Daido Juku/Kudo vs. Sabaki

[AshiharaFan]

I like them both (Kudo tournaments and the Sabaki Challenge). But I would like to hear from everyone else about two things concerning these two fighting formats;

Which one is more Badass? And which one do you think has a better physical and mental transfer to street fighting?

 

[FierceRedBelt]

I'm pretty sure Daido Juku has a much larger following in the eastern block states. And it allows punches to the head but the gear is full on crash suit. I'd say from a global perspective this is the better Kyokushin offshoot.

Isn't the Sabaki open pretty much dead at this point? It was a pretty cool idea but essentially too little too late when you have MMA knocking at the door.

 

[shinkyoku]

I'm pretty sure Daido Juku has a much larger following in the eastern block states. And it allows punches to the head but the gear is full on crash suit. I'd say from a global perspective this is the better Kyokushin offshoot.

Isn't the Sabaki open pretty much dead at this point? It was a pretty cool idea but essentially too little too late when you have MMA knocking at the door.

You are thinking of the sabaki challenge arranged by Enshin karate in Denver (and it is still going, but it is not as big as it once were).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuIB2Zbd5Y0
but it is no longer the only enshin karate "sabaki Challenge". Here is a Enshin karate Sabaki challenge in Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MazAh1OsP7Y

Ashihara karate (from which enshin splintered out, back in 1988) has its own Sabaki tournaments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4T4bOfriw
Although they do not call it Sabaki challenge since a few years, as it has developed into the world Sabaki championship
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Gm36rV9cs

There is not really that much difference between the two rulesets used in the two styles. Enshin Sabaki allows a bit longer grab-hold than Ashihara.
Enshin sticks to the halfpoints/fullpoint system from kyokushin (with a full point = win, and a good throw with followup scored as a half point). Enshin took the concept and made it more messy by having the win at 7 points, with knockdowns scoring 4 points and sweeps scoring 1 point, and a good throw(with follow-up) scoring 3 points (and 2 points without followup) -or something like that, I forget the specifics.


Basically both are just minor variations of kyokushin (which both the founder of ashihara, and his student who would later found Enshin, trained together until 1980) with one handed grabs allowed, and throws scored for.
In kyokushin you can get half a point for a sweep with follow-up, but since you are not allowed to grab the opponent, throwing is hard (and I have never actually SEEN a sweep with follow-up getting rewarded with a point score, even if it is in the rules).
Sorry, long rant on minor technicalities.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Isn't the Sabaki open pretty much dead at this point? It was a pretty cool idea but essentially too little too late when you have MMA knocking at the door.

From strictly a spectator sport POV I agree with you. But I am more speaking from the perspective of the combatants who participate in the two fighting styles/competitions.

So from THAT aforementioned perspective I'd say that Kudo is a little better than The Sabaki Challenge when the pro's of each are weighed against the con's of each. I'm sure we'd all agree that each has it's pro's and it's con's.

Daido Juku/Kudo

Pro's:
- Punches to the head allowed
- Space helmet to keep the participants' faces intact
- Throws and takedowns allowed
- Ground fighting and grappling
- Time limit on the ground (Yes, this is a pro in my book :icon_chee )
- Alot of times the matches resemble an outright street brawl (again, a pro to me)

Con's:
- The Helmet tends to make an aggressive fighter a little too aggressive to the point he's somewhat reckless and gives little no thought or effort to defense
- Many of the competitors are not adequately trained in Judo Nage waza and because of that I have witnessed some incorrect and partial throws that made me nervous as hell to look at. Someone can end up with their neck broken with that stuff

Sabaki Challenge

Pro's:
- Judo Throws allowed
- No bare knuckle punches to the face

Con's:
- No ground work
- No face punching allowed (I know it's a pro AND a con. Essentially a double edged sword)
- Although face punches are not allowed shit happens. Especially if you are fighting someone who normally trains and is used to face punching. In a heated exchange that person may absent mindedly forget the rules and go back to "Sock you in ya face" mode and next thing you know the other person has a shiner or missing teeth or broken jaw or broken nose or the mother of all gashes on his face or all of the above.

I think both combat sports are badass but I like Daido Juku/Kudo better since it allows a fuller range of combat skills while still being relatively safe compared to other combat sports that are more limiting and (ironically) less safe. I also prefer to watch Kudo over UFC and if given the opportunity to train and spar in one fashion or the other between MMA and Daido Juku, I would easily choose Daido Juku. But that's just me and in no way am I suggesting that my view on that aspect is gospel.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I also think a Daido Juku fighter would probably adapt to a street brawl and be able to use "some" of his skills in a street brawl better than a strict Kyokushin (or offshoot) fighter.

