International Catalonia's Rebellion: 170,000 Spaniards in Madrid March Against Amnesty Plan for Catalan Secessionists

[TheLastEmperorReurns]

Human tax livestock.

Catalans produce more taxable income than the average Spaniard. Billions of dollars have been flowing out of Catalonia to the rest of Spain.

Is that what an in-depth economic analysis suggests?

When one economic region produces more taxable income than other economic regions in a country, the net result doesn't necessarily mean that the region contributing a larger share of tax revenue is being ripped off.

You're thinking of the situation in a zero-sum-game prism when it's a positive sum game with economies of scale and other factors at play.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Well its 92% because someone wasnt going to risk get their skulls caved by the spanish police just to vote no.

No doubt you are correct. But that means 40% of the region cares strongly enough about the vote to brave violent retaliation to vote for independence. In a non-violent setting, we'd see more no votes, but we also may have seen more yes votes as well, from the more timid independence supporters.

So whatever else we think about the issue, the referendum did show, under the circumstances, that there is substantial political will behind the pro-independence movement. I think this was @Ruprecht 's point.

 

[Arkain2K]

Of course, but the fact that 42% of eligible voters showed up and voted anyway is a really strong statement of political will.
The opposition asserts that they are the majority anyway, so really they should just answer the question properly with a referendum.
The election of the separatist government in Calalonia, and the turnout/results of this referendum, make a strong case for demanding it.

If there wasn't a political will for secession, it wouldn't have been written into the Spanish Constitution.

The only reason why Catalonia was given free-reign autonomy was because they pledged not to dabble in sedition, as codified in their Constitution.

I wonder if that Constitutional clause is cancelled, meaning Catalan politicians can hold all the secession referendums they want, but in exchange they would have to give up their special autonomy status, how many Catalans would actually want their politicians to change the status quo?

I'm perfectly okay with Catalonia to become just like any other ordinary Spanish provinces. Sometimes pampered people just need to be woken up with a dose of reality.

By the way, this squabble is in fact a Constitutional crisis, as it is the centralize piece of this conundrum, but very few people in this discussion actually want to talk about the Spanish Constitution at all, or whether should it be changed, or how it should be changed. Is it because Constitutional law is not all that important where they come from?

Why the referendum on Catalan independence is illegal
Sep 26th 2017 | by M.R. | MADRID

The Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic.

But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.

Home to 7.5m people (16% of the total) and accounting for 19% of national GDP, Catalonia is one of Spain’s richer regions. It has formed an integral part of Spain since the 16th century (and of the Kingdom of Aragón before that), but it has its own language and culture.

Until recently Catalan nationalists were content with home rule. Two things combined to increase support for independence. First, Spain’s Constitutional Tribunal rejected parts of a new statute that would have given Catalonia more autonomy. More importantly, nationalist politicians in Barcelona succeeded in deflecting against Madrid popular anger at the austerity that followed the bursting of Spain’s housing and financial bubble in 2009.

Parties campaigning for independence narrowly won a regional election in 2015. Ranging from bourgeois nationalists to anti-capitalist anarchists, they are united only by the demand for a referendum, which they call “the right to decide”. Earlier this month they rushed through the Catalan parliament one law ordering the referendum and a second requiring, if the Yes vote wins and irrespective of turnout, an immediate unilateral declaration of independence.

The Catalan government’s own pollster finds that while 70% want a referendum on the territory’s future, only 48% do if Spanish government doesn’t agree—which it emphatically does not.

According to the same poll, support for independence is slowly declining, and now stands at 41%. Mr Rajoy is relying on the courts to stop the referendum, arguing that the rule of law is fundamental to democracy. The Constitutional Tribunal has suspended the two laws. The Civil Guard arrested 14 senior people, most of them Catalan officials, involved in organising the referendum, and has seized 9.8m ballot slips.

Mr Puigdemont insists that the vote will go ahead. He is relying on popular mobilisation: tens of thousands protested against the arrests in Barcelona. But it is hard to see the vote being anything more than an unofficial consultation, similar to one held in 2014. Most supporters of “No” side won’t vote. If anything like the 2.3m alleged to have voted in 2014 were to turn out, Mr Puigdemont would claim victory.

Behind the confrontations lies a deadlock. Mr Puigdemont does not have enough popular or external support to impose independence. But Mr Rajoy’s bet that time and economic recovery would calm Catalonia has proven to be mistaken. A majority of Catalans remain unhappy with the status quo. Their discontent demands a political, rather than merely legal, response. After October 1st, a fresh regional election is likely to follow in Catalonia. And the Spanish government has accepted that it will have to discuss constitutional and other changes to try to anchor Catalonia more firmly in Spain. Dialogue is essential, but in a climate inflamed by confrontation, it will be neither quick nor easy.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17

 

[original doom]

Soooo Catalonia is now back with Spain ?

If this independance goes ahead are the other states really that useless ?

 

[Ruprecht]

I wonder if that Constitutional clause is cancelled, meaning Catalan politicians can hold all the secession referendums they want, but in exchange they would have to give up their special autonomy status, how many Catalans would actually want their politicians to change the status quo?

