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Warning: TLDR
Today: [Asian MMA Scene]
MYTH > Nog vs Ricco was a hobbery... or even a controversial decision...
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
The 10 OGs are gone, who knows when they´ll be back...
Anyway, back to the 'routine'...
Problematic:
Emblematic fight, but... Controversial decision: some fans tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one (reminder: Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...)
One of the most controversial decisions ever indeed, jus´like that other one:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s potentially a Ricco win (wrestling-heavy gameplan in that fight, limited striking, even on the ground due to Nog´s grip & Ricco´s reluctancy at posturin´up, lack of submission thread), since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.
But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Nog win is indeed a no-brainer:
> crisper strikin´on the feet
> legit & diversified submission threats on the ground
The thing is... Pride´s officials would patiently explains that Scorin´system b4 each event:
...but...was Ricco the type of guy who would pay attention?...
Da Wizard Matt Hume, who indeed contributed to the creation of this Scorin´System (& who was one of the 3 judges involved in that decision), took time to explain that [somehow] controversial decision:
But... if you dont link the [somehow theorical] explanations to the technical sequences, the controversy still prevails...
Let´s try to deconstruct that Decision:
HUME: "Let’s take a look at the recent match between Nogueira and Rodriguez to better understand the criteria":
1. Effort to finish by KO or submission:
"Nogueira wins by a large margin due to his multiple submission attempts and active attack.
Based on this, there is no reason to consider any further criteria as they are in descending order, however, for educational purposes we will continue."
> The margin is indeed significant: whether on the feet or on the ground, Nog constantly looked to improve his position (even when Ricco was on top), while Ricco had a pretty conservative gameplan, a wrestlin´-heavy one.
Meanwhile, Ricco hardly even postured up...
...or tried to pass guard (only once)...
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
2. Damage:
"No damage from striking by either party.
Possible damage from deep Kimura in round 3 by Nogueira, however, no award given to either."
3. Standing combinations and ground control:
"Neither fighter showed superiority in standing skill. "
> Here, I kindah disagree... The way I see it, Nog had a crisper strikin´on the feet, better combos, forcin´Ricco to retreat & look for the TD.
"Nogueira dominated ground control as he constantly went for submission and gave away neutral position for inferior position, yet he was able to move back to neutral position with relative ease each time."
> Interestin´ "ideology" here, for sure...
As I explained in the previous Decons, people tend do misunderstand distinct Scorin´Systems:
"Nogueira also had 1 forced reversal."
Technically, Ricco had that UFC 'Ground Control', the 'primitive' one:
Round 1 = 7mn20s
Round 2 = 3mn
Round 3 = 4mn25s
In UFC, it´s a clear Ricco win, right?
"Rodriguez had 1 reversal while Nogueira was passing guard. "
> Unclear, Nog was actually goin´for a choke and gave up the top position.
"Forced reversals are more difficult to achieve and more valuable for ground control.
Rodriguez was warned many times throughout the match to improve position but chose to stay in neutral guard without damaging strikes or attempts to pass to dominant position."
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
4. Takedown and defense:
"Nogueira scored 1 clean takedown and defended 2 times.
Ricco scored 3 Takedowns.
> Ricco wins this criteria."
5. Aggressiveness:
"Nogueira wins by a large margin due to his many attempts at submission and his forward progression while striking.
The referee warned Ricco many times in this area, but did not award a yellow card penalty."
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
6. Weight difference:
"N/A. Ricco had a sizeable weight advantage [119 kg vs 106 kg] but was not more than 15 kilos."
+ Penalties:
No penalties were given although Ricco had many warnings to improve position.
CONCLUSION:
> Not a hobbery (ridiculous conspiracy 'theories' after the fight [ fueled by Ricco obviously], by the way... 'UFC vs Pride') ...
...and not even a controversial decision:
Ricco had nothin´in this fight, realistically.
> Pride had a more complex Scorin´System.
Today: [Asian MMA Scene]
MYTH > Nog vs Ricco was a hobbery... or even a controversial decision...
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
+
https://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
+
https://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157
The 10 OGs are gone, who knows when they´ll be back...
Anyway, back to the 'routine'...
Problematic:
Emblematic fight, but... Controversial decision: some fans tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one (reminder: Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...)
One of the most controversial decisions ever indeed, jus´like that other one:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s potentially a Ricco win (wrestling-heavy gameplan in that fight, limited striking, even on the ground due to Nog´s grip & Ricco´s reluctancy at posturin´up, lack of submission thread), since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.
