Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 36] - The Best Base... [SPECIAL EDITION!]

gono btw · Sep 11, 2019

Warning: TLDR here... x 11 (!)

Today:
MYTH ? > Wrestlin´is the Best Base for MMA...

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ck-b4-coning-mayweather-this-week-25.3863593/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra-36.3876141/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-38.3955161/

Complex, right? So complex that 'Decons' Threads chose to draft some 10 ~~Basement Dwe~~... OGs to provide some legit info & historical perspective on the subject.

Special Edition, today...

I] @acannxr :

If you're asking what is the best base for MMA, it creates more questions than you might hope for because a lot of it is open to interpretation, especially as you examine it through a historical perspective.

Firstly, how does one determine what a fighter's base is?

Frank Mir is a perfect example as to why this becomes a difficult question to answer; he trained in American Kenpo (primarily a striking art), he won a state championship in wrestling, and he started training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu all before ever joining the UFC. Ask yourself, what is his base? Sherdog would likely have different opinions with this example, so I'll make the decision rather easy and simply categorize Mir as a non-single base fighter, but even then, deciding who should be categorized in such a way would also have just as many varying opinions.

Secondly, what rule set are we using in this question?

Pancrase, Pride, and the UFC all had a different set of rules, and in the UFC's case a different environment, all of which would affect what bases' did well and what bases' didn't. There's also the fact that Pride doesn't exist anymore and the rules and level of competition has changed dramatically with regards to Pancrase; as a result, I'll use the UFC rule set.

Thirdly, what's the criteria for determining which base is better?

We'll use the UFC champions/interim champions as our sample.

Fourthly, what about the timeframe?

Pre-TUF 1, the UFC was not a place to make great money, but for wrestlers and BJJ practitioners it was better than what they could get anywhere else, whereas strikers could likely make more doing boxing/kickboxing (or at the very least, make comparable money without the handicap of the UFC ruleset); this means that bases need to be compared into two separate groups: Pre-TUF 1 and Post-TUF 1.

Pre-TUF 1 UFC Champions/Interim Champions (22):

Non-Single Base (36.36%):
Tim Sylvia
Frank Mir
Andrei Arlovski
Vitor Belfort
Frank Shamrock
Josh Barnett
Rich Franklin
Jens Pulver

Wrestling (36.36%):
Mark Coleman
Randy Couture
Kevin Randleman
Dave Menne
Tito Ortiz
Evan Tanner
Pat Miletich
Matt Hughes

BJJ (18.18%):
Ricco Rodriguez
Murilo Bustamante
Carlos Newton
BJ Penn

Striking (9.09%):
Maurice Smith
Bas Rutten

Post-TUF 1 UFC Champions/Interim Champions (48):

Non-Single Base (39.58%):
Chuck Liddell
Quinton Jackson
Forrest Griffin
Lyoto Machida
Mauricio Rua
Rich Franklin
Luke Rockhold
Michael Bisping
Robert Whittaker
Matt Serra
Carlos Condit
Robbie Lawler
Benson Henderson
Eddie Alvarez
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Dustin Poirier
Jose Aldo
Renan Barao
Cody Garbrandt

Wrestling (39.58%):
Brock Lesnar
Shane Carwin
Cain Velasquez
Stipe Miocic
Daniel Cormier
Rashad Evans
Jon Jones
Chris Weidman
Johny Hendricks
Tyron Woodley
Colby Covington
Kamaru Usman
Sean Sherk
Frankie Edgar
Tony Ferguson
Dominick Cruz
TJ Dillashaw
Henry Cejudo
Demetrious Johnson

Striking (14.58%):
Junior dos Santos
Anderson Silva
Georges St-Pierre
Israel Adesanya
Anthony Pettis
Conor McGregor
Max Holloway

BJJ (6.25%):
Antonio Nogueira
Fabricio Werdum
Rafael dos Anjos

So when someone asks: what's the best base for MMA? The answer is open to interpretation.

II] @boss429 :

HW- Sambo/ Judo
LHW- Wrestling
MW- Muay Thai
WW- Karate
LW- BJJ or Sambo/ Wrestling depending on your pick
FW- BJJ/ Muay Thai
BW- Wrestling
FLW- Wrestling

These are the bases of the men generally regarded as the greatest in there divisions to date.

Looking at it this way and considering how these men fought compared to the base they entered the sport with it becomes clear the question of the greatest base doesn't really have a single answer.

They all have 1 thing in common, (Khabib being the loan exception, somewhat, if he's your LW pick), a natural instinct for fighting and understanding of how to best use their mind and body to counter their opponents strength's.

Everyone loves to talk about how MMA is so much more "complex" then other traditional combat sports but in reality, in it's current form, it's actually the most basic and natural form of combat.

This is why guy's can go from a single MA's base to a well rounded MMA champion in a short period of time with little training and experience. Something that is so rare in traditional MA's competition but common in MMA because of how instinctual it is.

With that said in my opinion the best base for MMA is just that, MMA.

Now that MMA is a Martial Art of it's own though we will soon see a generation that grew up training MMA and are elite "jack of all trades" so to speak instead of guy's coming from a traditional base and learning to become well rounded but with the left over flaws and tendencies that are instilled through years focused on only one element.

Eventually this will result in MMA becoming the complex sport that only the absolute best of the best can find success in just like all the historical combat sports have developed into over generations.

At the end though it will still be the guy's with the most heart, best instincts and the ability to adapt and adjust in the heat of the moment to overcome and find a way to win no matter what that will become the legends of the sports history, just like it is today.

III] @Coconutwater :

The best base for MMA is the thing you need most of, not the thing you must absolutely have.

By this rationale, wrestling in my opinion is the best base for mixed martial arts and I believe it won't change. It's obvious the most necessary discipline in MMA is BJJ. Without BJJ, nobody gets out of the octagon or cage without being choked or heel-hooked. Yes other grappling arts have submissions but the truth is, most MMA fighters have utilized the services of the BJJ elite to learn their subs and sub defense, not catch, judo or sambo, at least, not as much. This doesn't mean the other grappling arts don't have the necessary submission skills, but rather, they're not as accessible. You can't find a Sambo Academy in every major city like you would a Gracie Barra. I also believe the curriculum is really well-defined, but that's just my opinion.

That said, BJJ's reputation was built upon being easy to learn and taking the least athleticism to pull off, I think this is true as demonstrated by the fact that most successful MMA fighters don't practice BJJ nearly as much of it as the other disciplines. They all practice BJJ regularly, but don't necessarily make it the bulk of their training. It's safe to say boxing, wrestling and Muay Thai comprise most of their regimen from a percentages stand point.

