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Criticism of Jordan Peterson thread v3

Is Jordan Peterson a genius?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 24.4%
  • No

    Votes: 17 41.5%
  • I think he's a genius is in his field and in key areas but I object to views he has outside it

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • I think he's a genius and right on most issues I care about and can overlook imperfections.

    Votes: 4 9.8%
  • He's an idiot in every area, even in psychology, and clearly was not deserving of being his position

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think he's intellectually capable and is problematic because of what he does with his capabilities

    Votes: 2 4.9%
  • There are select issues I vehemently disagree on but he's of very high intellect in most arenas

    Votes: 9 22.0%
  • He has no scholarly/intellectual capabilities and only appears to have any if you're jsut stupid

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • He's just a man going through life the best he can, but he often has no idea what he's talking about

    Votes: 4 9.8%
  • He's genuinely smart but not truly a genius

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
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You're not putting forth honest arguments. You can't point to a passage to make a point and then claim that the entire thing is full of contradictions when I make a counter argument using another passage. If it's full of contradictions then your original point is also moot.

I'm not arguing, despite what you imagine, that the Bible is true, that Christ is real, or whatever misconception you're carrying. I'm using your own logic against you and instead of conceding that the passage cannot be interpreted the way you intimated, you're choosing to flip the entire board over. You can't flip the board over and checkmate me. Choose one.

what passages about polygamy? i proved that earlier with what i linked! you dont read it or you glance over it.

do you even read what i post?

https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm
 
what passages about polygamy? i proved that earlier with what i linked! you dont read it or you glance over it.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

How many times would you like to me say that I'm not arguing against polygamy?

You're being deliberately obtuse because you can't concede a simple point that doesn't even contradict your original premise. You want to have it both ways but you can't. The fact that you'd rather dance this undignified jig instead of saying it was not a strong point is something to behold tho.
 
How many times would you like to me say that I'm not arguing against polygamy?

You're being deliberately obtuse because you can't concede a simple point that doesn't even contradict your original premise. You want to have it both ways but you can't. The fact that you'd rather dance this undignified jig instead of saying it was not a strong point is something to behold tho.

No i am linking and proving the NT has contradictions and is illogical mess that no sane rational person could actually believe is the word of the God they claim it is. That is my claim. Not sure what you are talking about now. I feel you are trolling me or doing that sealioning thing where you keep asking me to prove something and keep trying to distract. And of course anyone who has a bias like yourself will ´´´like´´ your post.
 
And of course anyone who has a bias like yourself will ´´´like´´ your post.

You heard the man, like my posts at the risk of humiliation.

Serious question, did you type this to discourage people from liking my post so my post wouldn't have more likes than yours? Cause I feel like that's what's going on here, and boy, that would be something.
 
You heard the man, like my posts at the risk of humiliation.

Serious question, did you type this to discourage people from liking my post so my post wouldn't have more likes than yours? Cause I feel like that's what's going on here, and boy, that would be something.

i just think this will go predictable. You will claim the NT is logical and jesus is the messiah and all is good and anyone who thinks similarly and does not want to challenge their belief out of fear and other mental illness reasons. Will then agree with you and like your post and not even reply to my logical posts and instead continue to believe that anyone who criticizes your version of God and religion is wrong.

of course your post will get more likes than mine i dont care i just said it because it will inevitably happen and will be funny when it does because it should just prove my point of religious bias or rather certain christian bias.
 
i just think this will go predictable. You will claim the NT is logical and jesus is the messiah and all is good and anyone who thinks similarly and does not want to challenge their belief out of fear and other mental illness reasons. Will then agree with you and like your post and not even reply to my logical posts and instead continue to believe that anyone who criticizes your version of God and religion is wrong.

I'll be honest, I'm torn here. I usually just block people who don't argue in good faith, but the majority of the time this has always been accompanied with mean-spiritedness.

I think you're a poster I used to debate with who was from Paraguay or Uruguay, though I guess you wouldn't tell me even if I'm right.

Hopefully our next conversation can be more honest.
 
I'll be honest, I'm torn here. I usually just block people who don't argue in good faith, but the majority of the time this has always been accompanied with mean-spiritedness.

I think you're a poster I used to debate with who was from Paraguay or Uruguay, though I guess you wouldn't tell me even if I'm right.

Hopefully our next conversation can be more honest.

im from colombia and did not post here before. but posted on bodybuilding and reddit. I not really arguing so much now as i am just proving my point of NT being illogical. But i dont think this will ever go anywhere again unless the apocalypse happens you wont change your mind is my guess.
 
