Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 36] - The Best Base... [SPECIAL EDITION!]

[Threetrees]

I found it interesting.. I don't get stuck in this or that answer of it, even the question isn't the main thing for me just pure MMA talk from different people and each coming with their 2 cents on a big component of MMA.

It is fun to read and you get little nuggets and insights that I for one didn't know.

Hey just me tho, sorry you didn't get more out of it but that's okay too happens.

I don't mean that its not interesting, I don't feel like I wasted time reading
Or at least
I mean to say that while the question itself is uninteresting, the responses weren't.

 

[One MMA Fan]

I don't mean that its not interesting, I don't feel like I wasted time reading
Or at least
I mean to say that while the question itself is uninteresting, the responses weren't.

Oh cool it just sounded negative at first reading seems I just got the wrong idea.

 

[Threetrees]

Oh cool it just sounded negative at first reading seems I just got the wrong idea.

From actually reading the thread now, I just get the sense that this is a really meaningless and kind of dumb question.
The responses themselves are interesting though.

You're right

 

[A.S. Deep]

My man, lost a bet or what happened.. are you a fan of them horsies ehem.

Haha I'm a fan of them horsies + I thought it'd be funny having this profile pic on a site where everyone claims to be 7ft tall, jacked, MMA experts who only bang 10s.

 

[One MMA Fan]

Haha I'm a fan of them horsies + I thought it'd be funny having this profile pic on a site where everyone claims to be 7ft tall, jacked, MMA experts who only bang 10s.

From time to time I accept 9's too..

Ok man you do you I'll still give you a hug

 

[FKA]

Sambo is the best base for mma.

From the jump you are doing cross training in striking,clinchwork,and groundgame.

The base you get is essentially mma 101 it allows you to focus on what art suits you as well as being able to defend well against all other arts .You see "sambo" fighters often have different styles of fighting, while some are grappling heavy there are also striking specialists but all of them have a well rounded game.

 

[meauneau]

Sambo is the best base for mma.

From the jump you are doing cross training in striking,clinchwork,and groundgame.

The base you get is essentially mma 101 it allows you to focus on what art suits you as well as being able to defend well against all other arts .You see "sambo" fighters often have different styles of fighting, while some are grappling heavy there are also striking specialists but all of them have a well rounded game.

So basically MMA is the best base for MMA.

 

[TR1]

Rare thread on sherdog thats always interesting.

 

[FKA]

So basically MMA is the best base for MMA.

Nope sambo

Cuz basically it has all the assets to best other martial arts built in from day one.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

IVC, especially, was keen on buildin´ a truly international roster (1st African there!: boxer Kizongi Vita from Congo...).
Many Americans, especially wrestlers, made the transition:
some 17 fighters with [primarily] wrestling background had 28 fights there...

IVC:
Gary Myers x 2
Branden Lee Hinkle x 2
Adrian Serrano x 2
John "The Saint" Renken x 2
Jason Godsey [Pancrase / Wrestling] x 2
Brian Raynei [Pancrase / Wrestling]
Lane Andrews [KB / Wrestling]
Brian Keck
John Gnap
Sean Bormet
Gerald Taylor
Darrel Gholar
Aaron Sullivan
Eugene Jackson
Mike Van Arsdale
Mike Van Arsdale x 3
Alex Stiebling [Wrestling/MT] x 4
Beast Severn
...with some limited results:

8 Wins - 20 Losses

Different Fight Configuration [Ring/Vale Tudo rules etc] obviously explains this relative lack of success.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/
And it´s not like they were 'trapped' by some high level submission artists.
IVC´s Brazilian roster was actually pretty balanced: BJJ / Luta Livre / MT (Sergio Baratelli, IVC´s promotor, was actually a former Kickboxer from the Vale Tudo era...).
Wrestlin´ was then dominatin´in the US, but outside...different story...

You can't site that the different configuration & rule set as being the reason for the wrestlers not doing well in the IVC when that org had mostly sub-par wrestlers competing who didn't do that well in MMA anywhere else. iow.... If they didn't do well under ANY rule set, then it's insignificant whether they also failed under the IVC rule set. Agreed?

All the great wrestlers were over at the UFC & Pride.

For reference... Branden Lee Hinkle got $1,000 & his travel paid for to fight for the IVC. & it was his first MMA fight ever! Any real wrestler that had made a solid transition to MMA would've been rocking 8k to show & 8k to win in the UFC if they could have.