Wrestling is the best base simply because fear of the takedowns blunts stand-up offense and not being taken down blunts submission since being grounded is a requirement to utilize most of the offense.

Wrestling is the only discipline that hinders both strikers and submission hunters, this is why I believe it's the best "Base" and will forever be.

It also goes without saying that quality wrestling instruction is hard to obtain and nurture outside those fortunate enough to learn it in school, which makes its practitioners more coveted.

IV] @DayV :

When considering dominance of wrestling in today`s MMA, while BBJ dominated earlier times, we must consider all aspects, while some might elude us on the first sight.

Sure that level of knowledge is generally higher nowdays, and BJJ gyms are available all across the globe, and MMA gyms all have trainers who possess extensive knowledge of submission ground game and it`s defense, and BJJ training is to some extent incorporated into standard MMA training procedure, while in the early day many fighters did not have enough knowledge of BJJ, or even opportunity or infrastructure to get themselves familiar with it. Although existence of multiapproach and multidisciplinary teams such as Brazilian and Russian Top Team, Chute Boxe, Red Devils, Team Alliance, Lion`s Den, with inclusion of Fabricio Werdum to Cro Cop`s team, and even The Hammer House had extensive cross training collaboration with decorated BJJ practitioner Matt Serra speaks for itself, so thesis that nowdays everybody are so good with BJJ and submissions and that`s why we now rarely see much of submissions and active offensive ground game, while in the past all were clueless, is not entirely correct.

I am sure that others will write more about that process of evolution, and evaluate and compare levels of knowledge and training now and in the past, so I will let that part to them, and focus on other, often overlooked factor of wrestling dominance in today`s MMA.

The thing that I think have a big impact on this subject is today`s dominance of Northern American version and approach to MMA, cage and unified rules, we now have in fact a poverty of MMA rules and variations. In the past, that was not the case. MMA scene was much richer and colorful in old days, with different variations of rules and environments, and different approaches and philosophies behind it.

UFC, unified rules and cage are in fact tailored in favor of wrestling. It is an American organization, and tradition and influence of school and college wrestling and wrestling as a wide base for large number home competitors and fan favorites is much bigger than that of BJJ or judo.

- Unified rules and judging criteria are in fact very wrestling friendly. Top position dominance and lay and pray have big impact on judging, and judges give great value to it, while in some other organizations and MMA variants like PANCRASE and RINGS positional control was not valued that much, and scoring was awarded much more for offensive submission activity and attempts.

- Wrestlers are protected with rules, in comparison to PRIDE. No kicks, knees and stomps on grounded fighter makes shooting for takedown much safer, and presents significantly lower risk for wrestler without danger of being quickly and easily punished for failed takedown attempt and in situation when opponent successfully sprawls and stays above them.

- Elbows have big overall negative impact on BJJ and offensive ground game. They really reduce possibilities for offensive bottom game since it is so easy to cut opponent who is on the bottom with fast short sharp elbows that require very little setup. Elbows are hard to defend, on the other hand while other rule set without elbows were on the major scene, offensive BBJ ground game was more richer and active, since you had only fists and wrists of the top position opponent to worry about and control, which gave much more options to BJJ and Judo experts with strong guard game, triangles and armbar skills. Top fighter had to create much more distance to land an effective strike and had to open himself much more which gave an opportunity to fighter like Nogueira and Fedor to really enforce their offensive ground game on opponents. Nogueira was especially feared for his deadly guard and leg triangles from the bottom and nobody wanted to end with him on the mat.

- Nowadays even doctrine and possibility of offensive bottom game is almost considered not to be an efficient and recommended option in major training camps, and fighter are taught and trained to get on the feet as soon as possible, and not to stay on the bottom position and to escape as soon as they can from there to avoid risk of elbows that present threat of their own and in combination with fists make it even more difficult to counter, and to escape risk of opponent`s wrestling top control that has big impact on scoring.

- Cage and wire fence are bad for BJJ because the fence restricts freedom of movement and setting up of position. Opponent can fix a fighter on the fence and keep him in position with limited movement options, or fix his head so he can land strikes easily. Ring with restarts in the middle on flat open ground with no restrictions to movement was much better for BJJ and Judo practitioners and offensive ground game. Fence is often used by wrestlers as a tool for dominance and position control. Fence prevents movement of legs, prevents sprawls and makes it more difficult to defend takedown. Opponent is pressed on the wire and wrestler uses it to maintain clinch and use dirty boxing or just to lay his body weight on opponent and exhauste him guy who has to lift his weight with underhooks for long periods of time. After all wrestlers, especially Greco-roman ones are trained and conditioned for intensive and long body to body pushing and pressure, and wire fence and judging criteria that allows long clinch times really play to their advantage. Ring is much different, ropes are elastic and are not fixed obstacle, it is easier to escape clinch, defend takedown and wrestling pressure, ropes are lower and leave upper body and arms free to strike.

- 5 minute round leaves a lot less time to build and work on submissions and offensive ground positions and attempts. 10 minute round of PRIDE was much better for submission game, it gave more time to set it up.

- Ban and prohibition of Gi and kimono usage also plays a part against BBJ and judo. Gi allowed really helped offensive ground experts to maintain traction for longer time, to reduce impact of sweat that leaves window and time for successful submission in UFC very low, and allowed various techniques of GI usage for submission that we do not see nowadays in American setting. Fighters like Yoshida and Royce Gracie were the real experts in usage of GI as both offensive and defensive weapon, and they really had large arsenal of techniques with it.

In general, today`s version of UFC unified rules and North American MMA approach are significantly tailored in favor of wrestling, which makes it a lot important, while in some other times in the past other organizations and rulesets like PRIDE and especially PANCRASE and RINGS gave much more emphasis and importance to offensive ground game and martial arts like BJJ and judo. So the reason why we see a lot less submissions and a lot less active submission and ground game today in comparison to some older eras is not entirely due to evolution, accessibility to BJJ trainings and gyms and so called greater knowledge and expertise about BJJ and submissions that some think every fighter nowadays possess. Different dominant rules and different dominant environment where the fight take place also play a big part.

V] @FKA :

Is wrestling truly the best base for mixed martial arts?????

Throughout the history of MMA we've seen the propaganda used to say a certain martial art is the best, but its changed over the years from first being a singular style is superior to all others to now being what singular style is best to base yourself with.

UFCs SEG era showed when singular styles are pitted against one another that Bjj was effective against every style including wrestling.Royce beat the larger wrestler/catch wrestler Ken Shamrock as well as the MUCH larger Dan Severn.

