Cung Le's flying scissor takedown

[EndlessCritic]

I had always seen the flying scissor as a bit of a joke takedown, but it's incredible how proficient Cung Le was at it in his day. Watch this clip from 45s onwards. His setup seems to be quite unusual in that he leads with the leg that goes behind his opponent, almost as if he's faking a side kick.



By contrast, with the standard flying scissor, people generally lead with the leg that goes in front of their opponent, then bring the back leg behind:

I confess I have never seen anyone else ever attack the flying scissor the way Cung Le does. Is there a special name for his variation?

 

[Balto]

He was so awesome at that takedown.

I think he did do it that way to fake a spinning kick to set it up. I don't know of any special name for doing it that way.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Prime Sanshou Cung Le was a straight pimp. Even before his Sanshou run he was a CA state JUCO wrestling champ and national All American. Would have loved to have seen him in MMA in late 90's, early 00's vs. prime Miletich, Newton or Hughes for the UFC strap.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

There is a difference between the setups of scissor takedown in striking and grappling sports:

In grappling, its mostly executed from a tie or clinch.
Close distance.
Meaning, it will most probably involve tight upper body control (in jacket) or sometimes, posting an arm on the mat.

In striking, that distance is a brawl distance, so entry have to be dynamic, from a further away, using inertia.
Meaning, as an end of a striking combination.

Check capoeira scissor takedowns, they are a thing of beauty:

 

[EndlessCritic]

There is a difference between the setups of scissor takedown in striking and grappling sports:

In grappling, its mostly executed from a tie or clinch.
Close distance.
Meaning, it will most probably involve tight upper body control (in jacket) or sometimes, posting an arm on the mat.

In striking, that distance is a brawl distance, so entry have to be dynamic, from a further away, using inertia.
Meaning, as an end of a striking combination.

Check capoeira scissor takedowns, they are a thing of beauty:

That second one was fucking amazing lol.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

That second one was fucking amazing lol.

Perfect timing and complete surprise!

 

[Kforcer]

I had always seen the flying scissor as a bit of a joke takedown, but it's incredible how proficient Cung Le was at it in his day. Watch this clip from 45s onwards. His setup seems to be quite unusual in that he leads with the leg that goes behind his opponent, almost as if he's faking a side kick.



By contrast, with the standard flying scissor, people generally lead with the leg that goes in front of their opponent, then bring the back leg behind:

I confess I have never seen anyone else ever attack the flying scissor the way Cung Le does. Is there a special name for his variation?

I love the flying scissor. It isn't a joke at all, as long as someone actually practices it and sets it up intelligently. The cross-body version is especially neglected and I think, very high percentage with a little practice.

As it was one of my favorite moves, I used to study Cung Le's execution of it and one thing that is certainly different from what you'd see in a grappling setting is the way he spins into it like a kick and often posting both hands on the mat as he hits it. Usually, in a grappling setting, be it wrestling (the broomstick is a variation of the scissor that you can do in scholastic wrestling and the scissor itself is legal in freestyle had has been done by guys like Fadzaev and Barry Davis), sambo, submission-grappling or what have you, you're going to grab the opponent's neck and, if it isn't a broomstick variation, probably post the other hand on the mat as your feet leave the floor.

His version, at least for me, was a lot harder than what you'd normally do. In my case, I'd normally grab the wrist, then bicep and then the neck, holding the bicep and neck as I executed the scissor, which is a lot easier than what Cung Le would do.

The way Cung Le did it was spectacular and brought his opponents to the mat, but didn't result in the same sort of control which is the aim of a scissors takedown in a grappling setting. Grabbing the neck of the opponent allows you some hang-time to frame things a bit. In Chonan's case, part of what's so spectacular is that, while he did put his hands on Silva's shoulder, he didn't have nearly the same sort of grip that people would usually have when they execute a scissor. But he made up for that by the way he fell onto his shoulders and got hold of Silva's ankles even as his legs were making contact.

