Carson: 'Darwin influenced by Satan.'

Codger said:
I have faith in his word - he said he'd accept an example of a new feature and I've made the effort to find him one. I'm sure he'll see this proves he was mistaken.
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A noble effort on your part but don't underestimate who you're up against here. TCK will just say that the lizard is still a lizard and didn't transform in to a pussy cat so your example proves nothing. He's had a mountain of data thrown at him and it just bounces off like a rubber ball hitting an iron kettle at 100 mph.

Good example on your part thought, and interesting. I don't see how a reasonable person can ignore all this evidence and plow forward in denial but it's fascinating, if eternally frustrating, to watch.
 
Codger said:
Here you go http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

Lizards introduced to an island in the 70s evolved new valves in their gut to allow them to take advantage of the new diet available.

That fits your request perfectly yes?
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At first glance this would appear to be the kind of example I'm looking for. But what kind of thinker would I been to just accept something at first glance :). I shall read up on this. Thanks for the input.
 
TheComebackKid said:
At first glance this would appear to be the kind of example I'm looking for. But what kind of thinker would I been to just accept something at first glance :). I shall read up on this. Thanks for the input.
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That's cool. Just promise me you'll go I to it with an open mind and read up on it rather that just trying to find a reason to dismiss it.
 
Codger said:
That's cool. Just promise me you'll go I to it with an open mind and read up on it rather that just trying to find a reason to dismiss it.
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LogicalInsanity said:
I can't wait for his response /dismissal.

Should be very comical
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Why do you nonbelievers always insist creationists need to have an "open mind?" Why don't you for once dare yourselves to have an open mind to the possibility that an eternal Being formed this universe and dictates all of the rules? Or does "open mind" only work for your narrative?
 
TheComebackKid said:
Rehab and LI...stop all that hatin! Its not good for you.
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Dude, I'm not a hater, I like you man. You've been a little frustrating for me lately and I've given you some shit that I think you have earned but there's no hate in my heart, heck I'm trying to help you. I've tried to meet you halfway in this conversation by not bashing you for your religious beliefs and I have and will continue to entertain the concept that there could even be a Creator behind all of this. You, however, have been given some quite compelling and fascinating evidence that evolution is real, observable, and occurring and I don't think you've once responded with "well now that's interesting and you may have a point" or something of that nature. You've coined and repeated the term "evolutionist" as if it's a competing religion to Christianity and you seem to be as open-minded on the subject as a hard-core evangelical Christian talking to a Rastafarian. If my tone is sometimes derogatory I'm sorry, but I'm an incorrigible wise-ass and you know this.

I am not, however, a hater. I feel the glow every day bro, every day.

Thai Domi said:
Why do you nonbelievers always insist creationists need to have an "open mind?" Why don't you for once dare yourselves have an open mind to the possibility that an eternal Being formed universe and dictates all of the rules? Or does "open mind" only work for your narrative?
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I wouldn't call myself a "non-believer" but you're really stereotyping here. Just because I think that the Abrahamic texts are full of made-up stories that doesn't mean I don't have the vision to conceive of a Creator. The universe seems to me to be way too purposeful and orderly to be one big coincidence, and I continue to consider that. Of course we haven't interacted to consider this an introduction.
 
Thai Domi said:
Why do you nonbelievers always insist creationists need to have an "open mind?" Why don't you for once dare yourselves to have an open mind to the possibility that an eternal Being formed this universe and dictates all of the rules? Or does "open mind" only work for your narrative?
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Never once have I ever said I don't believe in God
 
Final Rehab said:
Dude, I'm not a hater, I like you man. You've been a little frustrating for me lately and I've given you some shit that I think you have earned but there's no hate in my heart, heck I'm trying to help you. I've tried to meet you halfway in this conversation by not bashing you for your religious beliefs and I have and will continue to entertain the concept that there could even be a Creator behind all of this. You, however, have been given some quite compelling and fascinating evidence that evolution is real, observable, and occurring and I don't think you've once responded with "well now that's interesting and you may have a point" or something of that nature. You've coined and repeated the term "evolutionist" as if it's a competing religion to Christianity and you seem to be as open-minded on the subject as a hard-core evangelical Christian talking to a Rastafarian. If my tone is sometimes derogatory I'm sorry, but I'm an incorrigible wise-ass and you know this.