As MMA evolved to be more rounded we seen in PRIDE that fighters who mastered standup and grappling became more and more common.Being a master in 1 singular style was no longer viable being a bjj BlackBelt or an Olympic wrestler no longer could carry you to the title.

Wrestling IMHO is a solid base to start with but isnt necessarily the best base overall.Sambo is actually my pick for the best base as it includes all the components of MMA from the very beginning.

Sambo guys learn standup and grappling at high levels from the beginning and it allows for a well rounded fighter but also the ability to still be unique.We seen Fedor dominate during that era showing off top level takedowns, submissions,GNP,and also masterful standup.

While in today's landscape with the current judging,scoring criteria wrestling has been touted as the best base for mma but it's not the most well rounded base or even the most effective when pitted against another style.wrestling now is mostly used for smothering and positioning and while its important to control your opponent I'd still lean toward a style that's much more practical for fighting that includes every dimension of MMA.Best example being khabib nurmagomedov showing a complete game out striking McGregor and easily out grappling him leading to a dominant finish.

VI] @gonobtw :

[See Next Post]

VII] @-guerilla- :

[See Next Post]

VIII] @Myrddin Wild :

[See Next Post]

IX] @One MMA Fan :

[See Next Post]

X] @Sapp :

[See Next Post]

XI] @Typrune Goatley :

[See Next Post]

'Decons' Threads would like to thank the 10 OGs who accepted to dedicate some time here.
Maxximum Hespect.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-1-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/

gono btw · Sep 11, 2019

VI] @gono btw Rounds :

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE:

> In the early 1990s, Horion kept hypin´BJJ, or better:GJJ, as the "best base since the 1930s", while the truth was quite different in the Vale Tudo scene ...

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/

> Roberto Leitão, Marco Huas´s Luta Livre coach, would counter this narrative, sayin´that wrestlin´is more
essential since this is the skill set that allows you to dictate where the fight takes place.

> Then, when wrestlers began to dominate the NHB scene, the narrative progressively shifted towards wrestling:
Tito at ringside @ UFC 28 would tell how wrestlin´was the best base since it was then easier to add other skills [striking/submission game] later

> A few years later, his ol´foe Mezger would counter (at ringside in Dream) that "TDs are overrated."

This problematic seems kindah tricky to assess, indeed...
From a rather simplistic situation (at least in the American scene...)...

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/

...this problematic progressively evolved from a MA vs MA configuration to a 'mindset' & adaptation accordin´to specific 'configurations':

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621

Fighters had/might have a complex background, or chose to implement a specific gameplan accordin´to one of these dimensions.

Essentially, The most dominant base is the result of a complex combo, a mix of 3 essential parameters:

Dominant Base = [Market] x [Fight Configuration] x [Scorin´Criteria]

I/ MARKET :

Each market has an historical background:
> Russia: Sambo
> Brazil: BJJ & Luta Livre
> USA: Wrestlin´, Boxin´, Catch Wrestlin´
> Japan: Judo, Karate, Catch Wrestlin´
> Holland: KB/MT
etc...

And each market has to satisfy its local audience 1st, which necessarily means buildin´potential stars accordin´ to the local 'universe' of skill sets.
Obviously, each market is keen on hypin´its Fight Configuration, claimin´that this is the 'real' MMA & its definitive evolution.
The truth is... Each org tries to target a market, promoting a certain type of 'entertainment' according to its core market.
This choice predetermines what kind of ruleset will be effective or not under this fight configuration.

Sergio Batarelli, IVC´s promotor, said that the current UFC´s fight configuration is a "joke", "much too watered down compared to the real Vale Tudo tradition."

Hence, Rings or Early Pancrase, for instance, were no less MMA than current UFC.

CASE STUDY 1 : Brazilian scene > IVC

In the past, some key players (Frederico Lapenda [WVC] or Sergio Batarelli [IVC]) were instrumental in scoutin´ foreign markets.

The end of the 1990s/beginnin´of the 2000s is for sure the most interestin´era, since that was the time when:

> Cross-Trainin´teams were progressively created.

> The talent pool was not concentrated: fighters would jump from one MMA Org. to another, and
experience pretty different Fight Configurations, that would decisively shape their skill set
(Pride wouldnt be Pride without the Pancrase & Rings experiments...)

IVC, especially, was keen on buildin´ a truly international roster (1st African there!: boxer Kizongi Vita from Congo...).
Many Americans, especially wrestlers, made the transition:
some 17 fighters with [primarily] wrestling background had 28 fights there...

IVC:

Gary Myers x 2
Branden Lee Hinkle x 2
Adrian Serrano x 2
John "The Saint" Renken x 2
Jason Godsey [Pancrase / Wrestling] x 2
Brian Raynei [Pancrase / Wrestling]
Lane Andrews [KB / Wrestling]
Brian Keck
John Gnap
Sean Bormet
Gerald Taylor
Darrel Gholar
Aaron Sullivan
Eugene Jackson
Mike Van Arsdale

Mike Van Arsdale x 3
Alex Stiebling [Wrestling/MT] x 4
Beast Severn

CONTEXT:

Beast [1 W], obviously past his physical prime (39 yrs old), sure..but... was 46 lbs heavier
Beast = 269 lbs
Ebenezer = 222 lbs

Braga was a career LHW.

Note:some kind of controversy here, accordin´2 Braga (special clause in Beast´s contract... I´ll try to assess it one day.)

2nd: Van Arsdale [3 W-1 L]: [211 lbs/6´2] :

1- vs Wand : destroyed.

2- vs Francisco Nonato [227 lbs/6´2]
Nonato was either [matter of timin´] only a Purple Belt, or a recent Brown Belt in BJJ (3rd in World Cup 1997 - Purple Belt)
Consequently, in terms of 'credentials' & experience, quite a mismatch...
[See how Van Arsdale handled Verissimo a few years later @ The Contenders 2000.]

3- vs Marcelo Barbosa: really undersized, chubby [220 lbs/5´8]
11 months later, @ IVC 8, he had already slimmed down to...196 lbs.

4- vs Dario Amorim:[213 lbs/6´]
Hence, that was a Tournament, Final Fight of the night:
Amorim had spent 33 mns (2 fights) in the ring vs 9mn for Van Arsdale
(one of these 2 fights: vs Bob Gilstrap, 30mns, who had gone the distance against Josh Barnett some 6 months earlier
@ UFCF - Road to the Championships 1)

His skill set: Luta Livre Budokan / MT
He was a MT Champ in Rio de Janeiro.