 

[Kforcer]

I had always seen the flying scissor as a bit of a joke takedown, but it's incredible how proficient Cung Le was at it in his day. Watch this clip from 45s onwards. His setup seems to be quite unusual in that he leads with the leg that goes behind his opponent, almost as if he's faking a side kick.



By contrast, with the standard flying scissor, people generally lead with the leg that goes in front of their opponent, then bring the back leg behind:

I confess I have never seen anyone else ever attack the flying scissor the way Cung Le does. Is there a special name for his variation?

Looking at his highlights, it is interesting how he's still often able to land with a pretty strong degree of potential control over his opponent's legs. Sometimes there's no control at all--and of course it's not his aim in these instances--but sometimes, when they land, you see that he essentially would have been able to directly attack the leg.

If Cung Le had just set his mind on become a skilled submission grappler, he could have ruled MMA like he did San Shou IMO. He was always reticent to use his greatest weapons because of his fear of going to the ground, turning him into just a really good striker with great takedown defense instead of a guy with awesome striking and crazy takedowns and throws and potentially, some solid submissions. With his wrestling background, I'd assume he had a pretty good sense of ground control.

 

[EndlessCritic]

If Cung Le had just set his mind on become a skilled submission grappler, he could have ruled MMA like he did San Shou IMO.

Cung Le made his UFC debut at 39 years old.

In his short MMA career, he crushed two UFC champions from two generations (Frank Shamrock and Rich Franklin). Shamrock had not lost a fight in over a decade. (We're not counting the Renzo DQ.)

Cung Le just came to the UFC too late. He didn't need to learn submissions, nor was that ever a reason for any of his losses. He was an incredible fighter and athlete.

 

[Kforcer]

Cung Le made his UFC debut at 39 years old.

In his short MMA career, he crushed two UFC champions from two generations (Frank Shamrock and Rich Franklin). Shamrock had not lost a fight in over a decade. (We're not counting the Renzo DQ.)

Cung Le just came to the UFC too late. He didn't need to learn submissions, nor was that ever a reason for any of his losses. He was an incredible fighter and athlete.

I never said he had a mediocre career. Obviously, he was very impressive.

But he himself said he wasn't going to do his flying scissor, for example, for fear of being submitted off of it. He had awesome takedowns and throws. And he didn't utilize them like he could have in his MMA career, had he been confident in his abilities on the ground. Had he been emboldened to take fights to the ground, I think he could have done even better than he did. Aren't world-class takedowns and throws a huge factor in MMA? Wouldn't Cung Le being confident enough on the ground to make full use of his takedowns, throws and suplexes helped to do even better than he otherwise did?

 

[Kforcer]

He was an incredible fighter and athlete.

What did I say that even remotely suggested that I didn't think this was the case? I'm just saying that I think confidence on the ground would have enabled him to unleash the entirety of his toolbox upon the MMA world.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

He teaches this in his book. And yes, he starts by faking the kick

 

[ChickenBrother]

I never said he had a mediocre career. Obviously, he was very impressive.

But he himself said he wasn't going to do his flying scissor, for example, for fear of being submitted off of it. He had awesome takedowns and throws. And he didn't utilize them like he could have in his MMA career, had he been confident in his abilities on the ground. Had he been emboldened to take fights to the ground, I think he could have done even better than he did. Aren't world-class takedowns and throws a huge factor in MMA? Wouldn't Cung Le being confident enough on the ground to make full use of his takedowns, throws and suplexes helped to do even better than he otherwise did?

Did he actually say he wasn't confident on the ground in MMA? I've always wondered about that and if it was indeed the reason he didn't pursue more TDs in his fights, absolutely agree he would have been even more successful had he filled that gap.

But I remember watching some of his sanshou fights back in the day and thinking part of the reason his TDs looked so amazing was because he was fighting guys that looked like one dimensional strikers with no clue how to defend or counter TDs from a college level wrestler. Always wondered if he actually had the TD chops to do that to top talent in MMA. Either way I was always surprised he didn't go for more TDs in his fights. I definitely remember him getting taken down once by Shamrock in their fight (as well as landing a leg sweep TD on Frank) and both times he quickly got back to his feet and wanted no part of Frank on the ground.