I'll be honest, I'm torn here. I usually just block people who don't argue in good faith, but the majority of the time this has always been accompanied with mean-spiritedness.

I think you're a poster I used to debate with who was from Paraguay or Uruguay, though I guess you wouldn't tell me even if I'm right.

Hopefully our next conversation can be more honest.

my point is you are all the same. circles to me you never even consider you can be wrong. it will take near end of world and no jesus return and you then break the cycle.
 
that is stupid.

the forced monogamy thing though is more disturbing. he says equality of outcomes is wrong but wants system were lower status and looks women basically have no choice but to go with lower status and looks men? not very fair to be but is equal. sounds like communism which i think his fans dislike.

DdoDAf0U0AM_Zwn


Also as Ben Shapiro wrote in response to the NY Times article:
First off, Peterson is using well-established anthropological language here: “enforced monogamy” does not mean government-enforced monogamy. “Enforced monogamy” means socially-promoted, culturally-inculcated monogamy, as opposed to genetic monogamy – evolutionarily-dictated monogamy, which does exist in some species (but does not exist in humans). This distinction has been present in anthropological and scientific literature for decades.

My take is that we already live in societies that have some form of enforced monogamy. It is the social norm to be in monogamous relationships and those in less conventional relationships are not as well accepted. There are also legal rights surrounding marriage and common law relationships that in turn promote monogamous relationships. On top of that there is also a utility to children to have two parents present and that when one or both parents are absent it appears to have a very negative impact on development.

As that quote I provided indicates there also appears to be some research done in evolutionary dynamics and evolutionary psychology that suggest that populations are more stable in a pair boding dynamic.

Humans, as a mammal, are actually very complicated we are in between a tournament based species and a pair bonding species.



There could be a worthwhile discussion in comparing monogamy vs polygamy vs polyamory or any other kind of dynamic and what is best for the individual, for child development and for society as a whole. But those discussions should be influenced by research on population dynamics of various species and the impacts on different norms of relationships.
 
David French's article from The National Review on Jordan Peterson:

Jordan Peterson Plays in the Left’s Cultural Sandbox

Few public figures inspire more vitriol and mockery on Twitter than, you guessed it, Jordan Peterson. And never before have I seen vitriol so out of proportion to the “threat” of the man’s underlying message.

...the contrast between the actual content of his message and the rage and mockery it elicits never fails to surprise me. Have we really reached the point where the basic argument that men and women are different, or that free men and women will often make different choices in large part because they are different, or that religion and ancient traditions can inform and guide our lives today, are now so toxic that their advocates must and should face a relentless campaign to drive them from the public square?

...given the obvious crisis that young men face — with rising rates of suicide and drug overdose, and diminishing educational outcomes — why the extraordinary hostility to a man who is reaching those same young men with a message of hard work, personal responsibility, honor, and integrity?

Peterson stands out because he is playing in the Left’s cultural sandbox. He’s disrupting an emerging secular cultural monopoly with arguments about history, tradition, and the deep truths about human nature that the cultural radicals had long thought they’d banished to the fringe.

...The academy, pop culture, mainstream media, corporate America — all of these spaces have drunk deeply of the Left’s cultural Kool-Aid, especially when it comes to matters of sex and gender.

...It’s not that men (and many women) failed to adjust to the new gender ideologies, it’s that the new gender ideologies too often fail to reckon with our deepest human longings and fail to recognize our fundamental human nature. As Peterson writes in 12 Rules, “We cannot invent our own values, because we cannot merely impose what we believe on our souls.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/jordan-peterson-new-york-times-hostility/
 
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Love this...

This vid tries to break down the fuckery of the english language this dumbass black guy puked at this debate.



Loved that he referred to his speak as "word salad". Great analogy.
 
For anyone still holding on to some negative interpretation of what Peterson meant by 'enforced monogamy' that the New York times piece used to attack him, the first four minutes of this clips covers it as Peterson talks about it specifically



As expected, it's basic common sense.
 
@Gandhi

Here is a NYT article from 2000 discussing the positives (a feminist Utopia) of enforced monogamy:

Maternal Instinct

Hrdy recognizes this inconvenient legacy but dreams of a utopian world in which men and women invest equally in the welfare of their children. Experiments on fruit flies, normally a promiscuous species, indicate that sexual conflict is reduced and the viability of offspring increased when they undergo 50 generations of enforced monogamy. Theoretically, one would predict the same results if the experiment were repeated on humans, but, in the absence of such coercion, men who acquire additional mates, and thus produce proportionally more offspring, retain an evolutionary advantage. Notwithstanding Hrdy's optimism, women are still left holding the baby.