Well according to the July polling by their national Centre for Opinion Studies, 34.7% want Catalonia as an independent state.
21.7% want Catalonia to be a federal state.
30.5% want Catalonia as an autonomous community.
5.3% want it simply to be a region.
6.1% were undecided.
1.7% did not respond to the question.

 

[Arkain2K]

Barcelona set for huge rally against Catalan independence
Tens of thousands gather in city centre for pro-unity demonstration two days after Madrid took hold of Catalonia
By Sam Jones and Emma Graham-Harrison in Barcelona | Sunday 29 October 2017

Catalans assemble in the centre of Barcelona for a pro-unity demonstration on Sunday.
​

Tens of thousands have gathered in central Barcelona as the city prepares for a pro-unity demonstration two days after the Catalan parliament voted for independence and the Spanish government took control of the region.

Sunday’s demonstration, due to begin at 12 noon local time, has been called by the anti-independence group Societat Civil Catalana, which organised a similar event earlier this month that was attended by hundreds of thousands of people.

People with Spanish flags tied around their necks headed towards the Passeig de Gràcia, one of Barcelona’s main thoroughfares. Other carried white banners with the flags of Catalonia, Spain and the EU surrounded by a heart.

The event’s slogan is: “We are all Catalonia. Common sense for co-existence!” and the protest is expected to draw people from Catalonia and beyond as well as members of the Spanish government and pro-unity Catalan MPs.

Madrid claimed direct control of Catalonia for the first time in nearly four decades on Saturday, firing the regional government and police chief after a unilateral declaration of independence. But the deposed Catalan leader immediately vowed there would be peaceful resistance to the takeover.

Hours after the Spanish government formally announced his dismissal, and the replacement of his entire cabinet by counterparts hundreds of miles away, the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, put on an ostentatious display of normality with lunch at a restaurant in the centre of his home city.

As he toasted friends with red wine, posed for pictures with supporters in Girona and enjoyed the applause of fellow diners, all broadcast live on national TV, a pre-recorded video message went out promising to continue to work “to build a free nation”.

“We must do so resisting repression and threats, without ever abandoning, at any time, civic and peaceful conduct,” he said in the brief statement, adding that his government did not have or want “the argument of force”.

The Catalan republic that was declared on Friday is not legal under current Spanish law. As well as removing Puigdemont’s existing powers, Madrid has dissolved the Catalan parliament that declared independence, and called new elections for 21 December, the earliest possible date.

Spain’s deputy prime minister, Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría – who has managed the government’s response to the Catalan crisis – has been appointed to run Catalonia on a day-to-day basis until then. But the string of government orders published on Saturday morning provide only the outline for Madrid’s takeover. Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy now faces the challenge of implementing it.

The region has been officially self-governing since its statute of autonomy was signed in 1979, as Spain returned to democracy following the death of dictator General Francisco Franco in 1975. Many of the thousands of supporters of independence who were weeping and celebrating on the streets of Barcelona and other towns on Friday had pledged peaceful resistance to Madrid’s orders even before Puigdemont’s carefully worded call for resistance.

Activists have offered to form human chains around buildings to protect officials, some of whom are expected to face arrest and possible jail sentences for their role in both the October referendum and the declaration of independence that followed.

Some of the region’s 200,000 civil servants have said they will not accept orders from Madrid, and one Catalan union has also called a 10-day strike starting tomorrow in support of the new republic, although larger groups have not joined them.

Josep Lluís Trapero, head of the regional Mossos d’Esquadra police, who won praise for his response to the August terrorist attacks, has been the only senior official to say he will comply with Madrid, accepting a demotion to commissar.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-rally-against-catalan-independence-catalonia

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[JDragon]

Well according to the July polling by their national Centre for Opinion Studies, 34.7% want Catalonia as an independent state.
21.7% want Catalonia to be a federal state.
30.5% want Catalonia as an autonomous community.
5.3% want it simply to be a region.
6.1% were undecided.
1.7% did not respond to the question.

In other words, 65.3% did not say they wanted Catalonia to become independent. That's perfectly in Line with the referendum results. And people this thread have the incredible audacity to call unionists traitors. Seems like opposite day to me.

 

[Ruprecht]

In other words, 65.3% did not say they wanted Catalonia to become independent. That's perfectly in Line with the referendum results. And people this thread have the incredible audacity to call unionists traitors. Seems like opposite day to me.

That's what the polls indicate, although those answers seem to vary quite considerably depending on who conducts the poll and exactly what question is asked. On the other hand, polls also indicated that 85% of Catalonians wanted the question answered with a referendum, and it's clear the independence movement was counting on the referendum not being allowed (and the heavy handed response) to increase their support.

 

[Arkain2K]

it's clear the independence movement was counting on the referendum not being allowed (and the heavy handed response) to increase their support.

I agree that there's no question that the separatists decided to take the illegal route and went ahead to break the law anyway, after repeated warnings by the Supreme Court, is because they're looking for sympathy, especially from the international community.

