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Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by OpethDrums, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. OpethDrums

    OpethDrums Banned Banned

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    i feel like i might have been underestimating the speed bag this whole time. i am good at it, but not compared to this guy. http://www.speedbagcentral.com
     
  2. MTnewbie

    MTnewbie Yellow Belt

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    Im thinking of buying a speed bag. But I dont understand how its going to help your punching since what you do doesnt even resembles a punch. Anyway all boxers do it so it should be great i guess. Should i get one? BTW we dont even have one at our gym, so Ive never even tried one.
     
  3. gingerbreadman

    gingerbreadman White Belt

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    speedballs are great, they help not because you practice perfect form punches, but because it increases your hand eye co-ordination and your hand speed. my recomendation, if you don't have one at your gym definatly try to get one.
     
  4. Detroit Devil

    Detroit Devil Corrupt Mayor of the OT

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    I agree it also helps with rythem double endrd bags are grate for hand eye
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Opeth, is your speed-bag on a free-moving swivel or one of those jobs that only go back-and-forth?
     
  6. Kamehameha

    Kamehameha Boricua

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    haha, my dad bought his tape and i've learned some cool stuff from that. Using elbows, backward rolls, different punches, great stuff beyond the usual rat-tat-tat workout. Even tho i think one should keep doin the usual speed bag stuff for training, tricks do help break the monotany.
     
  7. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    What type Kam? I hate those back-and-forth only things. That's cheating in my book. You're supposed to control the thing with your hits, not just become faster.
     
  8. k1 man

    k1 man Guest

    Its hard to do both hooks and jabs and still keep the rythm is a free movement swirvel
     
  9. k1 man

    k1 man Guest

    Now that I saw a video, the swirvel that goes front and back only seems pretty easy and cheesey
     
  10. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah that's the whole point.
     
  11. Placebo_

    Placebo_ Yellow Belt

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    We just got a speed bag where I train. Perfect timing, thanks.
     
  12. deadlyshaolin

    deadlyshaolin euphoria

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    Can somebody please clarify something for me? I never ::truly:: understood how speed bags help you fight better, practically speaking. I know that it improves coordination and hand speed, but the type of coordination you develop from working on a speed bag is different from the type required during combat... right?

    Thanks for the answers in advance.
     
  13. Trudge

    Trudge Purple Belt

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    ^^^ its all explained on the site mate
    basically a speed ball helps quite a lot for your inside game when you can't do picture perfect punches
    it helps with your head movement aswell
    ceiling to floor speedballs are the closest thing you can get to sparring without actually sparring aswell
    they are tough to master and after a few noisebleeds by bobbing when i should have weaved i have improved my sparring because of using the ball
    when you are sparring its hard to throw a perfect jab for example because peoples heads move, the ball mimicks this
     
  14. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You mean the double-end bag or slip bag, right?
     
  15. Trudge

    Trudge Purple Belt

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    yep
     
  16. deadlyshaolin

    deadlyshaolin euphoria

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    Okay, thanks for addressing my question. I can see how the double-end bag could help improve someone's fight game, but how about those regular speed bags? I'm talking about this kind:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Hand-eye coordination and hand-speed = GOOD. Sheeze.
     
  18. deadlyshaolin

    deadlyshaolin euphoria

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    My point, and I don't think it's a far-fetched one, is that working hand-eye coordination and hand-speed would be better served by other activities/drills (padwork, sparring, etc), rather than one in which the basic hitting motions are not even punches (but feature instead rapid rotations at the elbow).

    It's like saying playing DDR will improve your kicking because it improves your foot speed and coordination. Maybe it does, but you don't see every kickboxer/TKD practitioner playing DDR as standard practice -- but the speedbag is ubiquitous at every boxing gym. I'm just not getting it, is all. Appreciate the feedback though.
     
  19. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Nah you're pretty wrong. Your point is similar to the contention that once-plagued this board that sparring or kicking pads is all a person needs to do to be conditioned to get in the ring/cage. Sparring is the most practical method of practice, an can arguable be the best, but it is far from the only or most viable. Furthermore, you get better well-roundedness by LIMITING your training options.

    The speed-bag has been a staple of punching arts (both boxing and kickboxing) for years, and don't think you're the first to make the argument that it's unnecessary. However it remains, why? Well let's break down your point piece by piece.

    1) Yes the motions are actually punches. If you're not actually throwing punches when you use the speed-bag you're doing it wrong. It's not a clean jab-cross combination, but moreover the punches you throw resemble over-hand punches just done in succession. Over-hand punches accentuate the motion of throwing basically any punch that isn't the uppercut. Thus, your jab and cross will be sped up if you get good at using the speed-bag. You can also throw hooks on the speed-bag, to learn a little thing called rythm. Rythm is what it takes to land a hook on the bag moving at full-soeed. If you can't see the movement pattern of the bag, and time it correctly, you'll miss. Same with an opponent's head.

    2) There's a reason they call it a SPEED-bag and that it is seperate from other apparatus. The double-end bag is pretty useful, so are the focus mitts, so is sparring, but unless you're sparring a crackhead or your double-end bag is from another planet, nothing actually moves as fast as a speed-bag and requires that you be in constant hand-eye coordination with it at ALL times to do well. At the highest level a person can hit the speed-bag at full speed, while circling and moving their feet, with their eyes closed. But that is very rare. How does that translate to fighting? It means you'll land about 3-4 punches without even trying before your opponent knows what to do, if he's slower than you are.

    And actually, you'd be surprised who plays DDR, or more importantly, who dances. Boxers have been using dance as a particular method of improving footwork. I use Salsa-type moves in my footwork, Vilho (who posts here on occasion) takes Jazz dance to improve his footwork, and very notably Sugar Ray Robinson was an avid tap-dancer, and he was known for exceptional footwork and coordination. So actually, you DO see things like this at the Professional level.

    Before coming to the conclusion that the speed-bag is not as viable as other apparatus you should actually give it a whirl. And if you've already done it I'd say perfect it, I guarantee it will make worlds of difference in your ability to fire rapid and accurate punches at will, and keep sight of your opponent's head while doing so, better than sparring, focus pads, and even the double-end bag would if you translate it properly into your fighting style.
     
  20. deadlyshaolin

    deadlyshaolin euphoria

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    Thanks for the response. I haven't reached any hard conclusions about the speed bag yet, I just wasn't sure how useful it really was in terms of practical, translated value. You put out some interesting points though.

    Certain things make sense to me -- roadwork, interval training, strength training, padwork, drills, shadowboxing, sparring. Certain things don't -- politics, rocket science, women. The speed bag -- as I've seen it used (I tried searching google video and this is the closest thing that registered http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6092826596069112161&q=speed+bag ) just happens to fall in the latter category for me personally.

    You're hitting the target in the same general place every single time, and the bag follows a predictable trajectory. Most people I've seen use the speedbag fall into a rhythm, which takes away the uncertainty/unpredictability aspect.

    Wouldn't a drill like this ("punch-out" drill: http://www.rossboxing.com/heavybagdrills.wmv) be better at developing real punching speed?

    I'm not trying to be a hard ass here, just want to understand the allure of the speedbag.
     

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