Current state of things in advanced no-gi?

[mataleaos]

Question may be asked poorly. I'm trying. For those that train at academies with advanced no-gi programs or people that compete in advanced no-gi divisions. Are the days of people looking for the back and possibly looking for other chokes or far side arm attacks along the way, are those days basically over and done with? At one point that was the advanced no-gi game. Back hunting and staying on the head hunting for chokes on top.

The reason I ask is I've seen several nogi sub only events recently besides EBI. That newaza challenge event, that Show The Art Finishers event, and that Sapateiro event. It looks like the meta game of the foot locks is in full effect. Constant diving on leg entanglements with little attempts to get into passing positions besides some attempts at rolling kimuras or diving onto a guillotine, darce, or arm triangle. Or hell even from top positions back down to leg attacks. So for the most part among the below middleweight especially it looks like lots of spamming leg attacks. Even the name of that Sapateiro event is a foot lock related name.

Is this the no-gi equivalent of when everyone on earth was going for berimbolos in for that 2-3 year stretch in the early 2010s? The school I train at isn't very leg lock heavy at all and we only the learn the very basics so sadly I don't get to learn a lot of the current leg lock stuff going on. I wish I could.

So for anyone that trains at a school that does a lot of nogi, is this sort of what's also going on in classes and being taught across the board?

 

[Uchi Mata]

There are certain schools, Renzo's being most notable, that have gained a lot of notoriety over the last few years by winning high (but not elite) level no-gi sub only events primarily on the strength of their leg lock game. It makes sense for them to play in this way because they have an advantage in this realm over their competition as their understanding of the leg lock game is beyond most peoples'. I would expect that as complex leg locking systems become more widespread that you'll see fewer people relying exclusively on that game and more of a mix between wrestling heavy top games, guard sweeping back attacking games, and leg entanglement games. I do think that as the leg lock game becomes more widespread that passing in no-gi will become less common as it's really hard to do and leg locking may well provide a better route to winning. Keep in mind though that many of these events are essentially showcases for leg lock heavy grapplers, and that at ADCC '15 you didn't really see a lot more leg locks than normal. Part of that is their rule set, but a bigger part is that the really elite guys still prefer to be on top and have either a strong wrestling or sweep game is still the best way to get there.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

in a sub only match, passing guard has lost a lot of incentive, not to mention peoples guard had become so good that it is a fucking hell to pass them without the gi grips. Leg locks by pass all that work.

 

[mataleaos]

There are certain schools, Renzo's being most notable, that have gained a lot of notoriety over the last few years by winning high (but not elite) level no-gi sub only events primarily on the strength of their leg lock game. It makes sense for them to play in this way because they have an advantage in this realm over their competition as their understanding of the leg lock game is beyond most peoples'. I would expect that as complex leg locking systems become more widespread that you'll see fewer people relying exclusively on that game and more of a mix between wrestling heavy top games, guard sweeping back attacking games, and leg entanglement games. I do think that as the leg lock game becomes more widespread that passing in no-gi will become less common as it's really hard to do and leg locking may well provide a better route to winning. Keep in mind though that many of these events are essentially showcases for leg lock heavy grapplers, and that at ADCC '15 you didn't really see a lot more leg locks than normal. Part of that is their rule set, but a bigger part is that the really elite guys still prefer to be on top and have either a strong wrestling or sweep game is still the best way to get there.

Thank you for this info. I just looked up stats for the last adcc and you're right. Looks like there were about 30 submissions. I see 8 rear naked chokes, 6 heel hooks, 5 straight arm locks, 2 kimuras, 2 kneebars, 1 toe hold, 1 brabo, 1 side choke, 1 no arm triangle, 1 inverted triangle, 1 omoplata, and 1 twister.

Never seen an omoplata, no arm triangle, or twister at adcc before. And not a single guillotine this time? That's a surprise.

I guess you can't read too much into these. The last EBI also had less leg locks than any of the previous ones. But the leg game still seems to be in full swing.

So you're saying that things will eventually even out?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Thank you for this info. I just looked up stats for the last adcc and you're right. Looks like there were about 30 submissions. I see 8 rear naked chokes, 6 heel hooks, 5 straight arm locks, 2 kimuras, 2 kneebars, 1 toe hold, 1 brabo, 1 side choke, 1 no arm triangle, 1 inverted triangle, 1 omoplata, and 1 twister.

