CrossFacing- what is legal?

[HEAVY GRAPPLER]

Solid tips on the papercutter choke.

I use the grip all the time, but never seem to get the choke going.

 

[Zankou]

Solid tips on the papercutter choke.

I use the grip all the time, but never seem to get the choke going.

Papercutter choke is wrongly derided as a "fat guy" choke. That's what my professor actually calls it. A lot of heavier guys will just sit there in side control haplessly trying to choke their opponent by dropping the elbow/working for the americana.

This is because they are just trying to drop the elbow and stay heavy, which is the wrong way to think about it. They are also using the thumb-up grip, which destroys any ability to use your elbow to control the head. Without high elbow pressure working as a crossface, your opponent will simply turn his face towards you, and then you cannot finish the choke unless he is a puss.

What you need to do in order to finish the choke right is TURN the guy's head the OTHER way, just like a traditional crossface, except using your elbow to turn the face away, cranking his face with leverage from the thumb-down cross lapel grip. You don't need any weight on your opponent to do this. You just need to have a thumb-down grip in the cross collar and use your elbow on the side of his face to pin it the other direction. You can get this control while kneeling or standing on your feet. It is a truly hellacious control, particularly when you cinch it tight by pulling the second lapel and the elbow goes hard against the face.

Then from there you are looking to finish a true cross-choke after grabbing the second lapel and pulling it up and out, not a classic "papercutter."

 

[Vitamin C]

One particular form of crossfacing that I use a lot is from knee on belly. Namely, with the thumb in grip at the tag of their collar. The first grip that I use to set up the baseball bat choke.

If they try to turn into me, I can flare my forearm into their temple, redirecting their head and shoulders back flat to the mat. The same applies when you take that grip attacking the leg weave pass. It's the same concept as a shoulder pressure crossface, only from a distance that does not allow you to use your shoulder, hence your forearm instead. Pretty sure I saw it when watching Galvao or Rodolfo.

Edit; reapercutter

We are taught to finish the pcc by underhooking the near arm and getting for fingers in the back of their collar. And yeah, the cutting arm wants thumb in, elbow to the mat, and flare out, forcing their face away. Opens their neck up real nice. Brutal choke, and very tight armbar options with the near underhook.

 

[Zankou]

Btw, just searching real quick for a vid I see Jeremy shows how to do the control on this side control vid, starting at around 3:30.

[YT]HDAEVyDzgw4#t=307[/YT]

Unlike this vid, I don't like the classic "reach under the arm first" papercutter control, and I much prefer to establish the control and finish as a cross choke. I also don't think you need to do it from a tight position, I commonly get the control from a distance. But I love how in the vid he says this should feel like "the hammer of God coming down on you," because that's exactly right, it should feel like horrific pressure, particularly when combined with twisting the legs the other direction, and/or a cross lapel finish.

The other thing to remember is that this same elbow-high cross collar grip can be used from EVERY position in BJJ, not just side control top. Because people think of it as a finish, they don't appreciate how broad its application is.

Btw the reason I don't like the finish Jeremy shows is exactly because of what he says, if you don't get the submission perfect the first time, then you can't really fix it. I prefer to use it as a continuous control position with tons of transitions to mount/back/KOB, and cross choke/back choke/clock choke, not locked into one rather awkward choke finish (traditional "underhook" papercutt control).

 

[Vitamin C]

Just realised now while thinking about it that the paper cutter is the arm-in cousin of the baseball bat.

 

[Leify]

Solid tips on the papercutter choke.

I use the grip all the time, but never seem to get the choke going.

I like the way Saulo finishes. He gets the thumb in cross collar grip, and uses his other hand to reach under their nearside elbow/tricep and pull up while driving the elbow of his choking hand down and into their head.

There's also a sweet variation that gets set up for you if you go for the clock choke, and the guy gives up side control by turning into you to defend.

 

[Zankou]

I like the way Saulo finishes. He gets the thumb in cross collar grip, and uses his other hand to reach under their nearside elbow/tricep and pull up while driving the elbow of his choking hand down and into their head.

There's also a sweet variation that gets set up for you if you go for the clock choke, and the guy gives up side control by turning into you to defend.

Interesting, do you have a vid? That is the same type of pressure I prefer, but I usually pull the second lapel UP and out rather than pulling on the arm. Sometimes I will pull up on the sleeve itself, which again really sucks for the person being choked. Unlike grabbing the collar behind the head, this kind of control allows you to easily transfer into other positions (notably KOB/mount/back) and other attacks.

Also important note which is that when pulling the second lapel up and out, it is also a thumb down and inside grip. You will not get the right pull if your second hand is fingers-inside and thumb up. There is a devastating lapel wrap variation to this finish that I learned from a Margarida seminar, to this day I think it is the strongest choke I have seen in BJJ.

 

[Leify]

Interesting, do you have a vid? That is the same type of pressure I prefer, but I usually pull the second lapel UP and out rather than pulling on the arm. Sometimes I will pull up on the sleeve itself, which again really sucks for the person being choked. Unlike grabbing the collar behind the head, this kind of control allows you to easily transfer into other positions (notably KOB/mount/back) and other attacks.

