Dear Karate Combat - Why It Doesn't Work

[AndyMaBobs]

Wrote, recorded and edited this in a mad rush. Usually I don't post stuff from my YouTube channel here because I'm a loser and you'd all make fun of me, but I thought this particular video might interest you all.

I'd be interested in your thoughts! Particularly those with more knowledge on karate than me @AshiharaFan, @Azam, @shinkyoku @Tayski

 

[spacetime]

You have to give these guys a chance to adapt to the new format. The level of UFC 1 was terrible compared to today. Knees are in Karate techniques, as are elbows. The sport of point fighting prohibits them but they are still trained.

I still stand by that the little we've seen so far was lackluster, from elite guys! But lets see how it evolves first.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

^ Surprisingly fair point - although I do point out that those strikes that are banned are taught in karate

 

[AshiharaFan]

1). I think Machida's success in using Karate was not only cross training in the fighting techniques that are the bread and butter of most mma fighters (low kicks to the leg, tds, tdd, clinch, etc.) but he adapted his Karate to the full contact fighting style. The techniques themselves did not change, he merely started to train full contact and continuously to transition from point sparring to full contact fighting. I'll get back to this in a minute.

2). The kick below the knees are attempts at foot sweeping the opponent (a staple of point sparring and something that was a favorite of mine when I used to compete in point tournaments as a kid). The difference between the two (as you already know of course) is that low kicks are strategically done over the course of a match in order to weaken the opponent's mobility and the use of the attacked leg. With point sparring style foot sweeps, the goal is to always either disrupt your opponent's balance in while executing a follow through attack (a set up technique) or to try and get him to hit the floor with the technique itself (a direct attack).

3). I'm going to assume (or at least HOPE for their sake) that the organization will continue to evolve and tweak the rule set as they attempt to establish their niche; and I think that's what it boils down to. I believe the promotion wishes to have a unique rule set of their own, with their own look, their own fighting arena, their own emphasis on how to market their product; basically their own niche.

Now CAN this work? It's possible if we look at what I said about Lyoto Machida in my first point. Their fighting styles are still largely based on their point sparring techniques. The techniques themselves aren't as a big of a problem as is their lack of extensive experience in fighting in a full contact and continuous manner.

If I were to be able to get in their ears and offer them any kind of advice the only two suggestions I can think to offer them (at this point) would be:

1). Initiate a training protocol that will acclimate the fighters to full contact and continuous sparring as opposed to the hit - and - stop mentality they obviously have not fully rid themselves of.

2). Allow the fighters AT LEAST 30 seconds on the ground before standing them back up. 5 seconds is not enough time to demonstrate the ability of either fighter to deal with a ground fighting situation. I understand that they want to have their own unique look and may want to put as much distance as they possibly can between their product and UFC style mma in terms of resemblance, but in doing so in the way that they are I think that they are producing an inferior and unentertaining product.

It is my personal opinion that if they institute the above two suggestions and then continue to tweak/evolve their rule set as they go along they may be able to find that sweet spot that they're looking for that will allow them to have a product that is both unique and entertaining as well. Kudo/Daido Juku and (imo) Shidokan Triathlon Competitions have succeeded in finding that sweet spot. Let's see if Karate Combat can somehow manage to do the same.

$0.02

 

[AshiharaFan]

I posted my reply above based on watching only one match of this new fighting format. It was the match between Aghayev and Gustavo. I've since watched the entire event that is available for free viewing on the Karate Combat website. So below are my updated views concerning this new sport.

1). I suggested that they should allow at least 30 seconds of ground fighting. I stand on that. Even more so, I suggest that they either allow at least 30 seconds of groundfighting or don't do any groundfighting at all. I think no groundfighting is better than 5 seconds of frustrating, sloppy and amateurish groundfighting.

2). How I feel about groundfighting I also feel about the clinch. Either allow the fighters enough time to fight in the clinch and make something happen or leave the clinch alone altogether. The reasons are the same as my views on groundwork. It's very, very frustrating to look at something that is half assed. The frustration level will go down if they just avoided the clinch (and groundwork) entirely instead of using their retarded approach to these two aspects of the game.

3). I think they should eliminate the freestyle wrestling td altogether. It was my personal observation of the fights that most times the participants initiated a haphazard looking wrestling td really as a means of ducking a straight punch to the face with no actual intent (or perhaps good enough technique) to fully employ the td. I think what they should do instead is allow only Judo throws and allow points for any Judo throws that are cleanly executed. BUT I think they should still NOT wear gi jackets because, again, haphazard attempts at Judo throws would merely be a means to stall the fight.

