Carlos Monzon vs Roy Jones Jr

[nicedistraction]

He didn't really hang with Sosa as much as he flurried and ran. He dropped Merqui on the outside.

Also, in the first fight with Hopkins Roy looked his absolute most uncomfortable when Bernard was right up on him. Not saying this means a whole lot because Carlos wasn't THAT great of an inside Fighter, Briscoe gave him problems for that reason. But if Jones can't knock Monzon out, one HAS to wonder if he fades down the stretch in a 15 rounder and gets hurt.

well hold up now. roy wasnt flurrying and running against sosa. in fact he was quite frankly beating the hell out of him. out side AND inside. the best combination ive ever seen roy throw was with his back against the ropes and and sosa trying to dig in on him. now that i think about it roy had some excellent moments on the inside. all his best damage was with either sosas or his own back on the rope.

 

[Sinister]

I don't agree with that because of that one combination he was beating the Hell out of Sosa in and out. I think you're sensationalizing a bit of Roy's tactics. He did flurry and get out of there, but he did so very hard and fast. That doesn't necessarily make him a vastly effective inside fighter, which he never really was, but a guy who has an effective method of getting out of there when pressed.

 

[nicedistraction]

that one combo was just an example. ive watched this fight dozens of times so i know it inside and out and roy does some very very effective inside work especially against a guy like sosa. of course roy was never an inside fighter but he could do what was necisisary.

 

[Sinister]

I've also watched it a dozen times. And just don't see what you're seeing. I see Roy throw a couple of punches and step around, to reverse the scenario. Not stay inside and beat the Hell out of the guy. He didn't do to Merqui what Briscoe did to Monzon.

 

[nicedistraction]

of course he didnt beat him up on the inside. roy is as much of an outside fighter as you can be its what his physical skill set calls for. but when forced to fight on the inside he landed hard to the body and head then made an exit, and its not like they were pot shots. he was digging in pretty hard with 3-4 combination.

my original point of contention was the flurry and run thing, which maybe i misunderstood. my impression was that you were saying roy was landing on the fly and not landing hard, when really he was planting his feet and throwing hard shots beating sosa up pretty bad

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Knock kneed Sosa specialized in blocking punches with his face and coming back. If memory serves me correct, Sosa complained about the stoppage cuz he took worse/more punishment in other fights, but really the ref was doing him a big favor.

 

[Sinister]

of course he didnt beat him up on the inside. roy is as much of an outside fighter as you can be its what his physical skill set calls for. but when forced to fight on the inside he landed hard to the body and head then made an exit, and its not like they were pot shots. he was digging in pretty hard with 3-4 combination.

my original point of contention was the flurry and run thing, which maybe i misunderstood. my impression was that you were saying roy was landing on the fly and not landing hard, when really he was planting his feet and throwing hard shots beating sosa up pretty bad

No, we're not that far apart. Looking at the same thing, just interpreting a little differently. But I also don't agree with that last sentence, but I'll explain why below in response to Cero:

Knock kneed Sosa specialized in blocking punches with his face and coming back. If memory serves me correct, Sosa complained about the stoppage cuz he took worse/more punishment in other fights, but really the ref was doing him a big favor.

I can't say as I agree with this. The complaints (not just of Sosa, but of the commentators and Lederman) was that the ref was unfamiliar with Merqui. The dude is just wobbly, that's how he stands and walks. This ref would have probably also stopped both of the Charles Williams fights, and the Toney fight, because when Sosa gets hit, he either moves erratically or covers up. It's not that he took more damage in other fights, it that he wasn't as hurt as it seemed.

Similar to the stoppage of Urango/Alexander. Urango was more hurt against Bailey, and knocked Randall out by getting stronger after getting up. THAT in and of itself isn't the point of the Alexander stoppage, it was the ref being unfamiliar with Urango's ability to recover.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I will say this, having names like Merqui Sosa or a bloated up aged Vinny Paz as being relevant to this fight is amusing. Monzon is sooooo many standard deviations better than those guys.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

No, we're not that far apart. Looking at the same thing, just interpreting a little differently. But I also don't agree with that last sentence, but I'll explain why below in response to Cero:



I can't say as I agree with this. The complaints (not just of Sosa, but of the commentators and Lederman) was that the ref was unfamiliar with Merqui. The dude is just wobbly, that's how he stands and walks. This ref would have probably also stopped both of the Charles Williams fights, and the Toney fight, because when Sosa gets hit, he either moves erratically or covers up. It's not that he took more damage in other fights, it that he wasn't as hurt as it seemed.

