CrossFacing- what is legal?

[ITRDC5]

Hi guys,

We have a new wrestling coach who has really opened my eyes to how effective a good crossface is for passing half guard and maintaining and setting up subs.

Question is- what is legal in competition? Crossfacing rarely occurs when rolling with teamates as I guess it can be deemed a douche bag move.

But for example, can I use my hand to push my opponents face under his chin? Can I use my elbow?

Many thanks,

ITR

 

[seatea]

Crossfacing is legal under IBJJF rules. I don't believe you can use your hands on the face area, anything else is fine.

As for it being a douche bag move, it isn't; crossfacing is a central part of controlling someone from top position. If a training partner complains, the problem lies them not the person doing the crossfacing.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

You can definitely use your elbow/forearm under his chin. This is one of my main ways to stop someone from coming underneath me in half guard, like when he's going for deep half or reverse de la riva.

 

[ITRDC5]

Thanks Seatea,

So I can use my hands under the chin to push their head away? Same with elbow?


My instructor was demonstrating this to me and jesus I couldnt think about anything else when it was occuring!

 

[ITRDC5]

You can definitely use your elbow/forearm under his chin. This is one of my main ways to stop someone from coming underneath me in half guard, like when he's going for deep half or reverse de la riva.

Thanks Rambo, I never thought to use it in helping passing the half guard untill I was shown, i often fight for control of the underhook, i'm going to try the crossface more often to help distract them

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Thanks Rambo, I never thought to use it in helping passing the half guard untill I was shown, i often fight for control of the underhook, i'm going to try the crossface more often to help distract them

Yeah, I don't use it to pass so much as I use it to shut him down. It's good for MMA too.

 

[shunyata]

I give and receive crossfaces all the goddamn time during training. I thought it was a standard fundamental tool in grappling. If someone came over and told my partner they couldn't crossface me because it was too mean, I'd ask if we were in an Aikido class.

 

[Zankou]

Elbow across the throat is the single most under-used move in all of BJJ, IMO. I like to say that half of BJJ dies with a simple elbow across the throat. Both as the guard passer and guard player ... not just from side control.

This is one of my favorite techniques. From guard, I love the thumb-down cross collar grip so you can drive your elbow high into your opponent's throat. It's incredibly effective at killing the guard pass pressure, as opposed to the usual 'low elbow, thumb up' cross lapel grip. For top game, I absolutely adore getting a thumb in the collar and dropping that elbow right on the throat, again elbow high and thumb down.

I do not believe you are allowed to press on the throat with your hands, however. I might be wrong but that's my recollection, it's considered a trachea squeeze or somesuch. In any event, I think pressing with your hands is less effective than the elbow anyways and more vulnerable to counters (armbar, armdrag) that you want to be on the look for.

 

[Vitamin C]

Imagine you weren't allowed to break your partners posture when he is in your closed guard because it's mean.

That's how ridiculous not crossfacing someone in their half guard is.

 

[PoundSand]

So I can use my hands under the chin to push their head away? Same with elbow?

For sure. It's the go to move to make some space when someone in my half guard has flattened me with the underhook and crossface. :redface:

 

[Vitamin C]

Elbow across the throat is the single most under-used move in all of BJJ, IMO. I like to say that half of BJJ dies with a simple elbow across the throat. Both as the guard passer and guard player ... not just from side control.

This is one of my favorite techniques. From guard, I love the thumb-down cross collar grip so you can drive your elbow high into your opponent's throat. It's incredibly effective at killing the guard pass pressure, as opposed to the usual 'low elbow, thumb up' cross lapel grip. For top game, I absolutely adore getting a thumb in the collar and dropping that elbow right on the throat, again elbow high and thumb down.

I do not believe you are allowed to press on the throat with your hands, however. I might be wrong but that's my recollection, it's considered a trachea squeeze or somesuch. In any event, I think pressing with your hands is less effective than the elbow anyways and more vulnerable to counters (armbar, armdrag) that you want to be on the look for.

We are taught at my school to finish pretty much every pass by getting the thumb in cross collar grip. Stops them from turning to turtle and sets up the choke.

My understanding is that one hand on the neck is legal, provided that the fighters aren't pinching. The hand has to be like an open Y. Of course I could be totally mistaken, since the two most prominent examples in my mind come from ADCC and Metamoris.

 

[JustTheTip]

We are taught at my school to finish pretty much every pass by getting the thumb in cross collar grip.

Please describe.I can't picture it.

 

[Vitamin C]

6.4.20 When an athlete, without using the gi, strangles his/her opponent using both hands, or applies pressure to the opponent’s windpipe using the thumb.

6.4.21 When an athlete holds the neck using both hands (one in front and one behind).

There is probably room for debate in the wording there that Vieira's rape choke could be legal. He wraps the head so his arm is blocking the back, not his second hand. It depends on if they count pressure from the Y of the palm to be "using the thumb." You could also probably apply the pressure upwards to the epiglottis like Glover likes to do with his 7yo and guillotine chokes, but good luck with a ref understanding that during the match.

 

[Vitamin C]

Please describe.I can't picture it.