 

[Kforcer]

Did he actually say he wasn't confident on the ground in MMA? I've always wondered about that and if it was indeed the reason he didn't pursue more TDs in his fights, absolutely agree he would have been even more successful had he filled that gap.

But I remember watching some of his sanshou fights back in the day and thinking part of the reason his TDs looked so amazing was because he was fighting guys that looked like one dimensional strikers with no clue how to defend or counter TDs from a college level wrestler. Always wondered if he actually had the TD chops to do that to top talent in MMA. Either way I was always surprised he didn't go for more TDs in his fights. I definitely remember him getting taken down once by Shamrock in their fight (as well as landing a leg sweep TD on Frank) and both times he quickly got back to his feet and wanted no part of Frank on the ground.

Yeah, he actually did literally say that he wasn't going to go for the flying scissor unless maybe it was the end of a round, because he didn't want to get submitted, basically. Then he also said that he was never going to be like a Jake Shields on the ground and that it basically wasn't for him, but for people like Shields. And he said other things that alluded to a lack of confidence there.

This is going to get a little conspiracy-theory, here, but I have a conspiracy theory regarding Cung Le and the ground-game. Frank Shamrock trained with him for a while, but the whole time, he saw Cung Le as a potential opponent. He talked publicly about how he owned Cung Le when they rolled (which is to be expected, of course, since he would be the teacher in that area and Cung Le the student). And of course, Jake Shields was also at AKA at the time and they trained together and Shields was another one who saw Cung Le as a future opponent. And I just think that Shields and Shamrock may have seen this guy who was a monster striker and a monster with throws and takedowns and a very good wrestler to boot, as well as a very, very marketable opponent, and not really wanted to do their due diligence as training partners when it came to bringing up to speed on the ground game as best they could. I actually think that they may have had something to do with undermining his confidence there.

I mean, the Le and Shamrock fight broke records and I remember people talking about the potential of that match-up for a while before it happened. I almost think that Shamrock was trying to "groom" Le as an opponent and maybe Shields as well. Or at least, I don't think they were honestly trying bring him up to speed on the ground. That's my tinfoil theory.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah, he actually did literally say that he wasn't going to go for the flying scissor unless maybe it was the end of a round, because he didn't want to get submitted, basically. Then he also said that he was never going to be like a Jake Shields on the ground and that it basically wasn't for him, but for people like Shields. And he said other things that alluded to a lack of confidence there.

This is going to get a little conspiracy-theory, here, but I have a conspiracy theory regarding Cung Le and the ground-game. Frank Shamrock trained with him for a while, but the whole time, he saw Cung Le as a potential opponent. He talked publicly about how he owned Cung Le when they rolled (which is to be expected, of course, since he would be the teacher in that area and Cung Le the student). And of course, Jake Shields was also at AKA at the time and they trained together and Shields was another one who saw Cung Le as a future opponent. And I just think that Shields and Shamrock may have seen this guy who was a monster striker and a monster with throws and takedowns and a very good wrestler to boot, as well as a very, very marketable opponent, and not really wanted to do their due diligence as training partners when it came to bringing up to speed on the ground game as best they could. I actually think that they may have had something to do with undermining his confidence there.

I mean, the Le and Shamrock fight broke records and I remember people talking about the potential of that match-up for a while before it happened. I almost think that Shamrock was trying to "groom" Le as an opponent and maybe Shields as well. Or at least, I don't think they were honestly trying bring him up to speed on the ground. That's my tinfoil theory.

Interesting conspiracy theory. I guess it's possible and I'm sure we've both seen some wacky stuff go down in the gym. But personally I think it's unlikely as neither Shamrock nor Shields would have been big enough to entirely control the direction of Le's coaching. Le would have been a high profile prospect in his own right and certainly would have had many grappling coaches offering him feedback, guidance and encouragement.