Another problem I have with that comparison list you made, is that you're not mentioning which style of wrestling they did. Looks to me like one of your examples is a WWE style wrestler... lol. Further... Freestyle is an absolutely horrible base for MMA because the ref saves you. Catch wrestling is better but has a greater focus on submissions.

The real comparison would be legit Collegiate wrestlers & how they did. Even that gets skewed though because not everyone can transition to MMA. In your list, you have these guys with mid to low tier MMA records listed with mostly unknown names on their win list. I will restate this main point as being that If they didn't do that well in MMA anywhere else under any other rule sets, then you can't proclaim that it was the rule set of IVC that made them lose there.

Lets go down your list & look at the top 5 on your "losers list." They all lost twice in IVC. We'll check out the person's wrestling credentials to make sure we're talking about legit high level wrestlers... & also check their MMA records to make sure they were doing well at a high enough level outside of IVC to make a fair comparison.

Spoiler: Looking closer at the Top loser wrestlers on your list

Note: by "significant wins" I'm looking at their MMA record to see if they were winning at a high level.

14 Wins/10 Loses - x0 significant wins ... (Gary Myers x 2 losses in IVC) - I couldn't find much info on Gary's wrestling background, but since he didn't go to college... we can't count him as a good example, because that's where the real competition is. High School wrestling background is good for sure, but not good enough for this convo. His MMA record is sub-par against sub-par competition anyway... so he doesn't count in this comparison.

17/11 - x2 fairly significant wins .... (Branden Lee Hinkle x 2 losses) - two-time NCAA Division II Champion - This is a perfect example of what we need for great collegiate experience. However Brandon has always been a mid level MMA guy. Lets also recognize that IVC was his very first pro fight ever... & it was against a prime Ebeneezer Braga who was at his 12th pro fight at the time. (his main significant MMA win was Jorge Rivera's pro debut & I'm hesitant to give him significant credit for the Travis Fulton win, but you gotta give it to Fulton for the volume of wins against no names even though he fell short against the best.) Hinkle wasn't ever a top teir guy in MMA & IVC was his Pro debut, so how much weight can we give him that he lost in IVC? not much imo.

56/29 - x2 ... Adrian Serrano x 2 (one of these IVC losses was to fooking prime Wanderlei Silva!) I found no significant wrestling experience in his limited available data. Was he just a professional wrestler... like WWE stuff. We obviously can't add WWE wrestling experience to this equation. Where did you get this list of wrestlers that competed in IVC?

18/28 - x0 - Pastor John "The Saint" Renken x 2 - Early training record wasn't accessible, but it looks like he got out of high school & went to the military. So this is not a good example of someone who was a master level wrestler, as he would've pursued it further after high school. Plus his MMA record is 18 wins to 28 losses... with zero significant wins... so even if he does have a legit wrestling background, this is not a good example of a wrestler who failed simply because of the IVC rule set.

16/16 - x1 - Jason Godsey [Pancrase / Wrestling] x 2 - He's 245 & his only significant win was the lighter Jeremy Horn who fought 2 divisions down in weight. He was a catch wrestler/freestyle wrestler as best as I can tell, but I couldn't find any information on how extensive that training was. However, the MMA record just doesn't justify serious comparison to how wrestlers did under a different rule set. Like many of these examples... He didn't do well under ANY RULE SET.

I don't have time to go down the whole list, but a couple thingz stick out in the winners list you made. Dan Severn (obviously legit MMA & wrestling creds won in the IVC) &...

Mike Van Arsdale with 3 IVC wins in the same night & the kind of wrestling creds that are unquestionably world class where you can make a legit comparison to IVC rules. His MMA record was pretty bad but he crushed it in IVC.

Spoiler: Mike van arsdale's wrestling creds

Born and raised in Waterloo, Iowa, van Arsdale has a very decorated background in wrestling. He attended Waterloo West High School, and compiled a record of 20-6 as a sophomore, went 28-2 while also winning a state championship as a junior, and then went 27-3 while being a state-runner up in his senior year. Van Arsdale then won a Junior National title and was a Junior World runner-up title before continuing his career in college at Iowa State University. A first-team freshman All-American, van Arsdale placed sixth in the NCAA tournament as a sophomore (1985) and placed third in his junior season (1986). As a senior, he was the 1988 NCAA Division 1 collegiate wrestling champion at 167 lb (76 kg). After college, van Arsdale won a World Cup Championship in 1991, a CISM (military) World Championship, was a two-time Olympic alternate, and a six-time member of the National Freestyle Wrestling team. van Arsdale was inducted into the Iowa Wrestling Hall of Fame in 2011.[1]

I think you had good intentions with your statement about wrestlers using a different MMA rule set in IVC... but I don't think your comparisons are fair to make such a bold & definitive statement as to imply that it was the ruleset that made the wrestlers not do very well. It's just not a fair comparison when we look a little closer. As mentioned... there's a lot more to the story than your list implies at a glance.