Similar to the stoppage of Urango/Alexander. Urango was more hurt against Bailey, and knocked Randall out by getting stronger after getting up. THAT in and of itself isn't the point of the Alexander stoppage, it was the ref being unfamiliar with Urango's ability to recover.

It's an interesting hypothesis about whether a referee should or should not alter his decisions or factor into his decisions a fighter's reputation to recover. I think for sure, at bare minimum a subliminal level, it must happen, but debatable if it should happen.

 

[The Fan Man]

Carlos Monzon is so good at maintaining distance and breaking up a guys rhythm that I think this would be a more interesting fight than some people are giving credit. Roy Jones was so drained at 160 that I have some questions about his endurance against a guy like Monzon, who you have to pressure. If Jones was able to grind and bully for 10+ rounds in addition to his already ridiculous skill level, he could knock Monzon out.

 

[M o A]

Not even up for debate....Monzon would have wiped the floor with him.

 

[Sinister]

It's an interesting hypothesis about whether a referee should or should not alter his decisions or factor into his decisions a fighter's reputation to recover. I think for sure, at bare minimum a subliminal level, it must happen, but debatable if it should happen.

I can agree with that. But on some level, for Title Fight referees there's no excuse. They should be as educated as the fighters are, right? I'm positive Merk watched tape on Merqui, I don't think Jones threw that lighting bolt of a right hand just as Merqui was pulling back out of chance. Merqui was always more vulnerable on the back foot.

So why would a ref not know a guy? I have to believe a Smoger, or Byrd, Bayless, or Weeks would not have made the same call so hastily. Cole, or Mercante Jr. may have, but that's precisely why those guys suck.

 

[AllKnowing]

I'm convinced many of you aren't familiar with a 'Prime' Roy Jones. The post-Ruiz, melted down Roy Jones is a far cry from the guy who dominated at super middle and light heavy for years.

Prime Roy have would beaten Monzon soundly, possibly knocking him out.

 

[Sinister]

Eh, suggestion of that only shows that you're not familiar with 'Prime' Monzon.

Roy Jones did not attempt his flashy reckless in-ring antics against fighters he knew were well-educated on how to box. 'Prime' Roy Jones did not knock out Toney, or Hopkins, though he did win decisions by good margins. Especially against Hopkins he was very reserved in that bout. He also didn't knock out a 40 year-old McCallum, and many feel that fight was scored a lot wider for Jones than it should have been.

Monzon at middleweight was as good as any of those guys at middleweight, and was never knocked out in 100 Professional bouts, a lot of which were against World Class opposition.

I see no reason to think Roy would breeze through this fight.

 

[AllKnowing]

Suggesting Roy dominates or stops Monzon isn't a stretch at any junction. Roy's previous dominant performances against the likes of Toney and Hopkins are more than enough to rationalize how well he'd do against a less technical (compared to Toney and Hopkins at least), slower, smaller Monzon.

Guys like Toney and Hopkins have shown all the intangibles exhibited by Monzon, in addition to a superior skill set and ring IQ. Roy had no problem defeating either guy when young and in his physical prime. Roy was so dominant at these weights that he he spent a large portion of his career at light heavyweight, campaigning against naturally bigger guys. Not to mention his stop at heavyweight.

Based on his body of work and level of success at various weight classes, I don't see any reason to believe why he wouldn't have similar success against a middleweight Monzon.

 

[Oogie Sharp]

Jones by about 8 rounds. This sucker's going the distance.