But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Nog win is indeed a no-brainer:
> crisper strikin´on the feet
> legit & diversified submission threats on the ground
The thing is... Pride´s officials would patiently explains that Scorin´system b4 each event:
@19mn30s:
...but...was Ricco the type of guy who would pay attention?...
Da Wizard Matt Hume, who indeed contributed to the creation of this Scorin´System (& who was one of the 3 judges involved in that decision), took time to explain that [somehow] controversial decision:
But... if you dont link the [somehow theorical] explanations to the technical sequences, the controversy still prevails...
Let´s try to deconstruct that Decision:
HUME: "Let’s take a look at the recent match between Nogueira and Rodriguez to better understand the criteria":
1. Effort to finish by KO or submission:
"Nogueira wins by a large margin due to his multiple submission attempts and active attack.
Based on this, there is no reason to consider any further criteria as they are in descending order, however, for educational purposes we will continue."
> The margin is indeed significant: whether on the feet or on the ground, Nog constantly looked to improve his position (even when Ricco was on top), while Ricco had a pretty conservative gameplan, a wrestlin´-heavy one.
Meanwhile, Ricco hardly even postured up...
Round 1:
Round 2:
Round 2:
...or tried to pass guard (only once)...
Round 2:
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
2. Damage:
"No damage from striking by either party.
Possible damage from deep Kimura in round 3 by Nogueira, however, no award given to either."
3. Standing combinations and ground control:
"Neither fighter showed superiority in standing skill. "
> Here, I kindah disagree... The way I see it, Nog had a crisper strikin´on the feet, better combos, forcin´Ricco to retreat & look for the TD.
"Nogueira dominated ground control as he constantly went for submission and gave away neutral position for inferior position, yet he was able to move back to neutral position with relative ease each time."
> Interestin´ "ideology" here, for sure...
As I explained in the previous Decons, people tend do misunderstand distinct Scorin´Systems:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
1- Pride´s Scorin´System had a richer understandin´of the ground game.
2- A skill set might be seen as dominant, but only within a specific 'universe' [Fight Configuration & Scorin´Criteria].
UFC only started to [progressively] alter its 'ideology' in 2016, some 10 years later, and we would acknowledge a significant change at the Magny vs Riggs fight where Magny won the decision
with submission attempts off his back.
And it´s not only about submission attempts: reversals, for instance, were indeed more valued in that Scorin´System.
Overall, nowadays, coaches are realistically against their fighter taking any risk of losing the position,
and the 'holy' ground control, that´s why risky submissions like leg locks, armbars, etc... are no longer options in a specific Fight Configuration like UFC´s.
1- Pride´s Scorin´System had a richer understandin´of the ground game.
2- A skill set might be seen as dominant, but only within a specific 'universe' [Fight Configuration & Scorin´Criteria].
UFC only started to [progressively] alter its 'ideology' in 2016, some 10 years later, and we would acknowledge a significant change at the Magny vs Riggs fight where Magny won the decision
with submission attempts off his back.
And it´s not only about submission attempts: reversals, for instance, were indeed more valued in that Scorin´System.
Overall, nowadays, coaches are realistically against their fighter taking any risk of losing the position,
and the 'holy' ground control, that´s why risky submissions like leg locks, armbars, etc... are no longer options in a specific Fight Configuration like UFC´s.
"Nogueira also had 1 forced reversal."
Technically, Ricco had that UFC 'Ground Control', the 'primitive' one:
Round 1 = 7mn20s
Round 2 = 3mn
Round 3 = 4mn25s
In UFC, it´s a clear Ricco win, right?
"Rodriguez had 1 reversal while Nogueira was passing guard. "
> Unclear, Nog was actually goin´for a choke and gave up the top position.
"Forced reversals are more difficult to achieve and more valuable for ground control.
Rodriguez was warned many times throughout the match to improve position but chose to stay in neutral guard without damaging strikes or attempts to pass to dominant position."
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
4. Takedown and defense:
"Nogueira scored 1 clean takedown and defended 2 times.
Round 1:
Ricco scored 3 Takedowns.
Round 1:
Round 2:
Round 3:
Round 2:
Round 3:
> Ricco wins this criteria."
5. Aggressiveness:
"Nogueira wins by a large margin due to his many attempts at submission and his forward progression while striking.
The referee warned Ricco many times in this area, but did not award a yellow card penalty."
> See Gifs : Technical Sequences in 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th posts of this thread.