 
@Gandhi

Here is a NYT article from 2000 discussing the positives (a feminist Utopia) of enforced monogamy:

Maternal Instinct

Hrdy recognizes this inconvenient legacy but dreams of a utopian world in which men and women invest equally in the welfare of their children. Experiments on fruit flies, normally a promiscuous species, indicate that sexual conflict is reduced and the viability of offspring increased when they undergo 50 generations of enforced monogamy. Theoretically, one would predict the same results if the experiment were repeated on humans, but, in the absence of such coercion, men who acquire additional mates, and thus produce proportionally more offspring, retain an evolutionary advantage. Notwithstanding Hrdy's optimism, women are still left holding the baby.



NYT BTFO
 
LOL You guys should check out Peterson's Reddit AMA.

Highly entertaining.

 
LOL You guys should check out Peterson's Reddit AMA.

Highly entertaining.



I'd say that it is fair to point out that Hitler was a non-believer (except in whatever he found convenient to push his agenda):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Publicly, the Nazis attempted to come off as, at the very least, accepting of Christianity and religious beliefs, because the Germans were indeed quite religious at the time. They would've never made it to power if Hitler's actual views on religion had come to light.

It would be fair to say that while Nazism as an ideal was mostly non-religious, outside of some esoteric occult circles which practised neo-paganism and mysticism, many of the men who committed many crimes in the name of Nazism, were most likely religious Christians. Other than the SS, who were indoctrinated into Himmler's own occult beliefs (and were also responsible for the largest percentage of the atrocities).

It seems quite clear though, that a part of Hitler's plan was to phase out the role of religious beliefs in Germany society. However, it's still a bit of a stretch to call Nazism an atheist doctrine. A denial of God and religion wasn't as important to Nazism as it was to communism. God, or gods, the church and religion, were seen as tools to be used in order to further Nazi agenda.
 
This is pretty funny considering the trend lately of male feminists turning out to be sexual abusers and predators.

These articles and these threads are full of textbook cases of projection.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I am no huge fan of JP, but when I hear paranoid claims that "he appeals to a massive audience that hates women" my interest shifts. It shifts from an analysis of why JP is so hung up on Jung and religion, to what moves certain people to obviously and deliberately make false accusations about him and his fans. One possibility is that people are moved to make extreme accusations about their "ideological enemies" whenever the enemy makes points that cannot be refuted with traditional intellectual discourse. Meaning, if you can't support your position, you resort to dishonesty.
 
I think the guy is overrated, but I don't think he's a charlatan. One of his gifts is saying things that are obviously true and thereby provoking outrage.
You made three claims here and I agree strongly with all of them.
 
I actually think there are larger forces at play.

Reality is there's a balancing act to have people do the "dude obey" at home and have a cohesive society, all the while supporting actions around the world. The sense of decency in our society means we cannot tolerate our army looting and pillaging in a medieval or Red Army fashion the innocent people across the globe. Generally people are self-absorbed so anti-war sentiment goes up when our nose gets bloodied, but we see civil disobedience with Vietnam etc.

So where we can, we typically try to do others to do our dirty work for us, and to wash our hands. So deporting people to foreign countries for torture etc, or supporting puppet regimes and satellite states.

Of course, a guy like Chomsky sees right through that.

Then me personally, I take great offense that military personnel are not held to have a right to life that an ordinary citizen does. I would argue that the supreme crime is that of unethical aggression. Hence, unwarranted precision military strikes against militaries in other nations I would consider to be as terroristic in nature as any other type attack.

I mean, if we blew up a central american military base simply because we wanted to, I personally do not differentiate that to just blowing up any random person. Doing such a thing is largely unpallatable, so instead low level interference is usually conducted to destablize a government, have them do something out of line, and then move in and say we are "liberating" people.

Anyhow, I digress, it's a view and nuance that is seldomly shared, but for me personally, when something happens like a few dozen middle easterners attack civilization, it doesn't give us a right to concoct a story of WMDs and us invading a problematic separate country in Iraq because "we can't have the proof in the form of the mushroom cloud" and wage a war of aggression on a FALSE pretense of defense and that not be considered terrorism.

So there's an argument to be made that all that military action taken was countless acts of terrorism. Of course, people on this side of the pond who have the benefit of having the biggest army, a lifetime of patriotic indoctrination, and an ability to redefine the word "terrorism" from what it says it is in my dictionary, will seldom view it like that.
It's difficult for Americans (and Canadians too, to a lesser extent) to accept Chomsky's assertions of US terrorist acts. But if you are evidence-driven and read his work carefully, its very difficult to refute.
 
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