confused about Judo rules (submissions).

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Kyuktooki, May 1, 2008.

  1. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

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    Is the Rear Naked Choke (Hadake Jime?) , Kimura (Ude-Garami?), and the Omoplata (Ashi-Garami?) allowed? What about the Brabo choke?
    Because of a job change, I recently started Judo here in Korea after 8-9 months of BJJ. The Judo club I train with seems to know their stuff but they don't seem to be complete straight with what submissions are allowed on the ground. They say their rules are same rules used in Olympic competition but I think because they don't focus on ne-waza (Korean: gu-chigi) much its simply a topic that is out of sight and therefore out of mind. They even told me once that I couldn't triangle choke my opponent but later changed their mind after consulting with higher authorities. I don't want to challenge my instructors but I do want to have a good idea what I am an am not allowed to do when I do ne-waza. I checked the IJF rules but other than listing all Judo techniques (at least one of which I am certain is banned).
    If you know of any helpful links to help clear this up I would appreciate it. I searched Sherdog but the only info I found was the obvious stuff about neck-cranks, and leg submissions not being allowed.
     
  2. mr. tadashi

    mr. tadashi White Belt

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    Yes they are legal. One armlock that is illegal is when you perform waki gatame standing and go down to the ground by dropping down to land on your stomach. If a person was to try and choke a person using their legs like a triangle but without having the arm trapped in the legs it would be illegal then.
     
  3. pittfrog

    pittfrog Blue Belt

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    All of those are allowed. Triangles are definitely allowed, in Judo a triangle is sankaku jime. There are even some turnovers in judo that start with a triangle. Omoplata would be less useful in Judo newaza, IMO, as it would be tough to get before "matte" is called, and you and your opponent would be returned to your feet.

    If I were you, I'd worry less about what BJJ techniques are allowed, and focus on the Judo that your club is teaching. Your throwing will improve much more that way, and you'll be a much stronger player if/when you return to BJJ.
     
  4. ooitzoo

    ooitzoo Purple Belt

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    Wait, chokes arent legal in Judo unless there is an arm in between?
     
  5. black koala

    black koala Purple Belt

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    Allowed where? in the dojo or in a shia? In dojo your Sensi will let you know and in shia depends on your rank and age.
     
  6. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    I live and train in Korea too. If you live in Seoul there are quite a few places you can train bjj at. There are morning and evening classes (lasting sometimes till 10:30 or 11pm).

    As far as I know, the yudo rules are slightly different to judo rules. One of my friends trained yudo in Bundang somewhere and trained bjj in the US. From what I remember, he was telling me that kimuras were allowed but triangles that are common to bjj are not allowed. He told me that the reverse triangle however is allowed.

    He told me that the newaza (can't remember the Korean name for it) from the other students wasn't that good but the instructors had good newaza and a surprisingly good guard. Especially the guys that went to Yongin university.

    Blanko knows just about everywhere there is to train bjj in Korea so hes probably the best person to ask which place is most suitable for you.
     
  7. black koala

    black koala Purple Belt

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    ...he's not looking for a place to train bjj, his inquiry is about Judo rules.
    cheers'
     
  8. mr. tadashi

    mr. tadashi White Belt

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    No, I was refering to having the legs wrapped around a persons neck to choke.(In this specfic case it is illegal unless there is an arm in between.)
     
  9. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    A leg choke like a triangle requires an arm.

    Collar chokes, RNCs, or any other kind of arm based choke don't have that restriction.
     
  10. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    Fair enough, just giving him some options in case he has been looking for a bjj gym and hasn't been able to find one.

    Your right, his question was about judo rules.
     
  11. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    No shoulder attacks allowed at all. That means you have to adjust your kimuras to where they are putting preassure on the elbow joint and not on the shoulder. You might be able to get away with the regular kimura but if the opponent or ref complains.....

    The omoplata also has to be turned into an armlock.

    A rearnaked is okay as long as you only use one hook, dont touch the face and put no preassure on the chin.

    Brabo chokes sound perfectly legal as long as you dont touch the face. For that move...like a lot of ne waza...it all depends on the tolerance of the guy reffing your match.
     