6. Weight difference:
"N/A. Ricco had a sizeable weight advantage [119 kg vs 106 kg] but was not more than 15 kilos."
+ Penalties:
No penalties were given although Ricco had many warnings to improve position.
CONCLUSION:
> Not a hobbery (ridiculous conspiracy 'theories' after the fight [ fueled by Ricco obviously], by the way... 'UFC vs Pride') ...
...and not even a controversial decision:
Ricco had nothin´in this fight, realistically.
> Pride had a more complex Scorin´System.
One FC now...
And...Da Wizard was again the one who dropped those judgin´ criteria...
It´s again a complex system jus´like in Pride, with 5 main criteria:
CASE STUDY: Adriano Moraes vs. Geje Eustaquio :
[Controversial] Split Decision.
From Most to Least Important:
1/ Near KO or submission?
> No near KO.
but... Near Sub? :
That´s where it gets tricky, and might explain the Split Dec.:
Moraes got mainly in the bank: 2 kneebars (not that tight tbh), 1 armbar (kindah weak, and got countered during the process> damage done), one weak guillotine choke that Moraes adjusted on the ground and which then became a slightly more legit one in the 1st Rd, then another one in the 5th Rd, well set-up, but Moraes didnt really secure the hold.
> Advantage: Moraes (dependin´clearly on the guillotine chokes, I would say)
2/ Damage done?
Except the guillotine choke in the 1st, Moraes´ sub attempts didnt last enough to inflict legit damage, realistically...
Now, on the feet, Gege inflicted more damage with: counter-punches, body kicks and leg kicks, some elbows too on the ground,
Moraes inflicted some 'light' damage when he got Gege´s back, but nothin´ really serious.
On the ground, Moraes´GNP was cleary not a factor.
> Advantage: Gege
3/ Striking combinations, ground control, generalship & control superior position.
Kindah split here: Gege had much better striking combos, obviously, kindah pressed a lil more the action (arguably)...
But Moraes had more ground control & control superior position (Gege did have his moments though, he did give his back at one point, but got Moraes´back too, b4 the rollin´ kneebars).
Advantage: None
4/ TDs & TDD
Gege defended more TDs, had some TDs too, but Moraes got more TDs
> Advantage: Moraes
5/ Aggression.
Both were aggressive, Moraes with his subs, and Gege with his striking combos, both pressed to finish the fight
> Advantage: None
Final Verdict: Damage Done vs 2 Guillotine chokes...
And...Da Wizard was again the one who dropped those judgin´ criteria...
It´s again a complex system jus´like in Pride, with 5 main criteria:
CASE STUDY: Adriano Moraes vs. Geje Eustaquio :
[Controversial] Split Decision.
From Most to Least Important:
1/ Near KO or submission?
> No near KO.
but... Near Sub? :
That´s where it gets tricky, and might explain the Split Dec.:
Moraes got mainly in the bank: 2 kneebars (not that tight tbh), 1 armbar (kindah weak, and got countered during the process> damage done), one weak guillotine choke that Moraes adjusted on the ground and which then became a slightly more legit one in the 1st Rd, then another one in the 5th Rd, well set-up, but Moraes didnt really secure the hold.
> Advantage: Moraes (dependin´clearly on the guillotine chokes, I would say)
2/ Damage done?
Except the guillotine choke in the 1st, Moraes´ sub attempts didnt last enough to inflict legit damage, realistically...
Now, on the feet, Gege inflicted more damage with: counter-punches, body kicks and leg kicks, some elbows too on the ground,
Moraes inflicted some 'light' damage when he got Gege´s back, but nothin´ really serious.
On the ground, Moraes´GNP was cleary not a factor.
> Advantage: Gege
3/ Striking combinations, ground control, generalship & control superior position.
Kindah split here: Gege had much better striking combos, obviously, kindah pressed a lil more the action (arguably)...
But Moraes had more ground control & control superior position (Gege did have his moments though, he did give his back at one point, but got Moraes´back too, b4 the rollin´ kneebars).
Advantage: None
4/ TDs & TDD
Gege defended more TDs, had some TDs too, but Moraes got more TDs
> Advantage: Moraes
5/ Aggression.
Both were aggressive, Moraes with his subs, and Gege with his striking combos, both pressed to finish the fight
> Advantage: None
Final Verdict: Damage Done vs 2 Guillotine chokes...
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-2-khabib´s-eastern-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-2-khabib´s-eastern-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
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