, which even Dantas couldn't do. It's the same thing with Antonio Banuelos; Banuelos was in the high top-10 of BW in 2006 and floated in-and-out of the top-15 for a few years after. He also made it to the finals of the DREAM BW GP-- which made him a top-15 bantamweight-- just a few months before he fought Sampo. Sam Thao, Ryan Benoit (KO'd Sergio Pettis right after) and Czar Sklavos were also very good wins.

Much like a lot of other fighters, though, his style was built around the strength advantage he had from doing a giant weight-cut, which got harder as he aged, hence his last fight being at BW. He was also a good-but-not-spectacular high-school wrestler whose style was built around his passion for Jiu-Jitsu.
This combination means that a fighter with better wrestling (Makovsky, whose wrestling doesn't get the credit it's ever deserved, Vila was a wrestler but his style was Really like a FLW Romero's, so not much grapple-fucking), submissions (Holohan) or who can counter their strength disadvantage with explosiveness (Scoggins) are Really tough fighters to beat.

The full-time-high-school-teacher thing combined with the lack of opportunities FLWs are afforded post-UFC meant he couldn't bounce back like he liked.

True

Sorry, i confused him with another fellow. Unfortunately, im not finding the dude lol.

 

[manboy<3]

You failed to mention that in the late 80s to late 90s that there were much less MMA fighters around so in fact most "cans" were"Journeyman"..fighters who were tough, skilled and did not pad their records with 20 fights against bums simply because there were less bums at that time and simply because that wasn't the thing to do back then..back then the people that did MMA were a lot more into it on average than today where anyone can go to the gym and try his hand at it

Your argument applies to the 90s (and maybe early 2000's) fight scene but is invalid today IMO..

That being that, there are some regions today, like Russia, where the AVERAGE can is closer to a journeyman but on the whole, The records of most MMA fighters of the 2010's are indeed built on cans

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

Great OP. Well said.

 

[gono btw]

Great OP. Well said.

 

[gono btw]

You failed to mention that in the late 80s to late 90s that there were much less MMA fighters around so in fact most "cans" were"Journeyman"..fighters who were tough, skilled and did not pad their records with 20 fights against bums simply because there were less bums at that time and simply because that wasn't the thing to do back then..back then the people that did MMA were a lot more into it on average than today where anyone can go to the gym and try his hand at it

Your argument applies to the 90s (and maybe early 2000's) fight scene but is invalid today IMO..

That being that, there are some regions today, like Russia, where the AVERAGE can is closer to a journeyman but on the whole, The records of most MMA fighters of the 2010's are indeed built on cans

Back then was a completely different Fight Configuration, was @ OW.

@ OW, even an ATG can find himself in a precarious situation, and be considered a potential 'can':

 

[manboy<3]

Back then was a completely different Fight Configuration, was @ OW.

@ OW, even an ATG can find himself in a precarious situation, and can be considered a potential "can":

View attachment 483807 View attachment 483809

Yeah I don't disagree

Different fight configuration and a pool of fighters who were higher skilled on AVERAGE lead to a lot of good fighters having unimpressive records back in the 90s/early 2000s

Should also be noted that in the past there was not just one configuration but multiple: NHB, PANCRASE, RINGS, UNIFIED, PRIDE rules etc

For example if you fought in RINGS it was almost certain that your opponent was legit skilled in ground fighting..so every fight in rings was with a skilled opponent but there were fighters there with awful records

Likewise if you fought in Vale Tudo you could get headbutted or low blowed or break your hand if you were too aggressive so again..lots of fighters with unimpressive records in Value Tudo but the danger level of fighting those guys was off the charts compared to fighting in the UFC with all it's safety precautions

 

[gono btw]

Yeah I don't disagree

Different fight configuration and a pool of fighters who were higher skilled on AVERAGE lead to a lot of good fighters having unimpressive records back in the 90s/early 2000s

Should also be noted that in the past there was not just one configuration but multiple: NHB, PANCRASE, RINGS, UNIFIED, PRIDE rules etc

For example if you fought in RINGS it was almost certain that your opponent was legit skilled in ground fighting..so every fight in rings was with a skilled opponent but there were fighters there with awful records

Likewise if you fought in Vale Tudo you could get headbutted or low blowed or break your hand if you were too aggressive so again..lots of fighters with unimpressive records in Value Tudo but the danger level of fighting those guys was off the charts compared to fighting in the UFC with all it's safety precautions

Those with weak records (original strikers like Tiger White for instance.. 17 L in Pancrase), was coz they were still learnin´ the ground game .