He started his Vale Tudo career in that IVC Tournament.
What does it [probably] mean?
That, jus´like Ebenezer Braga (MT background too, who transitioned to Vale Tudo via Luta Livre Budokan), after his MT run, he probably went to the Luta Livre Budokan gym, had some basic lessons on the ground game, and then was called (probably on short notice) to fight @ IVC. (this is basically how Braga started his career with Master Luis Alves)

3rd: Stiebling [4 W] had Wrestling & MT as backgrounds, but in terms of gameplan & mindset, he was arguably a striker.
+ he had the easier bracket [MW one, not the heavier one]

...with some limited results:

8 Wins - 20 Losses

Different Fight Configuration [Ring/Vale Tudo rules etc] obviously explains this relative lack of success.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/

And it´s not like they were 'trapped' by some high level submission artists.
IVC´s Brazilian roster was actually pretty balanced: BJJ / Luta Livre / MT (Sergio Baratelli, IVC´s promotor, was actually a former Kickboxer from the Vale Tudo era...).
Wrestlin´ was then dominatin´in the US, but outside...different story...

CASE STUDY 2 : Japanese vs European scenes
> Rings Holland x Rings Japan [or Strikers vs Grapplers...]

Akira Maeda founded Rings [Japan] after leavin´ UWF [pro-wrestlin´].
His 'ideology' was to build a new MMA Org. with emphasis on the grapplin´game (he had a feud about it
in his former Org.).
Several 'teams' (by country) were created, which even led to the creation of some independent MMA Org.,
like Rings Holland (run by Chris Dolman).

Both had apparently the same Fight Configuration, but...some interestin´differences:

RINGS JAPAN :
> Roster: truly International, Japanese fighters bein´a surprisin´ minority.

> Dominant Skill Set: Grapplers [Pro Wrasslin´world & Judokas collidin´ for the 1st time with a new wave of sambo fighters who would have access to this new market thanks to the end of the Cold War, along with a new wave of Brazilian fighters [mainly BJJ but also Luta Livre]

> Emphasis: Ground Game > Submissions.

RINGS HOLLAND :
> Roster: mainly Dutch Gyms

Dolman Gym
Chakuriki
Nijman/Halderen Gym
Kist Gym
Carbin/Kops Gym
Loeks Gym
Fysio Sport Line
Mejiro Gym
Kops/Felter Gym
Hoopman

> Dominant Skill Set: mostly KB/MT gyms, with interestin´exceptions:
- Chakuriki Gym [Thom Harinck] : "Chakuriki" > MA based on Kyokushin Karate, Boxing, Judo, JJ & wrestling.
- Dolman Gym : Chris Dolman, legit pioneer (1st non-Russian Sambo Champ) in cross-trainin´ > Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling
[see how his students Reem Bros, Bas, Yvel etc... transitioned to MMA]

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/

> Emphasis: definitely not the Ground Game > Strikin´: Kicks & Knees.

II/ FIGHT CONFIGURATION :

Fight Configuration is a decisive parameter that can influence the evolution of a skill set, through multiple dimensions:

> Cage or Ring
> Gloves or not
> Shoes or not
> Gi or No-Gi
> Soft or hard mat
> Time limit or not
> Rounds or not
> Stand-ups or not
> Referee´s understandin´ of the ground game, & interpretation of the rules.
> Limited Striking on the ground [knee/soccer kicks / GNP or not]
etc...

Any subtle change in one of these parameters can decisively change the dynamic & evolution of a fight/generation.

CASE STUDY 1 : American & Brazilian scenes
> UFC & WVC : BJJ & the evolution from the OW era to Modern MMA

> That´s what them Gracies quickly understood back then, in their 1st BJJ/Vale Tudo fights
against Judokas (Kimura etc...): throws & hard mat could be a lethal combo for their skill set (special Config. > soft mats).

> More recently [1993, shortly after UFC 1], in their gym the Machado Bros refused to roll with Funaki without him wearin´a Gi.

> Rounds & time limit are clearly decisive:

The evolution from the Vale Tudo era to the NHB one saw the end of an ol´paradigm:
the no time limit.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/

The OW era progressively lost its relevance because of a [definitive] change in these 2 parameters.

UFC 5 & Kerr´s victory over Gurgel at WVC literally traumatized the whole BJJ Community.
The Kerr vs Gurgel fight at WVC changed the paradigm for the BJJ community, and showed that the no rounds fight configuration is insufficient for a smaller [technical] competitor against a bigger one, especially [super-roided] wrasslers.

CASE STUDY 2 : Japanese scene
> Pride´s qualitative shift:

Now, in retrospect, the NHB/Vale Tudo era was indeed less refined, technically...
Even the BJJ Black Belts, more often than not, would look for GNP, possibly a RNC...

Early Pancrase & Rings tried to promote a new evolution, more technical, forcin´ fighters to work on their
ground game and trying to build a submission game (no GNP).
A talented generation willing to create cross-training teams, and adapt their game to a new fight configuration, technically more demanding .

And you could say that both had a clear influence in Early Pride´s game...

Then, Pride added some rules, particularly one that made it difficult for submission artists to take risks on the ground:
[till the knee-to-a-downed-opponent rule, technically > Pride 13],

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-38.3955161/

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

HENDO: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

HENDO: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

Whether you argue that this change benefitted the wrestlers or the strikers, one thing is sure:
one particular type of skill set [grapplers:submission artists] had to face & adapt to a new Fight Configuration.

CASE STUDY 3 : Japanese vs European scenes
> Rings Holland x Rings Japan [or Strikers vs Grapplers...]

The Referee´s understandin´ of the ground game, & interpretation of the rules, can be a decisive factor.

The Ref. in Japan, more experienced, would let the game flow on the ground, while the one in Holland, less accustomed (at one point, Rings Holland promoted Willie Peeters (!) as one of its main Refs...) with the grapplin´ part of the game, would stop the action & call for a [quick] stand-up.

Here in Holland, the Ref. quickly stops Marc Van Rooyen who´s transitionin´to the full mount...

There, in Japan, Fedor gettin´more time to work after his reversal...

CASE STUDY 4 : Russian scene
> Pankration Atrium Cup : Khabib & the Magomedov fight:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-2-khabib´s-eastern-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/

Note 1: Fight Configuration:
The Referee, jus´ like in Rings Holland, was a huge fan of the stand-up rule...(even when Khabib had side control...)

Note 2: Since Pankration Atrium Cup had such a trigger-happy stand-up rule, consequently ground control had to have lil value...