I literally spent hours just trying to look into the top 5 & give your pov a fair shake... but I think I debunked that myth.

Wrestlin´ was then dominatin´in the US, but outside...different story...

It's because they were being paid more in the USA & so obviously the better wrestlers who could get that pay were getting paid 8k/8k & higher in the UFC while IVC was offering 1k plus travel for lower tier fighters with lesser experience.

I haven't been through your whole breakdown yet because I got hung up on this, but I'll get to it as time allows.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

When I said in isolation I meant putting pure wrestlers out of a college VS pure BJJ guys out of Brazil, make them fight and see who comes out victorious. I think we have enough data (outside of MMA), showing that the BJJ guy will get the submission. Again, to make it clear, this is not MMA fighters but pure practitioners in a fight. How many pure wrestlers have won ADCC?

I understand you were saying that. But you seem to be missing that you're the only one making that point. We all get it & you're absolutely right. However, lets take your final statement about the ADCC & ask how many pure BJJ guys get invited to the olympics for wrestling. Do you see how different the topic of this thread is from what you're talking about? We're asking "when you mix them together in MMA" which style makes the best base?

I have to disagree in part. MMA fighters don't just learn to negate BJJ, they add it to their repertoire of fighting skills. The way Khabib takes the back and chokes people, the kimuras, the triangles, ie., the finishes, all of these are techniques one learns in BJJ. What we see then is that if BJJ is missing, then the wrestler has a much lower chance of success in MMA, mainly defensively speaking. Wrestlers learn BJJ mainly to negate it but also as a useful addition to their fighting skills. So BJJ is a necessary as wrestling in MMA I would say.

Again, we're not disagreeing. In fact this was a part of my pov as well. Let me try & say the same thing I said before in different words that might show you the distinction I'm making.

Lets take a world class Collegiate wrestler as person 1
lets take a world class BJJ guy as person 2

They both have to learn how to negate the other person's strengths in order to survive in the present day MMA environment. The difference between what I'm saying & what you're saying is that I'm saying the wrestler will be able to negate the BJJ of person 2 before person 2 can be able to negate the wrestling of person 1... & it's by a very long margin of time... like many years more.

Obviously, both will catch each other in their games from time to time, but in general "Anti-BJJ" is much quicker to develop for a world class wrestler than stellare TDD & the ability to get up from under that fooker positioning his weight just perfectly.

I agree, wrestling allowed him to keep it standing, but merely keeping it standing is not enough, you need to score and he scored with strikes. Here we have an instance analogous to that of wrestlers learning BJJ to negate it. Strikers learn wrestling to negate it, but not necessarily to use it offensively. Wrestlers learn BJJ to negate it, but not necessarily to use it offensively. In Woodley VS Maia we see the use of anti wrestling. But the fight was won via striking. Wrestling gives you the control of where the fight goes, but so does BJJ. The threat of being submitted forces the best wrestlers to avoid using offensive wrestling.

Well yeah, on that last statement, but Woodley won.

I agree, it does influence the way the striker behaves. A striker has to adapt to the strengths of his opponent, he will have to make adjustments to better defend against the wrestler's offence. The same could be said about a wrestler vs a high level BJJ guy. The wrestler will not use his wrestling offensively because of the threat of submissions and will be forced to keep it standing. If he decides to shoot he has to adapt to the guillotine threats and other submissions once they hit the ground. Even a boxer has to adapt when he fights a kickboxer. So we see strikers influenced by wrestlers and wrestlers influenced by BJJ guys and so on.

Yes, again we're saying the same thing... but the wrestlers are winning. Big difference. That's why wrestling is the better base.

in MMA we see that wrestling, striking and submissions/grappling are intertwined and very difficult to isolate, so the question which is the best base is not a very good question and assumes that these a forms or distances can be issolated such that there is no influence of one on the other, which is clearly false.