The Catalan regional government insists that they wanted "dialogue", but they contradicted that very claim by chosing not to introduce and pursue a Constitutional Amendment to change the status quo (like say, voluntarily giving up regional autonomy in exchange for a referendum), which is the legal and proper approach that would surely lead to plenty of dialogues they supposely seeks, in the national Parliament as well as with the average José in the streets, no matter how it turns out.

That right there tells me this is all just intentional shit-stirring from a declining movement desparate to change the tide, as the poll numbers shows that the separatist demographic have been shrinking for years now.

They clearly did not expect their illegal activities to back-fire so spectacularly and decisively. Almost everything went as planned, from the police crackdown on law-breakers to the dismissal of the Catalan regional government who doesn't give a shit about the Constitution, but their biggest mistake was not anticipating that the quiet majority in Catalonia actually decided to stand up against the loud minority who does not represent their view, and basically everyone in the international community stands firmly by Madrid and the Unionists in Catlonia.

Play stupid games, win stupid prize.

 

[Arkain2K]

Catalonia election: Puigdemont could run, "if he's not in jail"

Spain's foreign minister has repeated his government's position that the sacked Catalan leader could run in new elections in December, but stressed that meant only if he was not in jail.

Alfonso Dastis spoke as a huge rally for Spanish unity was held in Catalonia's largest city, Barcelona.

Carles Puigdemont was removed from office after Madrid stripped Catalonia of autonomy for declaring independence.

Spain's central government has now taken control of Catalan institutions.

Spain's chief prosecutor is preparing to file criminal charges against Mr Puigdemont and other Catalan officials for breaching Spanish law.

This could possibly happen as soon as Monday, the first working day since the independence declaration and the Spanish counter-measures.

Mr Puigdemont has said he does not recognise the order from Madrid removing him from power.

Mr Dastis told Sky News: "We are not taking autonomy away from Catalonia. We are just re-establishing it, in fact."

He added: "Reality is already sinking in, will continue sinking in and they will realise that they cannot do something without the authority of law and they will be usurping authority."

Meanwhile, Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido has written to all police officers in Catalonia asking for their loyalty as a "new era" begins in the region.

He reminded members of the regional police, who are now under direct control from Madrid, of their duty to obey orders and to guarantee "the rights and liberties of all".

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford, in Madrid, says arresting Mr Puigdemont is likely to spark protests - and is perhaps one of the reasons why the interior minister has written this letter.

Senior police officers have told the BBC that they have already complied with an order to remove framed photographs of the sacked leader from police stations across the region.

Before Madrid took over the Catalan government, the region had one of the greatest levels of self-government in Spain.

It has its own parliament, police force and public broadcaster, as well as a government and president, though those have now been dismissed.

Catalans had a range of powers in many policy areas from culture and environment to communications, transportation, commerce and public safety.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41798254

 

[Goonerview]

Barcelona set for huge rally against Catalan independence
Tens of thousands gather in city centre for pro-unity demonstration two days after Madrid took hold of Catalonia
By Sam Jones and Emma Graham-Harrison in Barcelona | Sunday 29 October 2017

Catalans assemble in the centre of Barcelona for a pro-unity demonstration on Sunday.
​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-rally-against-catalan-independence-catalonia

Bussed in by George Soros and other globalists.

It's so f**king obvious.

Spain are trying to change the narrative.

 

[Goonerview]

Catalonia election: Puigdemont could run, "if he's not in jail"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41798254

Catalan needs LEADERSHIP. A Che Guevara/Eamonn De Valera type that will be willing to fight/die for independence.

I would love Trump to recognise Catalonia.

 

[Goonerview]

Is that what an in-depth economic analysis suggests?

When one economic region produces more taxable income than other economic regions in a country, the net result doesn't necessarily mean that the region contributing a larger share of tax revenue is being ripped off.

You're thinking of the situation in a zero-sum-game prism when it's a positive sum game with economies of scale and other factors at play.

Catalonia has historically been an autonomous region. Own culture, language, ethnicity DIFFERENT from Spain.

This isn't just another place/region.

 

[Goonerview]

Anti-separatist supporters plan big demonstration in Catalonia
Alex Rossi | Saturday 28 October 2017​

http://news.sky.com/story/anti-separatist-supporters-plan-big-demonstration-in-catalonia-11103413

Paid for by Soros and globalists.

 

[Goonerview]

Fair enough, but isn’t it the case in any nation that there are wealthier areas that subsidize poorer parts of the nation?

Look, Catalonia has its own culture, heritage, language, ethnicity ... all different from Spain.

 

[Goonerview]

Same billions they need to spend to establish foreign missions, new government structures and military if they break from Spain. With no one in Europe willing to do business with them and companies moving out to stay in the EU zone, they're looking 50% unemployment within a year.

Money talks. People will do business with people who will make them money.

 

[Skulli]

They are idiots for doing this without organizing some sort of militia prior to this.

Freedom is not given it is earned, usually in blood.

Fight for your independance or be whores of spanish bums.