Pankration Atrium Cup reminds me of the Japanese Lumax Cup, in the 1990s, some kind of proto-MMA.
Consequently, it is quite possible that the Scorin´System might have been heavily influenced by the Combat Sambo´s universe, where, among other things, TDs are indeed rewarded.

This subtle & distinct Fight Configuration would obviously be a nightmare for some specific skill sets,
which would literally need to emulate (quick transitions to lock the submission) Funaki in that singular match-up:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra-36.3876141/

III/ SCORIN` CRITERIA :

A [BJJ] UFC fighter said recently:
“If I’m at the bottom, it’s a waste of time to throw up submissions. It’s better to get back on my feet."

The Fight Configuration (along with the Scorin´Criteria) has a direct influence on the skill set of a whole generation, literally shapin´it..

The Scorin´Criteria dictates the evolution of a fight & its qualitative assessment.

The emblematic fight here is for sure the Nog vs Ricco one...

CASE STUDY: PRIDE > Big Nog vs Ricco Rodriguez

Controversial decision, but some people tend to forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...

Under the Unified Rules [USA], it´s potentially a Ricco win (wrestling-heavy gameplan in that fight, limited striking, even on the ground due to Nog´s grip & Ricco´s reluctancy at posturin´up, lack of submission thread), since he mostly had the Ground Control in that fight.

But under Pride´s [complex] Scorin´ System, a Nog win is indeed a no-brainer:
> crisper strikin´on the feet
> legit & diversified submission threats on the ground

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-37-controversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

What does it imply? That:

1- Pride´s Scorin´System had a richer understandin´of the ground game.

2- A skill set might be seen as dominant, but only within a specific 'universe' [Fight Configuration & Scorin´Criteria].

UFC only started to [progressively] alter its 'ideology' in 2016, some 10 years later, and we would acknowledge a significant change at the Magny vs Riggs fight where Magny won the decision
with submission attempts off his back.

And it´s not only about submission attempts: reversals, for instance, were indeed more valued in that Scorin´System.

Overall, nowadays, coaches are realistically against their fighter taking any risk of losing the position,
and the 'holy' ground control, that´s why risky submissions like leg locks, armbars, etc... are no longer options in a specific Fight Configuration like UFC´s.

In short: 5mns Rounds along with undervalued Submission attempts means a tougher time for a specific type of skill set.

CONCLUSION:

> A Dominant Base is always inherent to a subtle evolution of 3 essential parameters:
- Market
- Fight Configuration
- Scorin´Criteria

>

VII] @-guerilla- :

The term mixed martial arts literally means several martial arts glued together to create a new sport however Americans didn't invent MMA competition they rediscovered it as it has been occurring in human history throughout many cultures in multiple different forms however the earliest recorded european organized MMA events were Greek Pankration

The trouble with our modern American society as it relates to fight Sports is that we are profit minded and liability risk averse society and we dont develop training opportunities that are based on fundamental scientific principles but on profit and a aversion of risk

No one could survive having strictly a "Fight Club" in modern american society

They have to offer an "A-LA-CART" martial arts training system where prospective clients can pick and choose their particular favorite style of practice for their particular applications

It's natural to believe that wrestling is the best base for MMA because we have recently seen wrestling rise to the top of grappling Sports Proficiency in the Mixed Martial Arts World however I have spoken at Great length about this fallacy in multiple threads

we clearly experienced Brazilian jiu-jitsu come into its own and then fall out of dominance and the same thing will happen with wrestling as it is a grappling Sport and thus limited by all the rules and particular idiosyncrasies of all grappling sports

the reason wrestling has been so effective in mixed martial arts is because it is America's last publicly-funded combat sport whereas Superior martial arts are treated as a profit-making risk-averse business

wrestling is literally a state-supported combat sport thru the american public school system

This naturally creates the fallacy that wrestling is the best base for MMA however it's clearly obvious that Styles like pankration and shooto are wildly superior however they are treated like a for-profit risk-averse business not a state-supported combat sport

Clearly if we had pankration/shooto in every Public School in North America wrestling would be nearly non-existent in the Mixed Martial Arts realm and all are great wrestlers in MMA would be bested by their pankration practicing counterparts

long story short mixed martial arts literally means a handful of martial arts "glued together" to create a modern style of combat sports

we did not invent MMA we simply rediscovered the ancient sport of Greek pankration

Americans 1993 rediscovery of pankration competition [via UFC 1 ] was aptly named NO HOLDS BARRED for the time being however the term MIXED MARTIAL ARTS gradually took over in the lexicon

I'm sure we could come up with a better and more descriptive term then pankration however it is truly and scientifically the best base for MMA because it's MMA grandfather

I must acknowledge that this assessment is clearly "eurocentric" as multiple forms of MMA competition evolved across human history in multiple cultures however Pankration is the best documented and well studied form of GRAPPLING+STRIKING in combat sports history

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-real-reason-wrestlers-dominate-the-ufc-american-mma.3959991/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...c-mma-wrestling-is-not-best-mma-base.3983081/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooto

gono btw · Sep 11, 2019

VIII] @Myrddin Wild :

My Consolidated Opinions on the best base for MMA

#1 - I believe by far that Collegiate wrestling is the best base for MMA

Obviously you have to have a well rounded game no matter what your "BASE" is.
That said... in watching master specialists of one particular discipline or the other throughout the years get into MMA & begin cross-training... it's extremely obvious to me that high end Collegiate wrestlers make the transition better & are more dominant throughout their careers.
Those in other disciplines who do well, typically cross-train in the Collegiate Wrestling style... so that's a further nod to the technique
We see Collegiate specialists dominate with relatively little other cross-training, as early as Severn, Coleman, Frye, & Tito...etc... etc... etc.... & to this day with countless collegiate wrestlers in the top 10... including most current UFC champions either having their base in Collegiate wrestling... or having a razor focus on that technique in MMA training. (Khabib would be a great example of the later statement.)
First Collegiate Wrestling rules were penned in 1927 (this style made the night & day distinction between Collegiate & any other style of wrestling including the many varieties of "Folk" style. iow... Folk style is too broad of a subject... it's the lazer focus of Collegiate wrestling that is what is winning MMA matches.)

The above is glaringly obvious imo. So to create a unique perspective... perhaps you could use your extensive knowledge of how wrestlers were doing prior to the UFC's big boom of Collegiate stars. maybe even show how some freestyle guyz were falling short. (or perhaps doing well if they cross-trained in enough other disciplines)

Maybe even hunt down some early Collegiate wrestling champs who dabbled in MMA before the UFC's big boom. I don't personally know of any, but maybe there is one or 2 that tried it. most likely there wasn't enough money in it for them to re-locate to another country where these events were happening... so I can understand why Collegiate Wrestlers weren't involved till it got bigger with the UFC.