I am not, however, a hater. I feel the glow every day bro, every day.



I wouldn't call myself a "non-believer" but you're really stereotyping here. Just because I think that the Abrahamic texts are full of made-up stories that doesn't mean I don't have the vision to conceive of a Creator. The universe seems to me to be way too purposeful and orderly to be one big coincidence, and I continue to consider that. Of course we haven't interacted to consider this an introduction.
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If we have a Creator, and I believe we do, do you think He would allow his communication to us to be distorted?

Yes, there are impostors - Kuran, etc., and there are false interpretations (Rome, prosperity, etc.) but anyone who is truly seeking Him will find Him in His Word.
 
Thai Domi said:
If we have a Creator, and I believe we do, do you think He would allow his communication to us to be distorted?

Yes, there are impostors - Kuran, etc., and there are false interpretations (Rome, prosperity, etc.) but anyone who is truly seeking Him will find Him in His Word.
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I appreciate the response and enjoy this line of conversation but I don't want to derail the thread into a purely theological debate. In regards to evolutionary theory, I do think that folk who are most dogmatically connected to the letter of the Abrahamic texts are most resistant to logical inferences in favor of said theory.

I'll bite on one thing though. You say that there are imposters and false interpretations, but how do you know that your beliefs aren't formed by those forces? Your beliefs, whatever they are, are presumably formed by words penned by men, right? How do you know that the Muslims/Jews/Buddhists/Mormons/Rastafarians/Scientologists, etc didn't get it right? Seems more like fantasy football than ultimate truth to me.
 
ripskater said:
I went to high school and took a college class about evolution. There is no proof of evolution. It is a theory. I was interested in finding out the evidence. And it just wasn't there for me to believe it.
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Outside of the mountain of evidence which is confirmed across multiple disciplines? Yeah, other than that there's nothing. :rolleyes:

Guess you were smoking up during those classes or went to a school that taught creationism as a competing theory. That or you don't know what evidence is. In this very thread a poster gave you a link to an example where we observed evolution and there are other examples as well. I'm not sure what more you want.
 
Final Rehab said:
I appreciate the response and enjoy this line of conversation but I don't want to derail the thread into a purely theological debate. In regards to evolutionary theory, I do think that folk who are most dogmatically connected to the letter of the Abrahamic texts are most resistant to logical inferences in favor of said theory.

I'll bite on one thing though. You say that there are imposters and false interpretations, but how do you know that your beliefs aren't formed by those forces? Your beliefs, whatever they are, are presumably formed by words penned by men, right? How do you know that the Muslims/Jews/Buddhists/Mormons/Rastafarians/Scientologists, etc didn't get it right? Seems more like fantasy football than ultimate truth to me.
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The accuracy of biblical prophecy.

And please note the non inclusion of "Jews" in your retort.

And I do not agree that the bible is the words of men, but the written account from men, inspired by the eternal God.
 
Codger said:
That's cool. Just promise me you'll go I to it with an open mind and read up on it rather that just trying to find a reason to dismiss it.
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I promise Codger as long as you promise to be just as open minded.

Ok, now that we're both being open minded answer this for me. Reading over what I think is the original paper published on this I came across a pretty interesting tidbit. Keep in mind this comes from those who did the study and wrote the paper...not skeptics and not creationists. The article states:

Genetic mitochondrial DNA analyses indicate that the lizards currently on Pod Mrčaru are indeed P. sicula and are genetically indistinguishable from lizards from the source population
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290806/

What this is saying is that the new "evolved" lizards with the cecal valves are genetically identical to the "pre-evolved" lizards that were originally dropped off there. That means no new genetic information has been introduced to these "evolved" lizards. That means there hasn't been a mutation or any other kind of mechanism at play here that would create new features.