 

[Tayski]

I like them both (Kudo tournaments and the Sabaki Challenge). But I would like to hear from everyone else about two things concerning these two fighting formats;

Which one is more Badass? And which one do you think has a better physical and mental transfer to street fighting?

there's not one more "badass". Kudo has face/head punches and headbutts, but a helmet and gloves. Sabaki doesn't have face/head punches or headbutts, but there's no glove which makes body shots much harder on the body, and also no helmet so kicks and knees to the head also do more damage.

For the street, both will make you tough physically and mentally. Kudo maybe has more of that street brawl style to it though.

 

[AshiharaFan]

there's not one more "badass". Kudo has face/head punches and headbutts, but a helmet and gloves. Sabaki doesn't have face/head punches or headbutts, but there's no glove which makes body shots much harder on the body, and also no helmet so kicks and knees to the head also do more damage.

For the street, both will make you tough physically and mentally. Kudo maybe has more of that street brawl style to it though.

No one can categorically say that one is more badass than the other and it be accepted as fact or gospel. However, there will always be opinions and preferences when the two are looked at and compared.

To me they are BOTH badass. They are both rough and tumble combat sports and neither one is for the faint of heart.

I won't say that Daido Juku/Kudo is more badass than Sabaki or similar knockdown Karate competitions, but I do like Daido Juku more than traditional knockdown rules competitions as Daido Juku does away with the limitations that knockdown Karate has in place at their tournaments.

If I could only choose one to train and compete in I would go with Kudo/Daido Juku. I would also prefer Shidokan over traditional knockdown Karate for that matter.

 

[AshiharaFan]

And then on the other hand, I just finished watching a couple of bare knuckle, knockdown Karate tournaments from Europe and was reminded of how extremely brutal that shit is. I think only a certain breed can step into that particular arena. Not everybody is built for that.

 

[Harukaze]

If you want crazy bare knuckle knockdown karate, look into FSA Kenshinkan's old series, Chaos MadMax, as well as Pro Karatedo Renmei's Tatsujin series.

(this match used handwraps, yes, but they had other matches that were full bareknuckle as well)

 

[AshiharaFan]

Yeah, they take it to a whole 'nother level, which is a little too far for me.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

How effective is the helmet they wear in kudo at stopping head injuries?

I stopped doing boxing because I was afraid of getting concussions and eye injuries.

 

[Harukaze]

How effective is the helmet they wear in kudo at stopping head injuries?

I stopped doing boxing because I was afraid of getting concussions and eye injuries.

It protects the face well against lacerations, cuts, and fractures, but is about as effective as any other headgear in stopping concussions (i.e. not very haha).

 

[Tayski]

It protects the face well against lacerations, cuts, and fractures, but is about as effective as any other headgear in stopping concussions (i.e. not very haha).

exactly. a shock to the head is still a shock to the head.
it only protects from face injuries (broken nose etc.) and cuts.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Yeah, I've seen people still get their bells rung even with the helmet. But some cushioning is better than no cushioning at all AND you get to keep your face intact.

 

[shinkyoku]

Yeah, I've seen people still get their bells rung even with the helmet. But some cushioning is better than no cushioning at all AND you get to keep your face intact.

Maybe. Maybe not.
If you get a broken nose you stop. Studies have shown that people who spar wearing helmets takes much more punches to the head, simply because they do not get that instant negative effect of a bloody nose or whatever. Helmets takes away a bit of caution.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Maybe. Maybe not.
If you get a broken nose you stop. Studies have shown that people who spar wearing helmets takes much more punches to the head, simply because they do not get that instant negative effect of a bloody nose or whatever. Helmets takes away a bit of caution.

The lack of caution and/or added aggression because of the helmets I have always attributed to the nature of the fighter himself. I have seen plenty of aggressive brawlers with the helmets and I have also seen plenty of cautious, technical fighters with the helmets as well.

For me personally, it isn't about the tournaments or competitions. It's all about the opportunity to train and spar for the sake of self protection as realistically as possible while still being as safe as possible while pursuing that goal. So one of the priorities of training is to learn how to protect your face and head if you find yourself in a one-on-one street fight and I believe that helmet can help to not let things get as bad as they could while one is learning the skills to do just that (that is, protect your face and head).

I can only speak for myself, but I would NEVER allow the helmet to make me throw caution to the wind and senselessly brawl. Protecting my face and dome is a top priority and hopefully the helmet can minimize any possible damage done while I realistically train the skills needed to protect my face and dome.