The writting's on the wall my friend. All the champs are wrestlers at heart & all the BJJ based people do well but fall short of the top spots over & over.

That doesn't make this a dumb question. I think it shows without a doubt if you want to raise your kid to be a fighter in MMA, you put him into scholastic/collegieate wrestling program at a ripe young age & then teach him BJJ & kickboxing on the side.

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

But but but -guerilla- told me freestyle is the best base, and Soviet Bloc Freestyle wrestlers are taking over!!!1!

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

I think it shows without a doubt if you want to raise your kid to be a fighter in MMA, you put him into scholastic/collegieate wrestling program at a ripe young age & then teach him BJJ & kickboxing on the side.

Gotta do scholastic wrestling, another grappling style for clinch/subs, and striking. Spot on, man.

 

[gono btw]

You can't site that the different configuration & rule set as being the reason for the wrestlers not doing well in the IVC when that org had mostly sub-par wrestlers competing who didn't do that well in MMA anywhere else. iow.... If they didn't do well under ANY rule set, then it's insignificant whether they also failed under the IVC rule set. Agreed?

All the great wrestlers were over at the UFC & Pride.

For reference... Branden Lee Hinkle got $1,000 & his travel paid for to fight for the IVC. & it was his first MMA fight ever! Any real wrestler that had made a solid transition to MMA would've been rocking 8k to show & 8k to win in the UFC if they could have.

Another problem I have with that comparison list you made, is that you're not mentioning which style of wrestling they did. Looks to me like one of your examples is a WWE style wrestler... lol. Further... Freestyle is an absolutely horrible base for MMA because the ref saves you. Catch wrestling is better but has a greater focus on submissions.

The real comparison would be legit Collegiate wrestlers & how they did. Even that gets skewed though because not everyone can transition to MMA. In your list, you have these guys with mid to low tier MMA records listed with mostly unknown names on their win list. I will restate this main point as being that If they didn't do that well in MMA anywhere else under any other rule sets, then you can't proclaim that it was the rule set of IVC that made them lose there.

Lets go down your list & look at the top 5 on your "losers list." They all lost twice in IVC. We'll check out the person's wrestling credentials to make sure we're talking about legit high level wrestlers... & also check their MMA records to make sure they were doing well at a high enough level outside of IVC to make a fair comparison.

Spoiler: Looking closer at the Top loser wrestlers on your list

Note: by "significant wins" I'm looking at their MMA record to see if they were winning at a high level.

14 Wins/10 Loses - x0 significant wins ... (Gary Myers x 2 losses in IVC) - I couldn't find much info on Gary's wrestling background, but since he didn't go to college... we can't count him as a good example, because that's where the real competition is. High School wrestling background is good for sure, but not good enough for this convo. His MMA record is sub-par against sub-par competition anyway... so he doesn't count in this comparison.

17/11 - x2 fairly significant wins .... (Branden Lee Hinkle x 2 losses) - two-time NCAA Division II Champion - This is a perfect example of what we need for great collegiate experience. However Brandon has always been a mid level MMA guy. Lets also recognize that IVC was his very first pro fight ever... & it was against a prime Ebeneezer Braga who was at his 12th pro fight at the time. (his main significant MMA win was Jorge Rivera's pro debut & I'm hesitant to give him significant credit for the Travis Fulton win, but you gotta give it to Fulton for the volume of wins against no names even though he fell short against the best.) Hinkle wasn't ever a top teir guy in MMA & IVC was his Pro debut, so how much weight can we give him that he lost in IVC? not much imo.

56/29 - x2 ... Adrian Serrano x 2 (one of these IVC losses was to fooking prime Wanderlei Silva!) I found no significant wrestling experience in his limited available data. Was he just a professional wrestler... like WWE stuff. We obviously can't add WWE wrestling experience to this equation. Where did you get this list of wrestlers that competed in IVC?

18/28 - x0 - Pastor John "The Saint" Renken x 2 - Early training record wasn't accessible, but it looks like he got out of high school & went to the military. So this is not a good example of someone who was a master level wrestler, as he would've pursued it further after high school. Plus his MMA record is 18 wins to 28 losses... with zero significant wins... so even if he does have a legit wrestling background, this is not a good example of a wrestler who failed simply because of the IVC rule set.

16/16 - x1 - Jason Godsey [Pancrase / Wrestling] x 2 - He's 245 & his only significant win was the lighter Jeremy Horn who fought 2 divisions down in weight. He was a catch wrestler/freestyle wrestler as best as I can tell, but I couldn't find any information on how extensive that training was. However, the MMA record just doesn't justify serious comparison to how wrestlers did under a different rule set. Like many of these examples... He didn't do well under ANY RULE SET.