  12. masterfighter

    masterfighter Green Belt

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    strictly seen omoplata isnt legal as your not allowed to target any joint other than the elbow under IJF rules. Same goes for kimura in theory but its a bit of a grey zone and depends very much on the referee. Unless you actualy fuck up your oponents shoulder, you should be fine with udegerami. Pretty much all chokes are fine exept choking with your bare hands (horror film style) and trying to scissor your oponents head with your legs. Your not allowed to attack the neck so guilatine is not allowed. Rear naked chokes and all gi chokes are fine though.
    Also not that standing submissions are legal, but you may not throw your oponent while applying a standing submission.
     
  13. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    Why one hook?
     
  14. mr. tadashi

    mr. tadashi White Belt

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    IMO maneuvers like the omoplata and kimura are all a grey zone as they are likely to be seen as a mor of an attack to the elbow and not the shoulder. As for the no pressure on the chin comment. I had my jaw pop out the other night and well people will try to do chokes with the gi and end up cranking on the persons chin a lot of the time. Also having hooks in are legal when you have the persons back but, using a body triangle is not.
     
  15. Rip-Rabbo

    Rip-Rabbo Brown Belt

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    It's all legal under Olympic rules, as long as the armlocks hit the elbow not the shoulder, and as long as the chokes don't torque the neck.
     
  16. Yanoush

    Yanoush Guest

    why are there so many goddamned rules in Judo?
     
  17. Cirno

    Cirno Orange Belt

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    We have enough people breaking bones through throws; adding to the bodycount by letting people crank stuff will leave no one left for judo.
     
  18. pittfrog

    pittfrog Blue Belt

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    Omoplata is legal in Judo, it's called Sankaku Garami. the method of application would have to be slightly different: you use your triangled legs to immobilize the shoulder, then fold/pressure the arm to apply pressure to the elbow. I still question how you'd get this in competition, unless you had a ref that really was loose with how much time elapses before matte is called. The setup and transition would look like no progress was being made.

    I've never heard that you were only allowed to have one hook in for hadaka jime. In fact, this contradicts directly what my own instructors have shown me. What's the source for this?
     
  19. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Actually, for historical reasons you can do your kimura (called ude-garami or sometimes more explictly gyakyu-ude-garami (reverse ude-garami) just like you do in BJJ .. there's a reason it was named after a judo player. You're right that in practice its a shoulder lock when done correctly (same with the Americana or basic ude garami), but the judo "fiction" is that theoretically its an elbow lock, and its absolutely allowed in competition ... you can find examples of it being used in the olympics if you look. If the opponent or ref complains then you're competing under house rules in a local tournament - the equivalent to a BJJ tournament where they don't allow certain moves (like leg locks) which are normally part of BJJ, or hard throws.

    Omoplata is also okay ... you can find examples of it in a lot of judo ground work texts, as well as the kodokan website. There are no limits on hooks on hadaka jime. You're right about pressure on the chin and touching the face.

    You're right in part about tolerance of the guy reffing ... there are referees who just don't know the rules at low level tournaments (sort of like the De Pano - Monson tournament for submission grappling). But any rated referee (ie provincial or state or higher ... it goes up to national, then regional, then IJF) will be perfectly fine with them. Local clubs sometimes have weird rules though, and I think that's what you've been exposed to ... same thing that happens in BJJ, though a bit less understandable in judo since there are world wide standard rules ... there's no excuse for a judo ref not to know the rules.

    More explicitly about the judo rules interpretation: so long as a lock is controlling the elbow, it's irrelevant where the pain actually occurs. For instance, if you do a cross body lock on me (Ude Hishigi Judi Gatame) and my elbow is very flexible but I've had shoulder reconstruction surgery, the pain will be in my shoulder and not elbow (unfortunately like a lot of judoka I know this for a fact :icon_cry2). However, since the lock is controlling the elbow the referee won't care where I felt the pain ... the lock is on (controlling) the elbow.
     
  20. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

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    Thanks this was incredibly helpful! Thanks everyone! I will stick with what my instructors allow in class so as not to make them angry but its nice to have a better idea what is allowed in competition.
    To that one guy... yeah I could train BJJ in Korea and did previously. My work schedule just makes it incredibly inconvenient to train BJJ right now so I figured why not pick up Judo and learn some wicked takedowns instead. I plan to grapple my whole life. I figure I should learn Judo while I am young and my body recovers quickly. I was surprised how much I actually enjoy Judo despite all the rules.
     

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