Catch Wrestling applied to Gi BJJ

[KJGould]

BJJ Blackbelt Sam Kressin (under Machado 4th degree blackbelt Chris Haueter) who's also Assistant Coach in Catch Wrestling to Billy Robinson shows some of the things he's learned from Catch wrestling and applying to his gi BJJ game.

The Cradle is used in folkstyle wrestling as well, with catch wrestling being the forefather of amateur folkstyle and freestyle wrestling.

I think it's great to see a guy like Kressin positively embrace other arts and show how they can be mixed with each other organically and harmoniously which is the best approach to take with all grappling.

The Cradle is becoming more popular in BJJ and Roger Gracie essentially uses a cradle as part of one of his side control to mount transitions.

YouTube - ‪Training Journal 5-2-11 Some Catch as Catch Can Wrestling Applied to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu‬‏

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Fun! That poor, poor purple. hahaha.

The knee on belly to sitback over for the knee bar was sick!

 

[GBKJitsu]

Thats interesting, if thats BJJ influenced by catch wrestling, then I'd say I'm in the same boat.

I really picked up a big part of my game from (believe it or not) a Tony C kimura DVD that I have. You see him do it a few times in the video, its a type of "kimura wrist control." I use it all the time, both as a control and a set up for kimuras and arm bars.

But that Gi cradle is a work of genius, definitely have to incorporate that tonight at open mat :icon_twis

 

[DSGhST07]

I got that from Judo..ehh, to each its own

 

[Phronimos]

Tony Cecchine has been doing this for years. If Catch wrestling had the respect it was due years ago the whole BJJ phenomonan could have been circumvented and the world would be studying catch instead of BJJ.

Catch is great but uses a lot of pain moves, like cranks, crushes, pinches, nerve pressure point manipulations and the like that aren't very sportsmanlike, and seems quite a bit like dirty fighting.

I have used elements of Catch for years in my ground fighting and it is highly effective, as anyone who has studied it can tell you. It works perfectly with BJJ.

In my opinion it is a superior art, but doesn't have as many practicioners and it is difficult to find someone who can teach it. Hopefully this will change in future.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

I've been doing that since I started. It's important to not worry about the name, but see what works for you. See why it works, and if you can improve it.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Tony Cecchine has been doing this for years. If Catch wrestling had the respect it was due years ago the whole BJJ phenomonan could have been circumvented and the world would be studying catch instead of BJJ.

Catch is great but uses a lot of pain moves, like cranks, crushes, pinches, nerve pressure point manipulations and the like that aren't very sportsmanlike, and seems quite a bit like dirty fighting.

I have used elements of Catch for years in my ground fighting and it is highly effective, as anyone who has studied it can tell you. It works perfectly with BJJ.

In my opinion it is a superior art, but doesn't have as many practicioners and it is difficult to find someone who can teach it. Hopefully this will change in future.

Um, it's a superior art? That's the wrong attitude. You missed the point. Catch undervalues the guard, and the practitioners often have just as smug attitude as bjj fanatics or judo partisans. There's no open mind when you place one over the other.

There's more to catch than pressure pointing manipulations. Those things ARE unsportsmanlike if you are relying on them and ignoring good pressure, high-percentage positioning, etc.

BJJ took the world because they didn't care about rules. The founders were NHB fighters first. That's how it became popular. They took the risk of starting the UFC, being a major force for starting Pride, reaching out to teach people, etc.

There are a lot of BJJ places that are smug about their art, that don't emphasize takedowns or other things like they should. It isn't superior to catch, but not inferior either. You miss the point with that opinion.

 

[sdjudoka]

Great post:icon_chee
Sadly that attitude is common among all fighting arts.
To Phronimo's post, if submissions had not been taken out of wrestling bjj wouldn't have become as popular in the US because thousands of kids and young adults that train wrestling in high school and college would be experts.

 

[Wrathbeans]

that's what i like to see people using what they learn and applying it to other arts. people seem to forget catch guys like Karl gotch went around the world and learned a little bit from everybody.

 

[Corrosion]

I've used the cross-face cradle before in side control, but it doesn't seem to give me a lot of options other than making my opponent uncomfortable.

That rolling gi cradle was pretty badass.

 

[sharkatttack]

The cradle game is sick. I enjoy it as much as getting subs on people.

 

[Rod1]

I dont like the cradle, in my judo days this wrestler did it to me in competition, i muscled out and flattened.

I dont see how 2 arms can beat your neck and legs, as much as you can clasp a trained guy will be able to deadlift more than you can hold.

Now the gi cradle on the other hand pretty good, there is this side mount hold where you grab the belt between his legs and the shoulder in a kind of reverse cradle, that

 

[Shemhazai]

I use cradle variations a lot without ever having done folkstyle or catch. They're a good way to set up half guard passes and flatten a guy from side control, even if you can't connect the hands. I don't consider them very exotic, though. BJJ guys have been underhooking legs since the judo days.