I don't have time to go down the whole list, but a couple thingz stick out in the winners list you made. Dan Severn (obviously legit MMA & wrestling creds won in the IVC) &...

Mike Van Arsdale with 3 IVC wins in the same night & the kind of wrestling creds that are unquestionably world class where you can make a legit comparison to IVC rules. His MMA record was pretty bad but he crushed it in IVC.

Spoiler: Mike van arsdale's wrestling creds

Born and raised in Waterloo, Iowa, van Arsdale has a very decorated background in wrestling. He attended Waterloo West High School, and compiled a record of 20-6 as a sophomore, went 28-2 while also winning a state championship as a junior, and then went 27-3 while being a state-runner up in his senior year. Van Arsdale then won a Junior National title and was a Junior World runner-up title before continuing his career in college at Iowa State University. A first-team freshman All-American, van Arsdale placed sixth in the NCAA tournament as a sophomore (1985) and placed third in his junior season (1986). As a senior, he was the 1988 NCAA Division 1 collegiate wrestling champion at 167 lb (76 kg). After college, van Arsdale won a World Cup Championship in 1991, a CISM (military) World Championship, was a two-time Olympic alternate, and a six-time member of the National Freestyle Wrestling team. van Arsdale was inducted into the Iowa Wrestling Hall of Fame in 2011.[1]

I think you had good intentions with your statement about wrestlers using a different MMA rule set in IVC... but I don't think your comparisons are fair to make such a bold & definitive statement as to imply that it was the ruleset that made the wrestlers not do very well. It's just not a fair comparison when we look a little closer. As mentioned... there's a lot more to the story than your list implies at a glance.

I literally spent hours just trying to look into the top 5 & give your pov a fair shake... but I think I debunked that myth.

It's because they were being paid more in the USA & so obviously the better wrestlers who could get that pay were getting paid 8k/8k & higher in the UFC while IVC was offering 1k plus travel for lower tier fighters with lesser experience.

I haven't been through your whole breakdown yet because I got hung up on this, but I'll get to it as time allows.

hmmmm...yeah...

1st of all, Im not sure ya did understand that my assessment is definitely not a 'hardcore' stance ...... and obviously not sure about what myth ya "debunked"... Jus´helax, mate...

Anyway, Gono´s assessment is definitely not about disqualifyin´ wrestling, or any skill set for that matter.
I suggest ya read again & understand the subtle interaction between skill set & the 3 essential parameters.

About IVC: I chose IVC coz, as I said, Sergio Baratelli was indeed interested in projectin´ his Org. & matchin´ American wrestlers & local skill sets.

> IVC : The Winners:
1st, a lil bit of context:
Beast [1 W], obviously past his physical prime (39 yrs old), sure..but... was 46 lbs heavier
Beast = 269 lbs
Ebenezer = 222 lbs

Braga is a career LHW.

Note:some kind of controversy here, accordin´2 Braga (special clause in Beast´s contract... I´ll try to assess it one day.)

2nd: Van Arsdale [3 W-1 L]: [211 lbs/6´2]
It actually hardly helps your narrative, but, context is everythin´, indeed.

1- vs Wand : destroyed.

2- vs Francisco Nonato [227 lbs/6´2]
Nonato was either [matter of timin´] only a Purple Belt, or a recent Brown Belt in BJJ (3rd in World Cup 1997 - Purple Belt)
Consequently, in terms of 'credentials' & experience, quite a mismatch...
[See how Van Arsdale handled Verissimo a few years later @ The Contenders 2000.]

3- vs Marcelo Barbosa: really undersized, chubby [220 lbs/5´8]
Jus´to give ya some context & perspective, 11 months later, @ IVC 8, he had already slimmed down to...196 lbs.

4- vs Dario Amorim:[213 lbs/6´]
Hence, that was a Tournament, Final Fight of the night:
Amorim had spent 33 mns (2 fights) in the ring vs 9mn for Van Arsdale
(one of these 2 fights: vs Bob Gilstrap, 30mns, who had gone the distance against Josh Barnett some 6 months earlier
@ UFCF - Road to the Championships 1)

His skill set: Luta Livre Budokan / MT
He was a MT Champ in Rio de Janeiro.