What is most likely happening is epigenetic variation where genes get turned off and on. The change is happening at the transcriptional level without any actual changes to the DNA sequence. That means the Biblical assertion that everything reproduces after its own kind has not been violated.

Please note that I'm not asserting this is definitely the answer just pointing out a problem in the claim that this is observational macro evolution.

Ok, I'm keeping an open mind. I told you exactly what the objection is to this example with specificity. This is your turn to either show me where I'm going wrong in my thinking or concede that this is a potential example at best and most likely not an example at all.
 
Thai Domi said:
Do you believe in the God of the bible? The God of Genesis? The God of Revelation? The God that Paul wrote on behalf of?
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LI just like to talk shit about everyone else's beliefs without taking any actual stands of his own. If you tell him he believes in God he'll tell you he doesn't. If you then tell him he doesn't believe in God he'll tell you thats not true either. He likes to have things both ways. And no that is not a gay joke.
 
TheComebackKid said:
LI just like to talk shit about everyone else's beliefs without taking any actual stands of his own. If you tell him he believes in God he'll tell you he doesn't. If you then tell him he doesn't believe in God he'll tell you thats not true either. He likes to have things both ways. And no that is not a gay joke.
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Yeah but it's still fair to give him an opportunity to choose.

It's actually our duty.
 
kpt018 said:
Outside of the mountain of evidence which is confirmed across multiple disciplines? Yeah, other than that there's nothing. :rolleyes:

Guess you were smoking up during those classes or went to a school that taught creationism as a competing theory. That or you don't know what evidence is. In this very thread a poster gave you a link to an example where we observed evolution and there are other examples as well. I'm not sure what more you want.
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Link some evidence for non life coming alive on its own. Until you can show this, you're just pushing a religious belief.
 
Final Rehab said:
Dude, I'm not a hater, I like you man. You've been a little frustrating for me lately and I've given you some shit that I think you have earned but there's no hate in my heart, heck I'm trying to help you. I've tried to meet you halfway in this conversation by not bashing you for your religious beliefs and I have and will continue to entertain the concept that there could even be a Creator behind all of this. You, however, have been given some quite compelling and fascinating evidence that evolution is real, observable, and occurring and I don't think you've once responded with "well now that's interesting and you may have a point" or something of that nature. You've coined and repeated the term "evolutionist" as if it's a competing religion to Christianity and you seem to be as open-minded on the subject as a hard-core evangelical Christian talking to a Rastafarian. If my tone is sometimes derogatory I'm sorry, but I'm an incorrigible wise-ass and you know this.

I am not, however, a hater. I feel the glow every day bro, every day.
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Rehab, I'm going to say this very clearly and I want you to meditate on it, internalize it, and accept it.

Its...all...good my man. It's always all good. You don't have to apologize for calling me out on some perceived bullshit you think I'm spouting. I don't take offense to it and it has no bearing on what I think about you as a person. You've always maintained a level of honesty in our exchanges and that is all I ask for. So if you think what I wrote was some straight up bullshit...then say so! Just be intellectually honest about it. Be ready to consider what I have to say in return. Don't be like LI and just make up things just to be a little prick. Thats when I get annoyed and lose respect for a poster.

And the reason I may seem closeminded is because this is not the first time I've considered God and evolution. Remember I was indoctrinated with evolution so there was a period in my life where I accepted it with no questions asked. Then I asked a few questions and was completely unsatisfied with the answers. I asked a few more and started to realize, holy shit, this theory is built on nothing but sand.

And yes, I do consider evolution a religion for many people.

And no I don't really think you're a hater. I was being lighthearted.
 
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