Having said all of the above I must say that you cannot please everybody. No matter what rule set any sporting competition implements there will always be some people who will like it and others who will not like it. With that said I'm going to (reluctantly) suggest what this promotion could do to get me as an individual at least marginally interested in their sport. Again, I am almost reluctant to say this and I think I'm going to get chewed out over this but here goes:

I think this new promotion would have a unique product and some entertainment value if they got WTF/Olympic TKD competitors and get them acclimated to:

A). Fighting continuously non stop instead of the attack and stop approach they're used to. This, of course, is only relevant if the promotion itself eliminated the wrestling td which only stalls the fight for the reason I already mentioned and makes for a very sloppy and amateurish looking brawl.

B). Using certain Judo throws that can be executed w/out the aid of a gi jacket. Karo Parisyan is the master at doing this and he proves that this can be done at a very high level.

C). POSSIBLY eliminating punches to the face. For starters, allowing punches to the head/face along with the suggestions I already mentioned would make it look not too different from kickboxing (with Judo throws) or gloved Karate. I understand that Karate Combat wishes to have their own unique approach and look, but the allowance of face punches keeps the WKF oriented fighters in their point sparring mentality and makes the fight look unentertaining and brawlish in an amateur way.

So basically, in a nutshell, I think this would be a little more entertaining if this sport was more or less Olympic TKD with Judo throws and continuous fighting (instead of stop-and-go fighting).

Again, my $0.02

Btw, does my suggested format already exist somewhere?

 

[spacetime]

@AshiharaFan

Olympic TKD is continous and full contact. I agree that they should enter to get more kicking into the mix. It's too one dimensional right now.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I posted my reply above based on watching only one match of this new fighting format. It was the match between Aghayev and Gustavo. I've since watched the entire event that is available for free viewing on the Karate Combat website. So below are my updated views concerning this new sport.

1). I suggested that they should allow at least 30 seconds of ground fighting. I stand on that. Even more so, I suggest that they either allow at least 30 seconds of groundfighting or don't do any groundfighting at all. I think no groundfighting is better than 5 seconds of frustrating, sloppy and amateurish groundfighting.

2). How I feel about groundfighting I also feel about the clinch. Either allow the fighters enough time to fight in the clinch and make something happen or leave the clinch alone altogether. The reasons are the same as my views on groundwork. It's very, very frustrating to look at something that is half assed. The frustration level will go down if they just avoided the clinch (and groundwork) entirely instead of using their retarded approach to these two aspects of the game.

3). I think they should eliminate the freestyle wrestling td altogether. It was my personal observation of the fights that most times the participants initiated a haphazard looking wrestling td really as a means of ducking a straight punch to the face with no actual intent (or perhaps good enough technique) to fully employ the td. I think what they should do instead is allow only Judo throws and allow points for any Judo throws that are cleanly executed. BUT I think they should still NOT wear gi jackets because, again, haphazard attempts at Judo throws would merely be a means to stall the fight.

Having said all of the above I must say that you cannot please everybody. No matter what rule set any sporting competition implements there will always be some people who will like it and others who will not like it. With that said I'm going to (reluctantly) suggest what this promotion could do to get me as an individual at least marginally interested in their sport. Again, I am almost reluctant to say this and I think I'm going to get chewed out over this but here goes:

I think this new promotion would have a unique product and some entertainment value if they got WTF/Olympic TKD competitors and get them acclimated to:

A). Fighting continuously non stop instead of the attack and stop approach they're used to. This, of course, is only relevant if the promotion itself eliminated the wrestling td which only stalls the fight for the reason I already mentioned and makes for a very sloppy and amateurish looking brawl.

B). Using certain Judo throws that can be executed w/out the aid of a gi jacket. Karo Parisyan is the master at doing this and he proves that this can be done at a very high level.

C). POSSIBLY eliminating punches to the face. For starters, allowing punches to the head/face along with the suggestions I already mentioned would make it look not too different from kickboxing (with Judo throws) or gloved Karate. I understand that Karate Combat wishes to have their own unique approach and look, but the allowance of face punches keeps the WKF oriented fighters in their point sparring mentality and makes the fight look unentertaining and brawlish in an amateur way.

So basically, in a nutshell, I think this would be a little more entertaining if this sport was more or less Olympic TKD with Judo throws and continuous fighting (instead of stop-and-go fighting).

Again, my $0.02

Btw, does my suggested format already exist somewhere?

That is a fantastic pair of responses. I love it. I have no idea if the suggested format properly exists the closest I can think is kudo, but thats the closest.

I mean, I personally would have it kind of be like a shootboxing league but allow the full gi, like i mention in the video. I think it's very difficult to make this work - because at the moment I kinda think the point fighting is better.

It's kinda hard because I think we're getting into the sort of thing that no 'real karate' or 'real any martial art' actually exists, they're more just schools for the art of fighting. They want it to LOOK like karate, but the trouble is that karate shouldn't look a certain way, it should be effective

 

[shincheckin]

Wrote, recorded and edited this in a mad rush. Usually I don't post stuff from my YouTube channel here because I'm a loser and you'd all make fun of me, but I thought this particular video might interest you all.