Could be interesting to compare the collegiate method to the "top riding" techniques that you've seen to be successful in early pre-UFC events. I don't know specifics, but I doubt we'd ever see a non-collegiate wrestler able to maintain the top position every single time like Collegiate wrestlers do. Freestyle wrestlers just don't have that ability since their discipline calls for the ref to save them.

None of that past stuff though really effects what we're seeing today. I want that to be clear as day imo. It's all just "conversational" at best due to the dominance of Collegiate Wrestling once the UFC gave those Collegiate champions a new outlet after collage & olympic dreams were off the table. iow... once that happened, they easily showed how dominant that style is for MMA... but it might be fun to do some comparisons to earlier "master specialist" wrestlers who tried their hand at MMA prior to the Collegiate's getting into it.

IX] @One MMA Fan :

My 2 cents on wrestling as the best base for MMA.

We keep hearing this phrase said to us: "wrestling might just be the best base for MMA" from guys like Joe Rogan on the live PPV broadcast or in his debates on MMA podcasts and we see it used a lot on sherdog fallowed by the go to easy statistic of "hey just look at the UFC Champions how many of them are wrestling based ?" well heck I agree with them but why is that ?

Wrestling just might be the oldest 'martial art' in existence from the time that cavemen A wanted the woman of cavemen B.. why because it's natural you get close and you grab the other guy and you try to mess him up to the best of your abilities, it's the default go to you might see it on the playground between 2 kids it's that primal and appears in every culture.

Brings me to my next point what other fighter/athlete starts training in his discipline earlier then wrestlers ? no one, you do it from a very early age, you do it vs your brother, vs your friends while getting cheered on by your father if its in good fun and then you do it as school in an organized environment with trainers expertise.. this doesn't happen in say boxing this is a major advantage that wrestling has.

What it does it creates a very competitive environment and builds experience, what other discipline has the infrastructure and sheer numbers of people doing it ? you do it at home, school, highschool, college, olympics and finally strong MMA applications.

That is why I value a gold medal in wrestling more then say one in Judo because of the millions of active practitioners around the world and most important the strong system and infrastructure wrestling (in it's different variations) has. This is why we go gaga when we hear someone has a medal in the Olympics and we hope he can integrate it even half good in MMA cause we would be in for a real treat if he manages that.

It also creates strong minds, it builds character, grit, hard work, discipline, learning to winning and lose etc etc.. it has all aspects this wrestlers coming out from highly competitive environments from D1 and up are easily in my eyes the best material to mold into a great fighter. Imagine Romero 15-20 years younger after just going in the wrestling machine in his country and coming out the beast that he is that is what I'm talking about when all the chips fall just right.

Ability to choose the battlefield, you want it down ? well okay let's go down, you want it standing cause you want to box him up fine let's do that, you want it in a clinch again all this is facilitated by wrestling the other parts of MMA like Striking based or BJJ (submissions) based doesn't provide this kind of flexibility.

What comes easy for wrestler to develop naturally ? well sub defense that's the first thing they pick up and the more savvy they are the better they get at going offensive with subs but most of them prefer the good old GnP approach.

Last to mention the downside most wrestlers face problems with striking be it not used to taking hits (who can blame them if you really think about it) and learning to strike properly.. they aren't really built for it either they are more suited for the GnP then going for crisp boxing or leg kicks (Justin Gaethje says hi but that guy is an outlier).

X] @Sapp :

I’d say wrestling is likely not the best base in respect to being skillset with all other training variables equal, as it is clearly not a complete system for NHB/MMA for a variety of reasons.

However, I do think that it is probably the best base for MMA in terms of being a training background. The athletic demands are similar in respect to training, strength and conditioning, and weight cutting which, for better or for worse, is a major factor in today’s MMA. There is a deep talent pool and well-established amateur competition structure, and programs available at the youth level. Wrestlers who have gone through a long amateur career seem to be mentally and physicaly well adapted for MMA

gono btw · Sep 11, 2019

XI] @Typrune Goatley :

For much of the last century, a burning question has remained: which martial art is the best or most effective? This was the premise of UFC 1 in 1993. This was also the dillema of Shooto fighters in Japan in the 1980's and 1990's, in how they should organize their training time. The Gracies defended their style of Jiu Jitsu as well as their family name against a plethora of challengers in the Vale Tudo era in Brazil dating back to the 1930's. These types of competitions stretch all the way back to at least ancient Greek or Roman times, when boxers, wrestlers and Pankration fighters were matched up with one another in violent battles. Even today in 2019 the question still remains: what is the best combat base for Mixed Martial Arts? Many believe the answer is still Wrestling. After all, many of the current champions come from wrestling backgrounds and we have also seen many champions and greats of the past who were also wrestlers. However, we have also seen champions and contenders from all fighting origins: fighters with bases in Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, BJJ, Judo and Sambo. There are many factors that determine if a wrestler (or fighter of any background) will be successful in an MMA setting

1. Individual
Obviously, a career trajectory could be determined by the fighter's individual aptitude for the sport of MMA. As an elite athlete, are they entering the sport to collect quick paychecks or are they truly training to be one of the best in the world? We have seen many world class wrestlers such as Eldar, Kevin Jackson and others enter MMA competition for only a brief period. They may seem successful at first relying on their wrestling and elite athletic abilities but after experiencing a few losses or adversity we have seen them quit the sport. This is not exclusive to wrestlers obviously, as we have seen one of the greatest submission grapplers of all time, Marcelo Garcia, fight in only one MMA bout and never again. On the flip side is somebody like Yoel Romero, an Olympian who suffered a brutal KO loss early in his career, but persevered and continued on fighting and eventually reached the top of the sport, fighting in back to back extremely close world title fights.

2. Variation/levels of training
Of course not all wrestlers are created equal and not all are blessed with the same training and experiences. There are many many levels to wrestling, as is the case with all combat sports. How can we generalize wrestlers in an MMA context when the variation in skill is so massive? Some fighters come from youth or high school wrestling programs, some were collegiate wrestlers of varying degrees and some went on to wrestle on the international level. It should come as no surprise that many that competed at the international or Olympic stage have gone on to have great success in MMA. Names like Mark Coleman, Dan Henderson, Daniel Cormier, Henry Cejudo, Yoel Romero come to mind. However, for each of of those names, there are examples of great wrestlers who did not see much success in MMA like Eldar Kurtinzade, Royce Alger and others. We have also seen athletes from the highest levels of kickboxing like Mirko Cro Cop and Mark Hunt were top 5 and top 10 Heavyweights in MMA for many many years. We have also seen BJJ superstars like Fabricio Werdum, Jacare Souza, Demian Maia climb to the top of MMA. It should not come as a surprise that these elite competitors and combat athletes are able to find success in MMA after devoting several years to the sport.