Also important note which is that when pulling the second lapel up and out, it is also a thumb down and inside grip. You will not get the right pull if your second hand is fingers-inside and thumb up. There is a devastating lapel wrap variation to this finish that I learned from a Margarida seminar, to this day I think it is the strongest choke I have seen in BJJ.

Unfortunately, the only video I can recall seeing on that finish is behind the bjj library paywall, but I may have forgotten seeing it elsewhere.

I can put a screenshot up of the finishing position later tonight, if you'd like.

 

[JustTheTip]

Interesting, do you have a vid? That is the same type of pressure I prefer, but I usually pull the second lapel UP and out rather than pulling on the arm. Sometimes I will pull up on the sleeve itself, which again really sucks for the person being choked. Unlike grabbing the collar behind the head, this kind of control allows you to easily transfer into other positions (notably KOB/mount/back) and other attacks.

Also important note which is that when pulling the second lapel up and out, it is also a thumb down and inside grip. You will not get the right pull if your second hand is fingers-inside and thumb up. There is a devastating lapel wrap variation to this finish that I learned from a Margarida seminar, to this day I think it is the strongest choke I have seen in BJJ.

So both thumbs down cross choke? Am I picturing that right?
I was taught to do it this way.
[YT]ez44pjzhQZk[/YT]

BTW, i'm in LA for 2 weeks starting Wed. Where do you train man?
Personally,

 

[Leify]

Here are pic's of Saulo's positioning on the breadcutter.

Showing hand positioning of the non choking arm.
http://imgur.com/u7KPUk9
Pulling the elbow up and across uke's ribs as you perform the choking motion for the finish.
http://imgur.com/CbrCXqZ

Worth noting that Saulo advocates getting the near side elbow control first, and then working the choking hand in.

Incidentally, I skimmed through his Jiu Jitsu University book, and this same version of the technique is in there, if you want an alternative to bjj library.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Its legal and I have no qualms with it, but if you're dropping your elbow on throats you are going to get into some heated rolls. Doesn't mean you should overlook the technique, just be prepared for it

 

[codemonkey76]

Elbow across the throat is the single most under-used move in all of BJJ, IMO. I like to say that half of BJJ dies with a simple elbow across the throat. Both as the guard passer and guard player ... not just from side control.

This is one of my favorite techniques. From guard, I love the thumb-down cross collar grip so you can drive your elbow high into your opponent's throat. It's incredibly effective at killing the guard pass pressure, as opposed to the usual 'low elbow, thumb up' cross lapel grip. For top game, I absolutely adore getting a thumb in the collar and dropping that elbow right on the throat, again elbow high and thumb down.

I do not believe you are allowed to press on the throat with your hands, however. I might be wrong but that's my recollection, it's considered a trachea squeeze or somesuch. In any event, I think pressing with your hands is less effective than the elbow anyways and more vulnerable to counters (armbar, armdrag) that you want to be on the look for.

I love to set up basically a sliding collar strangle using the thumb in elbow high lapel grip and using the other hand to pull the other lapel down for the choke.

 

[Zankou]

That's the one. I typically use the second hand to open the lapel and slide my choking hand deep, thumb in and down, then I use the second hand to grab the other lapel and pull it across the body.

Those pics of Saulo are similar in the finish, except that he's pulling the sleeve up and over to finish, while I usually pull the second lapel up and over.

 

[Muscleshart]

+1 Zankou I can tell you it is well used at my school. I wouldn't feel loved without an forearm across my throat. We fully believe in a pressure top game and that is a big part of it. Bottom line do what works or someone else will.

 

[netbjjer420]

Zankou is your second hand going over or under the original thumb in grip? What direction are you pulling this second lapel?

 

[codemonkey76]

i pull the second lapel down (like a sliding collar choke) towards their belt, the second hand doesn't need to be deep, i just grab the lapel around their chest area (it just needs to take out the slack.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Elbow across the throat is the single most under-used move in all of BJJ, IMO. I like to say that half of BJJ dies with a simple elbow across the throat. Both as the guard passer and guard player ... not just from side control.

This is one of my favorite techniques. From guard, I love the thumb-down cross collar grip so you can drive your elbow high into your opponent's throat. It's incredibly effective at killing the guard pass pressure, as opposed to the usual 'low elbow, thumb up' cross lapel grip. For top game, I absolutely adore getting a thumb in the collar and dropping that elbow right on the throat, again elbow high and thumb down.

I do not believe you are allowed to press on the throat with your hands, however. I might be wrong but that's my recollection, it's considered a trachea squeeze or somesuch. In any event, I think pressing with your hands is less effective than the elbow anyways and more vulnerable to counters (armbar, armdrag) that you want to be on the look for.

At least the leagues my team fight in I. Oregon and Washington, you can put your hand on someone's throat as long as you keep your fingers and thumbs straight out. For mma its a great control to punch someone in the kisser

 

[Irenaeus]

I have nothing to contribute here, but this is a very good thread. Appreciating.

 

[BJJ Beginner]

Its legal and I have no qualms with it, but if you're dropping your elbow on throats you are going to get into some heated rolls. Doesn't mean you should overlook the technique, just be prepared for it

Just more evidence of the pussification of BJJ. Can't neck crank, can't knee ride, can't crossface, can't use shoulder pressure, can't do anything that might make somebody uncomfortable these days or they'll bitch and moan and complain about "douche moves".