I'd be interested in your thoughts! Particularly those with more knowledge on karate than me @AshiharaFan, @Azam, @shinkyoku @Tayski

i agree with everything you said and I am so glad you covered the bullshit camera angles.......were watching a fight, not a martial arts movie. Given that you are a film editor or soemthing like that i think you said in the video, im sure your well aware that they are basically trying to make the fight more exciting than it is, and that shaky cam, camera angles, cut aways, etc are all "missed" by your average person because your average person is an idiot. This was actually brought up on that brain games show on discovery channel how the average person doesnt notice those type of things.

 

[shincheckin]

in karates defense, chakuriki gym was based off combing boxing with karate. not 100% if it was karate or something else similar but pretty sure it was karate.

 

[Inquisitus]

I agree they're trying to make it like a full contact version of point fighting but point fighting is beautiful precisely because you don't have to hit hard. You can concentrate fully on speed and form. Effective karate in a duelling form is Kyokushin and offshoots, Machida in MMA, or even WCL style continuous sparring. Effective karate as it was meant by the Okinawans is too dangerous as competition. It's a bit disturbing seeing people get stomped or have small joints manipulated, etc.

To make it better, i think MMA or Kudo rules with;
1. Unlimited active standing clinch time with knees, elbows, and standing subs.
2. Allow takedowns with five to thirty seconds of grounded or standing strikes but don't allow submissions.
3. No headbutts

I disagree with @AshiharaFan on the face punches as that rewards building up the body and tanking. But that's because I'm personally not a fan of watching normal Kyokushin style sparring. The TKD w/ Judo idea is great but of course, without the body protection.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

i agree with everything you said and I am so glad you covered the bullshit camera angles.......were watching a fight, not a martial arts movie. Given that you are a film editor or soemthing like that i think you said in the video, im sure your well aware that they are basically trying to make the fight more exciting than it is, and that shaky cam, camera angles, cut aways, etc are all "missed" by your average person because your average person is an idiot. This was actually brought up on that brain games show on discovery channel how the average person doesnt notice those type of things.

I'm actor/director i only do small short films ATM though


as far as i know, Chakuriki was kyokushin and boxing

 

[shincheckin]

I'm actor/director i only do small short films ATM though


as far as i know, Chakuriki was kyokushin and boxing

ok so it was karate!

 

[AshiharaFan]

They want it to LOOK like karate, but the trouble is that karate shouldn't look a certain way, it should be effective

I can agree with this observation. More so, I think they want it to look like clean and aesthetically pleasing Karate with perfectly executed technique as we see it in the movies and video games and they want it to still be effective at the same time.

I disagree with @AshiharaFan on the face punches as that rewards building up the body and tanking. But that's because I'm personally not a fan of watching normal Kyokushin style sparring. The TKD w/ Judo idea is great but of course, without the body protection.

Fair enough. I was already aware and expecting that some people would not agree with that particular suggestion. As I said in my last post fight promotions can't please everybody. Some will like it and some will dislike it. But yes, of course I meant w/out the chest protectors and head gear.

 

[j123]

i agree with everything you said and I am so glad you covered the bullshit camera angles.......were watching a fight, not a martial arts movie. Given that you are a film editor or soemthing like that i think you said in the video...

@AndyMaBobs is a porn script writer for bangbros

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Well technically JKa has produced a succesful full contact fighter because Machida's dad is JKA, and Machida and Thompson both did point tournaments. I agree with your points about the wrestling and lack of knees. As for what you said about K1- knockdown is what was adapted to compete with muay thai. not shotokan or other traditional forms of karate. also hooks arent banned anymore.

 

[shincheckin]

Well technically JKa has produced a succesful full contact fighter because Machida's dad is JKA, and Machida and Thompson both did point tournaments. I agree with your points about the wrestling and lack of knees. As for what you said about K1- knockdown is what was adapted to compete with muay thai. not shotokan or other traditional forms of karate. also hooks arent banned anymore.

just let them do Kudo without head gear. That would be much better IMO.

Glad to see you back Jimmy!

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

just let them do Kudo without head gear. That would be much better IMO.

Glad to see you back Jimmy!

Thanks alot bro! Am I the only one wondering how much these guys are getting paid? Money has allways been what has held back karate imo.

 

[shincheckin]

Thanks alot bro! Am I the only one wondering how much these guys are getting paid? Money has allways been what has held back karate imo.

after watching the fights i was seriously considering trying it they are paid well. When comparing it to WCL, i dont think I could hang with WCL, that was way to "kicky" raymond daniels style fighting, which i thought this would be, which its not at all. Going back to changing this karate thing up, why not have glory or muay thai rules, but a requirement of the fighters to be able to fight on the show, is to be a karate blackbelt, therefore karate is their main style. This way you could have a full on fight, but the fights would still be like a raymond daniels style of fighting since karate is their base and they are black belts. I think something like that would be cool to watch. Than you can gave 2 raymond daniels style guys fighting eachother, rather than raymond daniels fighting a guy like Nieky Holtzen.