 

[Kforcer]

Interesting conspiracy theory. I guess it's possible and I'm sure we've both seen some wacky stuff go down in the gym. But personally I think it's unlikely as neither Shamrock nor Shields would have been big enough to entirely control the direction of Le's coaching. Le would have been a high profile prospect in his own right and certainly would have had many grappling coaches offering him feedback, guidance and encouragement.

Yeah, maybe part of it is because I feel like I've seen something similar in gyms, where a grappling coach has given people the impression that grappling was something they weren't suited for rather than simply something they needed to learn and could learn. I guess I can think of one guy in particular who was like that.

But you have a point, there was more to AKA than just Shields or Shamrock. And like you said, Le was a huge deal, especially in those days, especially in California.

It was just a little weird to me that you had Le's main training partner and supposed buddy angling for a fight with him and publicly disclosing that he owned Le on the ground (he did also mention in an interview that Le threw him around the first time they sparred) and then you also have Jake Shields, who Le specifically named as being someone he'd never rival on the ground and who ultimately ended up wanting a big money fight against him just like Shamrock. It just doesn't seem like the best situation. At what point did Dave Camarillo become the AKA grappling coach? Because Frank had that role for a while himself.

 

[RJ Green]

Since we don't have enough to argue about around here:

Is Kani Basami where they fall to their back the superior version, or is Kani Basami to the front better?

Onto their back keeps uke from breaking their fall and sets up the heel hook. Onto their front gives uke their hands, but brings Tori up into a calf slicer or back control.

Thoughts?

 

[CFGroup]

As impressive as those scissors are, the throw offense from the roundhouse kicks is fucking brilliant!

Seagal Aikido level brilliant shit!

Settle down joking!

If Aikido actually worked...

 

[Kforcer]

Since we don't have enough to argue about around here:

Is Kani Basami where they fall to their back the superior version, or is Kani Basami to the front better?

Onto their back keeps uke from breaking their fall and sets up the heel hook. Onto their front gives uke their hands, but brings Tori up into a calf slicer or back control.

Thoughts?

For grappling, the cross-body version is the most underrated. I.E., where you tie-up and then scissor the far leg. It gives you a wider target and is a lot easier to hit, even though your opponent is more likely to fall atop you.

As to your question, I normally would use the scissor to fall into the submission from standing, rather than kicking the opponent's legs out, though I think there are shades of gray, such as kneeing the back of your opponent's knee rather than the full cutting motion, which is what Reilly Bodycomb often did.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah, maybe part of it is because I feel like I've seen something similar in gyms, where a grappling coach has given people the impression that grappling was something they weren't suited for rather than simply something they needed to learn and could learn. I guess I can think of one guy in particular who was like that.

But you have a point, there was more to AKA than just Shields or Shamrock. And like you said, Le was a huge deal, especially in those days, especially in California.

It was just a little weird to me that you had Le's main training partner and supposed buddy angling for a fight with him and publicly disclosing that he owned Le on the ground (he did also mention in an interview that Le threw him around the first time they sparred) and then you also have Jake Shields, who Le specifically named as being someone he'd never rival on the ground and who ultimately ended up wanting a big money fight against him just like Shamrock. It just doesn't seem like the best situation. At what point did Dave Camarillo become the AKA grappling coach? Because Frank had that role for a while himself.

According to bjjheroes, Camarillo became head AKA grappling coach in 2003, well before Cung made his MMA debut in 2006.

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/dave-camarillo

It's possible Shields or Shamrock were gaslighting Le while training there. I'm sure those guys and others were clowning him in the grappling department and he probably was less than confident there. But I suspect Le's MMA style was more heavily influenced by the following:

1) He was old. Le debuted in Strikeforce at 34 and the UFC at 39. We've seen other wrestlers change up their styles and shy away from TDs in mid-30's due to injuries and slowing down with age. Guys like Sherk and Hendo come to mind. High amplitude freestyle/Judo style throws like Le was doing are brutal on your knees and back over time.

2) The Andy Wang effect. TUF brought in more casuals but increased the need to "be exciting." A guy like Le probably realized he'd never be Charles Oliveira on the ground and figured he'd be more popular and make more money if he fought like Anderson Silva rather than Jon Fitch.