Again, context: ya have to read between the lines here.
He started his Vale Tudo career in that IVC Tournament.
What does it [probably] mean?
That, jus´like Ebenezer Braga (MT background too, who transitioned to Vale Tudo via Luta Livre Budokan), after his MT run, he probably went to the Luta Livre Budokan gym, had some basic lessons on the ground game, and then was called (probably on short notice) to fight @ IVC. (this is basically how Braga started his career with Master Luis Alves)

In short: this is how Van Arsdale "crushed it in IVC" as ya said...

3rd: Stiebling [4 W] had Wrestling & MT as backgrounds, but in terms of gameplan & mindset, he was arguably a striker.
+ he had the easier bracket [MW one, not the heavier one]


> IVC : The Losers:

1st of all, your narrative "to make sure we're talking about legit high level wrestlers." is inappropriate here.
This is not about individuals, but rather about a skill set, and by extension. its projection/execution as a mindset or gameplan.
The fact that a high level wrassler like [super-roided] Kerr dominated in WVC (mostly against undersized opponents, tho...) has lil relevance.
What is at stakes here: definitely not the elite of a generation, but the vast majority.
The [relative] success of 2-3 elite competitors is hardly relevant here.

Meanwhile, your other misunderstandin´here: those wrasslers were not 'mismatched' in IVC, for instance.
Low pay or not, rookies or not, 'elite' or not, their opponents were in the very same... situation (actually, potentially worse tbh...)

If we listen to your narrative, they were all limited wrasslers matched up against elite/experienced BJJ, Luta Livre or MT opponents.
Well, that was simply not true.

Overall, why did I also choose this Org.?
Coz in a completely different Fight Configuration & Scorin´System [Pancrase or Rings or Pride], that lack of dominance would have been too easy to highlight.
More: those who did have success in Different Fight Configurations, had to adapt their skill set, and that [relative] success was hardly based on their original background.

 

[Oooxente]

XI] @Typrune Goatley :

Spoiler

For much of the last century, a burning question has remained: which martial art is the best or most effective? This was the premise of UFC 1 in 1993. This was also the dillema of Shooto fighters in Japan in the 1980's and 1990's, in how they should organize their training time. The Gracies defended their style of Jiu Jitsu as well as their family name against a plethora of challengers in the Vale Tudo era in Brazil dating back to the 1930's. These types of competitions stretch all the way back to at least ancient Greek or Roman times, when boxers, wrestlers and Pankration fighters were matched up with one another in violent battles. Even today in 2019 the question still remains: what is the best combat base for Mixed Martial Arts? Many believe the answer is still Wrestling. After all, many of the current champions come from wrestling backgrounds and we have also seen many champions and greats of the past who were also wrestlers. However, we have also seen champions and contenders from all fighting origins: fighters with bases in Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, BJJ, Judo and Sambo. There are many factors that determine if a wrestler (or fighter of any background) will be successful in an MMA setting


1. Individual
Obviously, a career trajectory could be determined by the fighter's individual aptitude for the sport of MMA. As an elite athlete, are they entering the sport to collect quick paychecks or are they truly training to be one of the best in the world? We have seen many world class wrestlers such as Eldar, Kevin Jackson and others enter MMA competition for only a brief period. They may seem successful at first relying on their wrestling and elite athletic abilities but after experiencing a few losses or adversity we have seen them quit the sport. This is not exclusive to wrestlers obviously, as we have seen one of the greatest submission grapplers of all time, Marcelo Garcia, fight in only one MMA bout and never again. On the flip side is somebody like Yoel Romero, an Olympian who suffered a brutal KO loss early in his career, but persevered and continued on fighting and eventually reached the top of the sport, fighting in back to back extremely close world title fights.

2. Variation/levels of training
Of course not all wrestlers are created equal and not all are blessed with the same training and experiences. There are many many levels to wrestling, as is the case with all combat sports. How can we generalize wrestlers in an MMA context when the variation in skill is so massive? Some fighters come from youth or high school wrestling programs, some were collegiate wrestlers of varying degrees and some went on to wrestle on the international level. It should come as no surprise that many that competed at the international or Olympic stage have gone on to have great success in MMA. Names like Mark Coleman, Dan Henderson, Daniel Cormier, Henry Cejudo, Yoel Romero come to mind. However, for each of of those names, there are examples of great wrestlers who did not see much success in MMA like Eldar Kurtinzade, Royce Alger and others. We have also seen athletes from the highest levels of kickboxing like Mirko Cro Cop and Mark Hunt were top 5 and top 10 Heavyweights in MMA for many many years. We have also seen BJJ superstars like Fabricio Werdum, Jacare Souza, Demian Maia climb to the top of MMA. It should not come as a surprise that these elite competitors and combat athletes are able to find success in MMA after devoting several years to the sport.