Say that you leg drag. Keep the leg drag control with the same side arm that the legs are dragged to, and with the other hand put your thumb in deep into the opposite collar, like the top grip of a paper cutter choke. He can't turn back in because of the leg control and he can't turn away because your forearm is across his throat, secured by a deep collar grip. The pressures twist his legs and shoulders in opposite directions. Pass to the side and finish the pcc.

Same with the smash pass, and x-pass.

It's taught this way, but I generally don't do it, opting to look for the back and arm triangles instead. Basically I like it when they try to turn away, and that grip kills that option for them entirely.

 

[JustTheTip]

Say that you leg drag. Keep the leg drag control with the same side arm that the legs are dragged to, and with the other hand put your thumb in deep into the opposite collar, like the top grip of a paper cutter choke. He can't turn back in because of the leg control and he can't turn away because your forearm is across his throat, secured by a deep collar grip. The pressures twist his legs and shoulders in opposite directions. Pass to the side and finish the pcc.

Same with the smash pass, and x-pass.

It's taught this way, but I generally don't do it, opting to look for the back and arm triangles instead. Basically I like it when they try to turn away, and that grip kills that option for them entirely.

Got ya. Thanks bro!

 

[Zankou]

Say that you leg drag. Keep the leg drag control with the same side arm that the legs are dragged to, and with the other hand put your thumb in deep into the opposite collar, like the top grip of a paper cutter choke. He can't turn back in because of the leg control and he can't turn away because your forearm is across his throat, secured by a deep collar grip. The pressures twist his legs and shoulders in opposite directions. Pass to the side and finish the pcc.

Same with the smash pass, and x-pass.

It's taught this way, but I generally don't do it, opting to look for the back and arm triangles instead. Basically I like it when they try to turn away, and that grip kills that option for them entirely.

What you have just described is pretty much my favorite side control attack position. It is a devastating control that is stupidly easy to get and has tons of attack options. The spine twisting ruins your opponent's ability to defend.

Often your opponent violently spazzes trying to align themselves back as defense, which gives you an easy mount or back, with a collar grip, which you can then transition into a finish from.

Whoever your instructor is, I whole-heartedly endorse his approach.

 

[mattemate]

Is fist to throat illegal in IBJJF rules? Very effective technique.

 

[Zankou]

There is an interesting key detail, btw, to the papercutter control. It's that you raise your elbow HIGH, right by the guy's ear, and then you can steer his head back and forth with just one arm, elbow pushing the head one way, pulling on the lapel turning it the other. Constant pressure on the throat. Some people will tap to this control alone, even though it's not really a true choke. When you actually want to finish the cross choke, then you bring your elbow closed to your side as you pull up and out on the second lapel. I like to either drop my shoulder on the face or go to KOB/Mount for the finish.

This is my number 1 side control attack. And really the mount and KOB attacks are no different, I still use the same papercutter grip. A glorious grip!!!

 

[esum80]

Elbow across the throat is the single most under-used move in all of BJJ, IMO. I like to say that half of BJJ dies with a simple elbow across the throat. Both as the guard passer and guard player ... not just from side control.

This is one of my favorite techniques. From guard, I love the thumb-down cross collar grip so you can drive your elbow high into your opponent's throat. It's incredibly effective at killing the guard pass pressure, as opposed to the usual 'low elbow, thumb up' cross lapel grip. For top game, I absolutely adore getting a thumb in the collar and dropping that elbow right on the throat, again elbow high and thumb down.

I do not believe you are allowed to press on the throat with your hands, however. I might be wrong but that's my recollection, it's considered a trachea squeeze or somesuch. In any event, I think pressing with your hands is less effective than the elbow anyways and more vulnerable to counters (armbar, armdrag) that you want to be on the look for.

i've been using this more and i absolutely love it.

 

[Harukaze]

Say that you leg drag. Keep the leg drag control with the same side arm that the legs are dragged to, and with the other hand put your thumb in deep into the opposite collar, like the top grip of a paper cutter choke. He can't turn back in because of the leg control and he can't turn away because your forearm is across his throat, secured by a deep collar grip. The pressures twist his legs and shoulders in opposite directions. Pass to the side and finish the pcc.

Same with the smash pass, and x-pass.

It's taught this way, but I generally don't do it, opting to look for the back and arm triangles instead. Basically I like it when they try to turn away, and that grip kills that option for them entirely.

There is an interesting key detail, btw, to the papercutter control. It's that you raise your elbow HIGH, right by the guy's ear, and then you can steer his head back and forth with just one arm, elbow pushing the head one way, pulling on the lapel turning it the other. Constant pressure on the throat. Some people will tap to this control alone, even though it's not really a true choke. When you actually want to finish the cross choke, then you bring your elbow closed to your side as you pull up and out on the second lapel. I like to either drop my shoulder on the face or go to KOB/Mount for the finish.

This is my number 1 side control attack. And really the mount and KOB attacks are no different, I still use the same papercutter grip. A glorious grip!!!

Great info in both posts here! I gotta to try to integrate all of this in my game ASAP; thanks guys!