3. Rounding out the rest of their game

Wrestling by itself teaches many important skills that can become useful for a fight such as takedowns, takedown defense, ground control, conditioning, discipline, etc. Some wrestlers can move into MMA and succeed right away due to many of these redeeming qualities, however, the sport of wrestling alone is not a complete fighting system. Take Brock Lesnar for example. In his second MMA fight, he started off strong against Frank Mir, but before long he was caught in a leglock by the submission expert Mir. Perhaps Lesnar worked on his submission defense from that point onward, as we never saw him submitted again in MMA competition. However, his refusal to spar and lack of striking defense was exposed when he fought Cain Velasquez and Alistair Overeem. He was unable to impose his wrestling strategy in those bouts and was stopped with strikes.

A wrestler improving their striking and submission abilities could determine whether their MMA ceiling is closer to someone like Tyron Woodley (who reached the pinnacle of the sport) or will they fail to rise above the level of say someone like Jake Rosholt.

4. Rules of org

Obviously, the rules of the event will affect the performance of the fighter---for better or worse. A fight inside a ring usually favors aggressive strikers as they are able to cut the ring off and corner their opponents whereas a caged enclosure more often than not favors the counter striker, as there is more space to circle away and keep distance. Wrestlers usually fare much better in a cage as they are able to press their opponents against the cage and the fence can also assist in completing takedowns. Overall, there appears to be more stalling and down time in the cage than in the ring, which would favor wrestlers that are looking to win by decision rather than finish (Examples: Colby Covington, Kamaru Usman, George St. Pierre, etc.) Fights inside of a ring take away the stalling against the fence that you see so much in the UFC. In a ring, when two fighters are up against the ropes, there is less stalling and more action. (Proper striking, takedown struggles and evasive maneuvers can actually be deployed instead of somebody being held against a fence and wasting time. If the fighters hit the mat near the edge of the ring and are in danger of falling out, the tradition is usually to restart in the middle of the ring. In this manner, the skills of the combatants becomes more significant in determining the result of the bout, as opposed to two fighters stalling and/or resting against a fence.

A 10 minute round is more likely to result in a finish than a 5 minute round. This is common sense as more time allows a KO or submission to occur. There is also the factor in conditioning and breaking down your opponent over 10 minutes instead of 5. In a 5 minute round, both fighters return to their corners, are allowed 1 minute rest and then the fight is restarted on the feet. This process will lead to fewer finishes. It is completely different in a 10 minute round, where you can break your opponent down and/or have just that extra bit of time to work a finish whether it is by submission or accumulation of strikes. For these reasons, the 5 minute rounds usually favor the wrestler, who can execute takedowns and/or clinch against the cage. They only need to land a little bit of GNP and ride their way to a decision win under the American system. The 10 minute round historically favored devastating strikers and submission artists, who had just a little more time to work for a finish.

There is also the issue of judging criteria. In Japan, the most important criteria was damage and looking to finish the fight. There were far fewer controversial decisions in PRIDE than we see in the UFC today.

For many years in the United States, judges were awarding rounds to wrestlers who would take their opponent down yet do very little with the position once down on the mat. Even if the bottom man was working more toward a finish through submission attempts and/or elbows, the judges would still consistently award the round to the top man. Thankfully, it appears this travesty and misunderstanding is moving toward a brighter future. A very recent high profile fight between Rizin champion Kyoji Horiguchi and Bellator champion Darrion Caldwell put the rulebook under the spotlight. Caldwell wqs able to consistently take Kyoji down and press him against the fence but would not mount any offense or make any attempts to pass guard or improve position. Meanwhile, Horiguchi was constantly throwing strikes from the bottom. As the decision was read, many were fearful the judges would award the victory to the passive wrestler Caldwell, however, it was a pleasant surprise to see the judges were more impressed with Kyoji's offense. This may have been a major breakthrough in American MMA and finally a true "evolution" of the scoring system.

Another important difference in American and Japanese MMA is rounds are scored in the U.S. while in Japan, fights were scored as a whole. It is much easier for fighters and coaches to keep track of rounds won or lost, and this can create "coasting" or stalling at every level. In Japan, a sudden flurry or damage or change of position or submission attempt could alter the judges' perception of the fight. Finishing strong also seemed to be valued as well by the Japanese judges.

And finally we come to the rules on legal/illegal attacks, most notably knees and/or kicks to a downed opponent....

In conclusion, we can see that wrestling is a very important facet of fighting, just like kickboxing, clinch work and submission grappling. A wrestler can become a successful fighter, depending on many factors and circumstances as we explained above. We have seen wrestlers like Randy Couture, Daniel Cormier, Mark Coleman, Henry Cejudo become champions in MMA yet we have also seen BJJ greats like Maia, Jacare and Werdum reach the top of the sport. We have also seen world class kickboxers such as Cro Cop and Hunt highly ranked for many years. Cro Cop especially displayed amazing takedown defense against literally dozens of high level wrestlers and grapplers. We have also seen hybrid fighters like Fedor (Judo, Sambo, Kickboxing) hold the #1 world ranking for 7 years. The greatest Middleweight fighter in MMA history, Anderson Silva, actually had subpar wrestling ability, but was still able to reign over his division for nearly 7 years, due to his deadly striking and submission skills off his back. We have seen Muay Thai/BJJ hybrids like Wanderlei Silva and Shogun Rua becomes World Champions and these men were never competitive wrestlers. The same goes for champions like Rafael Dos Anjos, Junior Dos Santos, Anthony Pettis. They were never great wrestlers yet possessed the all around skills to win their gold. Lyoto Machida reached the pinnacle of the sport and has one of the deepest resumes of all time with his background of Karate, BJJ and Sumo. Jose Aldo, the FW GOAT, had a BJJ and striking background, yet developed arguably the greatest takedown defense in the history of the sport. Ditto for Georges St. Pierre, who came from a karate and BJJ background, yet after extensive training with the Canadian national wrestling team, GSP developed top tier takedown and takedown defense abilities. Of course guys like Cro Cop, GSP and Aldo are outliers and not the norm, yet their names must be mentioned in this discussion for their mastery of takedown defense without a proper wrestling background.