3. Rounding out the rest of their game

Wrestling by itself teaches many important skills that can become useful for a fight such as takedowns, takedown defense, ground control, conditioning, discipline, etc. Some wrestlers can move into MMA and succeed right away due to many of these redeeming qualities, however, the sport of wrestling alone is not a complete fighting system. Take Brock Lesnar for example. In his second MMA fight, he started off strong against Frank Mir, but before long he was caught in a leglock by the submission expert Mir. Perhaps Lesnar worked on his submission defense from that point onward, as we never saw him submitted again in MMA competition. However, his refusal to spar and lack of striking defense was exposed when he fought Cain Velasquez and Alistair Overeem. He was unable to impose his wrestling strategy in those bouts and was stopped with strikes.

A wrestler improving their striking and submission abilities could determine whether their MMA ceiling is closer to someone like Tyron Woodley (who reached the pinnacle of the sport) or will they fail to rise above the level of say someone like Jake Rosholt.

4. Rules of org

Obviously, the rules of the event will affect the performance of the fighter---for better or worse. A fight inside a ring usually favors aggressive strikers as they are able to cut the ring off and corner their opponents whereas a caged enclosure more often than not favors the counter striker, as there is more space to circle away and keep distance. Wrestlers usually fare much better in a cage as they are able to press their opponents against the cage and the fence can also assist in completing takedowns. Overall, there appears to be more stalling and down time in the cage than in the ring, which would favor wrestlers that are looking to win by decision rather than finish (Examples: Colby Covington, Kamaru Usman, George St. Pierre, etc.) Fights inside of a ring take away the stalling against the fence that you see so much in the UFC. In a ring, when two fighters are up against the ropes, there is less stalling and more action. (Proper striking, takedown struggles and evasive maneuvers can actually be deployed instead of somebody being held against a fence and wasting time. If the fighters hit the mat near the edge of the ring and are in danger of falling out, the tradition is usually to restart in the middle of the ring. In this manner, the skills of the combatants becomes more significant in determining the result of the bout, as opposed to two fighters stalling and/or resting against a fence.


A 10 minute round is more likely to result in a finish than a 5 minute round. This is common sense as more time allows a KO or submission to occur. There is also the factor in conditioning and breaking down your opponent over 10 minutes instead of 5. In a 5 minute round, both fighters return to their corners, are allowed 1 minute rest and then the fight is restarted on the feet. This process will lead to fewer finishes. It is completely different in a 10 minute round, where you can break your opponent down and/or have just that extra bit of time to work a finish whether it is by submission or accumulation of strikes. For these reasons, the 5 minute rounds usually favor the wrestler, who can execute takedowns and/or clinch against the cage. They only need to land a little bit of GNP and ride their way to a decision win under the American system. The 10 minute round historically favored devastating strikers and submission artists, who had just a little more time to work for a finish.

There is also the issue of judging criteria. In Japan, the most important criteria was damage and looking to finish the fight. There were far fewer controversial decisions in PRIDE than we see in the UFC today.

For many years in the United States, judges were awarding rounds to wrestlers who would take their opponent down yet do very little with the position once down on the mat. Even if the bottom man was working more toward a finish through submission attempts and/or elbows, the judges would still consistently award the round to the top man. Thankfully, it appears this travesty and misunderstanding is moving toward a brighter future. A very recent high profile fight between Rizin champion Kyoji Horiguchi and Bellator champion Darrion Caldwell put the rulebook under the spotlight. Caldwell wqs able to consistently take Kyoji down and press him against the fence but would not mount any offense or make any attempts to pass guard or improve position. Meanwhile, Horiguchi was constantly throwing strikes from the bottom. As the decision was read, many were fearful the judges would award the victory to the passive wrestler Caldwell, however, it was a pleasant surprise to see the judges were more impressed with Kyoji's offense. This may have been a major breakthrough in American MMA and finally a true "evolution" of the scoring system.