 

[Azam]

Wrote, recorded and edited this in a mad rush. Usually I don't post stuff from my YouTube channel here because I'm a loser and you'd all make fun of me, but I thought this particular video might interest you all.

I'd be interested in your thoughts! Particularly those with more knowledge on karate than me @AshiharaFan, @Azam, @shinkyoku @Tayski

Just watched the video now. I think you were pretty fair with your assessment. I did disagree with a few things though:

1) You mentioned that WKF & JKA Karate doesn't produce fighters adept at real fighting. I partially disagree with this. I think it's very problematic to come away with that conclusion if you're basing it off watching Karate Combat. It's a new unfamiliar rule set for most of those competing. I think in general that's a problematic assessment. I think the JKA & even the WKF does produce fighters that are adept at fighting (like Aghayev executing those perfect throws that are part of the shotokan syllabus for example) - you might have a point if we're talking about specific combat sports like kickboxing/MT but I don't think it holds true for MMA (you used this in the Lyoto Machida example).

The JKA & WKF arguably teach the most important parts of fighting: distance control, timing, footwork & speed. The problem like you said is that fights usually don't stop after you score a point - therein lies the problem. This is why I partially agree with you. I would add though that competition rule sets are what make these fighters not so adept (at first) but I will stress that you could apply the same to kickboxing or MT (if you're drawing a comparison between MMA or kickboxing/MT like you did with Karate & MMA). If you're drawing comparisons you can say the same for almost all striking arts including boxing, kickboxing or MT - they each have their gaps. My point being is we don't necessarily use that reasoning to change boxing, kickboxing or MT. I think in this case it depends on what the organizers want - what their goal is. I think it's hard to draw conclusions from combat sports - I mean if it was a self defense scenario and you couldn't hit the guy - I'd say he's pretty adept at fighting. If you could clarify what you meant - it might help me understand where you are coming from, as their might be something that I've overlooked.


2) You mentioned Lyoto Machida in MMA. I agree that he's able to adapt his Karate to real fighting precisely because he's able to take techniques/styles/applications outside of Karate - to fill the areas that his Karate training hasn't prepared him for. I will add though that his approach was pretty much still from the shotokan hand book. For most of his career he's avoided inside fighting - what has allowed him to do so are applications/techniques found in Karate (knees & distance control) and outside of it (clinch, under/over, framing etc). I'd add as well that the vast chunk of his striking repertoire is from the JKA shotokan handbook - his footwork, combinations, trips/throws, distance control, sense of timing etc - the reason I mention this is because of what you said earlier that JKA & WKF doesn't produce fighters adept at real fighting. This is why I disagreed because Machida is adept with the stuff he has learnt from JKA Karate - he applies it to real fighting. Any JKA or WKF fighter can - it involves sparring full contact though & adapting your tool-set to deal with the new competition rule set.


3) The last part where you said that point fighting Karate techniques/rule-set are archaic & don't work for modern fighting - huge disagreement here lol.

The fundamentals of point fighting transfer to every combat sport. This is why there are such a multitude of top tier MMA fighters with point fighting backgrounds. A lot of these point fighters still make use of the same stance, same combinations, same distance control, same footwork etc in MMA. IMHO I think point fighting transfers better to MMA than knockdown karate. Distance control, timing & speed are hallmarks of point fighting - these are important fundamentals in fighting period. If I had to choose between point fighting or knockdown karate for MMA - I'd hands down pick point fighting.

I think trying to compare Karate to K1 or kickboxing is the problem. Karate doesn't have to become kickboxing or MT to be effective. What it does need is a rule set that is more realistic than the one it currently has & that can make use of all the tools available in the Karate handbook.

 

[Azam]

@AndyMaBobs

Kudo is far from perfect too and I don't personally think Karate Combat should go the Kudo route. I do think they should stop the resets and allow the fight to play out. Stay with the traditional camera angle for combat sports. Remove the ground & pound rule and make fighters stand up (it's difficult to enforce 5 seconds gnp).

The hooks issue I'm not sure about. It depends on what they want from this rule set. I'd argue most people in this thread would probably break their hands from throwing a hook without gloves on - so is it that bad that it isn't included in Karate Combat (this coming from a guy who loves hooks). I'd say add low kicks & knees. Elbows should probably be left out for the sake of cuts/gashes.

I'd also say make them wear the gi and allow the gi to be manipulated - so there is an avenue for uke (parries/holds) to be used in the rule set.

I don't think it needs to be kickboxing or MT to be effective.