@ Rod1: I don't get put in cradles a lot myself, so I don't have much experience with trying to muscle out of them, but I do recall being put in at least a couple that I couldn't just 'deadlift' out of (and I have a deadlift PR of 240 kg). I've never had anyone break out of my cradle grip at least. Getting your hands connected is the hard part, as a wary opponent will extend before you can get it, so you have to surprise him with it, or maybe threaten to pass/mount to make him curl up. Once the hands are connected, though, I think it's mostly a matter of breaking his posture (making sure the arm around the head is not down by his shoulders, but bending his head forward) to ensure that any pressure he exerts with his leg will break his posture further, making him weak. Also, when holding the cradle, I'm personally using my pectoral muscles much more than I'm using my arms. I guess that if you have a crazy strong neck, though, you might be able to break out.

 

[Rod1]

@ Rod1: I don't get put in cradles a lot myself, so I don't have much experience with trying to muscle out of them, but I do recall being put in at least a couple that I couldn't just 'deadlift' out of (and I have a deadlift PR of 240 kg). I've never had anyone break out of my cradle grip at least.

Now that i think about it, its more like a deep olympic squat because you are so bent that you dont really have that much power.

I used to be very good at breaking pins because i was very claustrophobic and we had this never give up rule at our gym where we couldnt really tap to a pin, we had to let go.

If you think about if from a mechanical point of view, the neck and the tights are much more powerful than 2 arms, as you pointed out, few people get out of the cradle, but few people have trained in such a way where breaking is a matter of do or dont.

Getting your hands connected is the hard part, as a wary opponent will extend before you can get it, so you have to surprise him with it, or maybe threaten to pass/mount to make him curl up. Once the hands are connected, though, I think it's mostly a matter of breaking his posture (making sure the arm around the head is not down by his shoulders, but bending his head forward) to ensure that any pressure he exerts with his leg will break his posture further, making him weak. Also, when holding the cradle, I'm personally using my pectoral muscles much more than I'm using my arms. I guess that if you have a crazy strong neck, though, you might be able to break out.

I dont think you need a crazy strong neck, in this case the trapezius are involved and powerful legs is something you should have anyway, the times i have used the cradle is against weaker people (mentally and physically) but against people my size i feel that the only reason i can hold its because they are being lazy.

The pecs in that position are not that strong, in that scenario i think you rely more on your grip to do the job (and the reason why when the grip is lost its easy to escape), if you yank and yank its nigh impossible unless there is a big strength difference.

At that time when i was cradled in competition my pr in squats was 160kg (bar on trapezius and as deep as i could).

I think its a good idea to research a little more into the subject, on a mere size comparison i think its obvious that the muscle advantage is for the guy being cradled, but the cradle puts said muscles in a position where its hard to apply strength.

 

[KJGould]

I dont like the cradle, in my judo days this wrestler did it to me in competition, i muscled out and flattened.

I dont see how 2 arms can beat your neck and legs, as much as you can clasp a trained guy will be able to deadlift more than you can hold.

Now the gi cradle on the other hand pretty good, there is this side mount hold where you grab the belt between his legs and the shoulder in a kind of reverse cradle, that

 

[KJGould]

Thats interesting, if thats BJJ influenced by catch wrestling, then I'd say I'm in the same boat.

I really picked up a big part of my game from (believe it or not) a Tony C kimura DVD that I have. You see him do it a few times in the video, its a type of "kimura wrist control." I use it all the time, both as a control and a set up for kimuras and arm bars.

But that Gi cradle is a work of genius, definitely have to incorporate that tonight at open mat :icon_twis

Sam teaches in Carslbad / Inland Empire btw, don't know how close that is to you.

 

[Slick_36]

I'm a lanky guy and the crossface into a cradle was a huge specialty of mine in wrestling. I've wrestled monsters at 171, I was a soft 160, and only about 2 guys out of 30 ever escaped my cradle. The times they did I didn't even really have it set in yet either. I can assure you that it's almost impossible to escape a good cradle, that's like a wrestler asking why a judoka doesn't just power out of an armbar.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

I consider Yoko Shiho Gatame a variation of a cradle. It just uses the gi. I've used cradles in both gi and nogi, and especially to break turtles. However, sometimes I used it in the past to even sweep from the guard.

However ever since hurting my shoulder last year, I stopped using them. Anytime I have my elbows more extended it hurts. Even the RNC had to be modified when I do it. I had to adapt my game to use good arm & protect my shoulder.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

If Catch wrestling had the respect it was due years ago the whole BJJ phenomonan could have been circumvented and the world would be studying catch instead of BJJ.

.

Yup, to bad for us Ken Shamrock was a mental case and coulnd't get past Royce.:icon_neut

 

[Rod1]

I'm a lanky guy and the crossface into a cradle was a huge specialty of mine in wrestling. I've wrestled monsters at 171, I was a soft 160, and only about 2 guys out of 30 ever escaped my cradle. The times they did I didn't even really have it set in yet either. I can assure you that it's almost impossible to escape a good cradle, that's like a wrestler asking why a judoka doesn't just power out of an armbar.

There is a big difference the cross armbar i assume is mechanically sound. It pits the massive back and hip muscles against a single bicep with the arm as leverage and the pelvis as fulcrum.

The cradle isnt as easily explained, im pretty sure there are technical mistakes as there are for example technical mistakes in the kesa gatame that a lot of judoka miss.

So i just put my experience, if it really comes to the arms, then how much can the average wrestler hold vs how much the average wrestler can generate from that position.