Never seen an omoplata, no arm triangle, or twister at adcc before. And not a single guillotine this time? That's a surprise.

I guess you can't read too much into these. The last EBI also had less leg locks than any of the previous ones. But the leg game still seems to be in full swing.

So you're saying that things will eventually even out?

I think so. Leg locks are an important part of the game in open rules no-gi. The way things tend to progress in BJJ is essentially dialectic: someone comes up with a new strategy, other people find answers to that strategy, and the synthesis of the two becomes part of the standard repertoire. You saw that happen with things like X-guard, deep half, and the berimbolo. I see no reason that wouldn't happen as well with the leg locking game. We're at a point where leg locks are peaking as a novel strategy, but the faster that happens the faster people find answers and integrate those answer into the general body of knowledge. In 10 years everyone will most likely learn some variant of the Danaher positional leg attacking system as well as the defenses to that system as part of the standard curriculum, just like people start learning deep half and berimbolo as blue belts these days.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I think so. Leg locks are an important part of the game in open rules no-gi. The way things tend to progress in BJJ is essentially dialectic: someone comes up with a new strategy, other people find answers to that strategy, and the synthesis of the two becomes part of the standard repertoire. You saw that happen with things like X-guard, deep half, and the berimbolo. I see no reason that wouldn't happen as well with the leg locking game. We're at a point where leg locks are peaking as a novel strategy, but the faster that happens the faster people find answers and integrate those answer into the general body of knowledge. In 10 years everyone will most likely learn some variant of the Danaher positional leg attacking system as well as the defenses to that system as part of the standard curriculum, just like people start learning deep half and berimbolo as blue belts these days.

I dont know, the problem is that passing guards these days in no gi is just so hard, In a sub only match, it makes more sense to attack the legs than trying to pass guards, unless you are marcelo garcia.

 

[mataleaos]

I dont know, the problem is that passing guards these days in no gi is just so hard, In a sub only match, it makes more sense to attack the legs than trying to pass guards, unless you are marcelo garcia.

Do you think it's so enormously difficult though? I do think it's harder especially among lighter weights. But unless you're talking about the very very best guard in the world I still see a lot of guards passed without the gi. Maybe in a sub only match where not passing the guard still allows you to get chokes and leg locks. But I think there will always be a place in no-gi for a more "sweep and pass" game.

I think there have been some big leaps in no-gi guard passing that are almost never talked about but they're there.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Do you think it's so enormously difficult though? I do think it's harder especially among lighter weights. But unless you're talking about the very very best guard in the world I still see a lot of guards passed without the gi. Maybe in a sub only match where not passing the guard still allows you to get chokes and leg locks. But I think there will always be a place in no-gi for a more "sweep and pass" game.

I think there have been some big leaps in no-gi guard passing that are almost never talked about but they're there.

yes, HW will still have a passing orientated game, lws, damn its gotten almost impossible pass (I am ofcrouse talking about high level competition)

 

[mataleaos]

yes, HW will still have a passing orientated game, lws, damn its gotten almost impossible pass (I am ofcrouse talking about high level competition)

I'm trying to think how I can agree and still give some examples that show the flip side. Because at the lighter weights (77kg/middleweight and below), you can still see tremendous guard passing from players like Rafa, Cobrinha, Lepri, Durinho, Tanquinho, Frazatto, Joao Miayo, Otavio, Caio, Kron, JT, Glover, Victor Estima, Rader, Danis, and others. I'm not even talking passing off a sweep. Just full on being in front of guards and passing.

Felipe Pena is bigger than them but is my favorite example. His guard passing without the gi grips is tighter than most people passing with the gi grips.

I think sub only is the big distinction the more I think about it. Any sort of event where points are involved I still see top players passing at virtually every weight class. I actually remember being frustrated at Cobrinha, JT, and Lepri no-gi matches over the years because they are so insistent on passing without really looking to "catch" a submission.

I admit when you have a Miyao or a Mendes playing the guard without a gi it does look like it's not possible to pass them.