Another important difference in American and Japanese MMA is rounds are scored in the U.S. while in Japan, fights were scored as a whole. It is much easier for fighters and coaches to keep track of rounds won or lost, and this can create "coasting" or stalling at every level. In Japan, a sudden flurry or damage or change of position or submission attempt could alter the judges' perception of the fight. Finishing strong also seemed to be valued as well by the Japanese judges.

And finally we come to the rules on legal/illegal attacks, most notably knees and/or kicks to a downed opponent....


In conclusion, we can see that wrestling is a very important facet of fighting, just like kickboxing, clinch work and submission grappling. A wrestler can become a successful fighter, depending on many factors and circumstances as we explained above. We have seen wrestlers like Randy Couture, Daniel Cormier, Mark Coleman, Henry Cejudo become champions in MMA yet we have also seen BJJ greats like Maia, Jacare and Werdum reach the top of the sport. We have also seen world class kickboxers such as Cro Cop and Hunt highly ranked for many years. Cro Cop especially displayed amazing takedown defense against literally dozens of high level wrestlers and grapplers. We have also seen hybrid fighters like Fedor (Judo, Sambo, Kickboxing) hold the #1 world ranking for 7 years. The greatest Middleweight fighter in MMA history, Anderson Silva, actually had subpar wrestling ability, but was still able to reign over his division for nearly 7 years, due to his deadly striking and submission skills off his back. We have seen Muay Thai/BJJ hybrids like Wanderlei Silva and Shogun Rua becomes World Champions and these men were never competitive wrestlers. The same goes for champions like Rafael Dos Anjos, Junior Dos Santos, Anthony Pettis. They were never great wrestlers yet possessed the all around skills to win their gold. Lyoto Machida reached the pinnacle of the sport and has one of the deepest resumes of all time with his background of Karate, BJJ and Sumo. Jose Aldo, the FW GOAT, had a BJJ and striking background, yet developed arguably the greatest takedown defense in the history of the sport. Ditto for Georges St. Pierre, who came from a karate and BJJ background, yet after extensive training with the Canadian national wrestling team, GSP developed top tier takedown and takedown defense abilities. Of course guys like Cro Cop, GSP and Aldo are outliers and not the norm, yet their names must be mentioned in this discussion for their mastery of takedown defense without a proper wrestling background.


There are currently many UFC champions who were former wrestlers yet we still have guys loke Max Holloway whose main bases appear to be boxing and BJJ. While wrestling is obviously an extremely useful skill, it is not the "end all be all" of fighting, and I say this as a wrestler and fighter myself. There are simply too many factors at play in this sport and once a wrestler dives deep enough into his MMA training and studies to become a proficient well rounded fighter, he is no longer just a wrestler, he is now a Mixed Martial Artist.

Damn
Started to read ,it didnt ended and now my break time is over.

 

[Drugstore Cowboy]

Bruce Lee gave answers on it decades ago. No way is the way.

 

[HHJ]

I don't mean that its not interesting, I don't feel like I wasted time reading
Or at least
I mean to say that while the question itself is uninteresting, the responses weren't.

Anything about wrestling is interesting. This question is UNFAIRLY MALIGNED by you @Threetrees

 

[MileHigher]

The best base for MMA is the one you specialize in. Single base specialists that add layers of MMA-related skills on top of it are the best, in my opinion.

Of course, the best example would be wrestlers learning to strike.

EDIT: Also, I don't agree with the notion of MMA being the best base for MMA. If you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, you're going to get worked by a specialist with an MMA adapted game.

What about Jon Jones? His MMA wrestling might be the best, but was never anything special as an amateur wrestler. Don’t get me wrong, JJ has solid wrestling credentials, but was not a world beater by any stretch of the imagination. He’s outwrestled Olympians in the cage.

No striking background, but is highly effective.

Has submitted much more accomplished grapplers, with very little BJJ experience. He has great submission game and he’s only a blue belt, which is kind of crazy.

 

[HHJ]

What about Jon Jones? His MMA wrestling might be the best, but was never anything special as an amateur wrestler. Don’t get me wrong, JJ has solid wrestling credentials, but was not a world beater by any stretch of the imagination. He’s outwrestled Olympians in the cage.

No striking background, but is highly effective.

Has submitted much more accomplished grapplers, with very little BJJ experience. He has great submission game and he’s only a blue belt, which is kind of crazy.

Pulsing*

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Being a high-level wrestler means you can dictate where the fight takes place

You can use wresting to open up your striking or you can just take the guy down

Your wrestling will also limit your opponents striking due to the takedown threat.