 

[shinkyoku]

The lack of caution and/or added aggression because of the helmets I have always attributed to the nature of the fighter himself. I have seen plenty of aggressive brawlers with the helmets and I have also seen plenty of cautious, technical fighters with the helmets as well.

For me personally, it isn't about the tournaments or competitions. It's all about the opportunity to train and spar for the sake of self protection as realistically as possible while still being as safe as possible while pursuing that goal. So one of the priorities of training is to learn how to protect your face and head if you find yourself in a one-on-one street fight and I believe that helmet can help to not let things get as bad as they could while one is learning the skills to do just that (that is, protect your face and head).

I can only speak for myself, but I would NEVER allow the helmet to make me throw caution to the wind and senselessly brawl. Protecting my face and dome is a top priority and hopefully the helmet can minimize any possible damage done while I realistically train the skills needed to protect my face and dome.

OK, so you personally would resist the temptation to keep going after the point where you would have stopped it if you had been hit on the face.
How about the fact that a helmets weight makes your neck tired faster? Both when considering defensive head movement and the neck-muscles ability to absorb hits. How about the fact that a helmet on the head makes for a larger target than just the head. And ofcourse a helmet is very bad when grappling, and has been shown to increase possibilities of neck injuries.

Dont get me wrong, I like the helmets in kudo. But you pay for the safety from broken noses and chipped teeth's with a heightened possibility of long term brain trauma (read: punch drunkeness). How MUCH higher? That is the only real question.

 

[AshiharaFan]

OK, so you personally would resist the temptation to keep going after the point where you would have stopped it if you had been hit on the face.

Hell Yeah! I would back the hell up and I might even stop altogether. The point of training is learning to AVOID getting hit on the face and head at all if I can ever attain such a level of skill. I think to keep going and (much worse) aggressively brawl defeats the purpose of learning the different ways to protect the head and face in a one-on-one street confrontation

How about the fact that a helmets weight makes your neck tired faster? Both when considering defensive head movement and the neck-muscles ability to absorb hits. How about the fact that a helmet on the head makes for a larger target than just the head. And ofcourse a helmet is very bad when grappling, and has been shown to increase possibilities of neck injuries.

I was already aware that the helmet on the head makes for a larger target than just the head. Those other two statistics (neck muscles tiring much faster and increase possibilities of neck injuries while grappling) I am not aware of. I would be much obliged if you can help me track down the studies which speak on these things if you already know where to find them. And YES these are definitely causes for concern.

Dont get me wrong, I like the helmets in kudo. But you pay for the safety from broken noses and chipped teeth's with a heightened possibility of long term brain trauma (read: punch drunkeness).

I think you're right. All I can do is reiterate that I personally am not interested in Daido Juku tournaments and competitions and because of that I personally would only spar in this fashion on a very limited basis. I'm talking maybe two or three times a month (if that). I am interested in Budo and self protection more than anything. But a person MUST realistically spar in order to best be prepared for a one-on-one street confrontation and he must do so while finding the right balance between reality and safety and I think this sparring structure fits the bill. But I could never spar like that on a regular ongoing basis. It would be hard for a person to defend himself or even continue to study the Martial Arts if his brain is scrambled like eggs.

How MUCH higher? That is the only real question.

One that I would very much like to know the answer to myself.

 

[shinkyoku]

I was already aware that the helmet on the head makes for a larger target than just the head. Those other two statistics (neck muscles tiring much faster and increase possibilities of neck injuries while grappling) I am not aware of. I would be much obliged if you can help me track down the studies which speak on these things if you already know where to find them. And YES these are definitely causes for concern.

I last read the study when there was a debate about regulating KO in fightsports in sweden. There was talk about requiring headgear for all fightsports and a lot of research was put forward. But that was several years ago, and I have no idea where to link to it today. Especially in english.
I think similar research was done regarding amateur boxing, resulting in amateur boxing in some organizations, like AIBA) recently removing headgear from its major tournaments. But I do not know if their research included the weight problem.

 

[Gambledub]

I think similar research was done regarding amateur boxing, resulting in amateur boxing in some organizations, like AIBA) recently removing headgear from its major tournaments. But I do not know if their research included the weight problem.

I was watching a boxing documentary about concussions/head injuries a month or two ago. The name escapes me now, but they were talking about headgear and how it can increase whiplash like force. Their argument was that the added size of the headgear increases the force on your brain. It makes sense if you think about it, especially headgear with chin padding. Essentially you are artificially extending the chin out, making force applied to the furthermost points far more dangerous due to increased leverage. They claimed that this could cause more bouncing of the brain inside the skull, but it was a documentary so I have no idea how accurate this is, or how accurately i'm paraphrasing this.