There are currently many UFC champions who were former wrestlers yet we still have guys loke Max Holloway whose main bases appear to be boxing and BJJ. While wrestling is obviously an extremely useful skill, it is not the "end all be all" of fighting, and I say this as a wrestler and fighter myself. There are simply too many factors at play in this sport and once a wrestler dives deep enough into his MMA training and studies to become a proficient well rounded fighter, he is no longer just a wrestler, he is now a Mixed Martial Artist.

meauneau · Sep 11, 2019

Hispek!

Grill master · Sep 11, 2019

Beautifully constructed as always, Gono. Thank you sir.

TapMachine · Sep 11, 2019

The best base for MMA is the one you specialize in. Single base specialists that add layers of MMA-related skills on top of it are the best, in my opinion.

Of course, the best example would be wrestlers learning to strike.

EDIT: Also, I don't agree with the notion of MMA being the best base for MMA. If you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, you're going to get worked by a specialist with an MMA adapted game.

Cpt Migraine · Sep 11, 2019

why make a thread like this when you can just link some twitter comment? what a waste..

jk, this is what threads should be like!

sonofjay817 · Sep 11, 2019

I know its not fair to feel this way and its incorrect, but on a gut level, wrestling in MMA always strikes me as a bit lame...desperately dive for the legs and gradually work them to the mat and keep them down...I kind of have to hold my nose and dutifully sing the praises of the Cormier's and Colby's of the MMA world. I appreciate it more when its combined with other skills, like Cormier is a very competent striker, or if they know some slick submissions one they're on the mat, but I don't enjoy watching the wrestling component.

SirKratos · Sep 11, 2019

TapMachine said:
The best base for MMA is the one you specialize in. Single base specialists that add layers of MMA-related skills on top of it are the best, in my opinion.

Of course, the best example would be wrestlers learning to strike.

EDIT: Also, I don't agree with the notion of MMA being the best base for MMA. If you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, you're going to get worked by a specialist with an MMA adapted game.

Fighters with MMA as base aren’t necessarily jack of all trades master of none. Just because the name is ‘Mixed Martial Arts’ doesn’t mean all martial arts skills are distributed equally.

meauneau · Sep 11, 2019

What do we mean by best, "the art whose techniques/strategies results in the most wins in MMA? How do we know it is the art itself and not something else since not every practitioner of the same art becomes a champion or win most fights. It could be a mere correlation that most have a wrestling background in common. As far as we see there have been champions and dominant fighters across all ranges of the fight game. If we isolate every art form and test them in combat isn't BJJ the best? If so, how can wrestling be the best? When Woodly beat Maia it was through strikes, right? Striking is not part of wrestling, so how can wrestling be the best?

One MMA Fan · Sep 11, 2019

I'm gonna bookmark this thread... this is legit solid info and different perspectives that are interesting and come from all angles. More sherbros should read and partake in such pure MMA threads.

Great work at @gono btw for putting this all together my respects sir.

<Kpop775>

One MMA Fan · Sep 11, 2019

sonofjay817 said:
, but on a gut level, wrestling in MMA always strikes me as a bit lame...desperately dive for the legs and gradually work them to the mat and keep them down...I kind of have to hold my nose and dutifully sing the praises of the Cormier's and Colby's of the MMA world.

What I love wrestling.. more precise high level, even good wrestling and most important that advances and does something with the positions.

For me wrestling then boxing and of course you got to sprinkle in some BJJ.

For me if I can only pick 2 disciplines then my ideal fighter is someone with high level wrestling (add in catch wrestling got to do and defend subs) and boxing (learn a leg check, use your footwork and you are golden).

KID Yamamoto · Sep 11, 2019

When people say wrestlers in MMA aswell a lot of them don't wrestle in fights often.

Sure Stipe HAS a college wrestling background but his Golden gloves career is MUCH deeper and he boxes 90% of his opponents.

RightToBareKnuckles · Sep 11, 2019

at work and can't really go through the whole thread, but i still feel that wrestling or high level BJJ is still the best base.

*helps your striking, through confidence that if it goes to the ground you should be fine
*to stop someone from grappling you, you have to get the KO or a nice body shot (liver/solar plexus) which of course is easier said than done. but to stop someone from striking you, you basically have to get close and tie them up, which i think is easier than landing a KO shot

just my two cents

acannxr · Sep 11, 2019

gono btw said:
VI] @gonobtw :

Very informative, great read.

{<redford}

dmwalking · Sep 11, 2019

Non-Single Base (39.58%):
Chuck Liddell (wrestling pedigree)
Quinton Jackson (wrestling pedigree)
Forrest Griffin
Lyoto Machida
Mauricio Rua
Rich Franklin (wrestling pedigree)
Luke Rockhold
Michael Bisping
Robert Whittaker (wrestling pedigree)
Matt Serra
Carlos Condit
Robbie Lawler (wrestling)
Benson Henderson (wrestling)
Eddie Alvarez (wrestling pedigree)
Khabib Nurmagomedov (wrestling pedigree)
Dustin Poirier
Jose Aldo
Renan Barao
Cody Garbrandt (wrestling pedigree)

Wrestling (39.58%):
Brock Lesnar
Shane Carwin
Cain Velasquez
Stipe Miocic
Daniel Cormier
Rashad Evans
Jon Jones
Chris Weidman
Johny Hendricks
Tyron Woodley
Colby Covington
Kamaru Usman
Sean Sherk
Frankie Edgar
Tony Ferguson
Dominick Cruz
TJ Dillashaw
Henry Cejudo
Demetrious Johnson

While it appears that it's pretty even, a common theme is wrestling pedigree. That strikes me as strong evidence of the importance of wrestling and how wrestling can be considered the best base.

It's not a myth. You just disagree based on your opinion. And BJ Penn is still overrated.

gono btw · Sep 11, 2019

dmwalking said:
While it appears that it's pretty even, a common theme is wrestling pedigree. That strikes me as strong evidence of the importance of wrestling and how wrestling can be considered the best base.

It's not a myth. You just disagree based on your opinion. And BJ Penn is still overrated.

Since some 11 posters are involved in this Decons, better @ the poster ya want to talk to

FKA · Sep 11, 2019

Wow

Very solid informative thread it exceeded my expectations @gono btw always delivers.

Great job to all who participated this was cool.

FrontNakedChoke · Sep 11, 2019

Street fighting is the best base for MMA

Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 36] - The Best Base... [SPECIAL EDITION!]

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Pretty Princess

Never out of likes..

Black Belt

Gold Belt

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#1

#1

PREMIUM DYNAMITE

Brown Belt

Silver Belt

Just Bleed Belt

Rounds...

AZ Hotshots/OAK Raiders/That Bellator guy

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