 

[Sinister]

Suggesting Roy dominates or stops Monzon isn't a stretch at any junction. Roy's previous dominant performances against the likes of Toney and Hopkins are more than enough to rationalize how well he'd do against a less technical (compared to Toney and Hopkins at least), slower, smaller Monzon.

Guys like Toney and Hopkins have shown all the intangibles exhibited by Monzon, in addition to a superior skill set and ring IQ. Roy had no problem defeating either guy when young and in his physical prime. Roy was so dominant at these weights that he he spent a large portion of his career at light heavyweight, campaigning against naturally bigger guys. Not to mention his stop at heavyweight.

Based on his body of work and level of success at various weight classes, I don't see any reason to believe why he wouldn't have similar success against a middleweight Monzon.

I didn't find Roy's performance against Bernard all that dominating, despite what the cards suggest, nor do I think he had no problems, specifically against Hopkins. And I'm not sure where you're getting that Hopkins and Toney had such a vastly superior ring IQ. Again, just sounds to me as if you're speaking simply of the generation of fighters you know about, thus, dismissing one you don't.

For one, Roy didn't move to light heavyweight BECAUSE he was so dominant at middleweight and super middleweight. He moved up because he had issues cutting the weight, suggesting that against a Prime Middleweight Monzon, he might be apt to fade down the stretch from the fatigue of making the weight. His bout against Bernard was his absolute last at that weight, and frankly, he looked like shit during the middle rounds of that bout. There's also been noted mention of Fighters Roy specifically skipped over during those times, so perhaps his match-makers didn't feel he would be all that dominant against specific types of opposition.

It's reasonable to assume that Roy's speed would give Monzon trouble, it would give anyone trouble. I'd even be inclined to pick Roy in a decision win based on his speed and awkward attacks. But I just don't get feeling this is an easy victory. Monzon was never an easy victory for any Fighter, not one. And I don't see a reason to completely discredit one of the greatest Middlweights of all time as simply a walk-over just because we're talking about Roy Jones. Stylistically, Monzon poses a few problems of his own for Roy, he had an incredibly educated jab that he threw more than either Toney or Hopkins. He was a better combination puncher than those two, and he applied more pressure and rough tactics. His mentality was different, unlike Toney and Bernard, Monzon wasn't going to wait for you to come to him and try to out-think you. He applied intelligent pressure, baiting opposition into responses, and counter-punched well. Add in the fact that he could go to the body without being deterred much by the fast fighters he did face and their counter-punching speed, and you have some trouble for Roy.

 

[AllKnowing]

I didn't find Roy's performance against Bernard all that dominating, despite what the cards suggest, nor do I think he had no problems, specifically against Hopkins. And I'm not sure where you're getting that Hopkins and Toney had such a vastly superior ring IQ. Again, just sounds to me as if you're speaking simply of the generation of fighters you know about, thus, dismissing one you don't.

For one, Roy didn't move to light heavyweight BECAUSE he was so dominant at middleweight and super middleweight. He moved up because he had issues cutting the weight, suggesting that against a Prime Middleweight Monzon, he might be apt to fade down the stretch from the fatigue of making the weight. His bout against Bernard was his absolute last at that weight, and frankly, he looked like shit during the middle rounds of that bout. There's also been noted mention of Fighters Roy specifically skipped over during those times, so perhaps his match-makers didn't feel he would be all that dominant against specific types of opposition.

It's reasonable to assume that Roy's speed would give Monzon trouble, it would give anyone trouble. I'd even be inclined to pick Roy in a decision win based on his speed and awkward attacks. But I just don't get feeling this is an easy victory. Monzon was never an easy victory for any Fighter, not one. And I don't see a reason to completely discredit one of the greatest Middlweights of all time as simply a walk-over just because we're talking about Roy Jones. Stylistically, Monzon poses a few problems of his own for Roy, he had an incredibly educated jab that he threw more than either Toney or Hopkins. He was a better combination puncher than those two, and he applied more pressure and rough tactics. His mentality was different, unlike Toney and Bernard, Monzon wasn't going to wait for you to come to him and try to out-think you. He applied intelligent pressure, baiting opposition into responses, and counter-punched well. Add in the fact that he could go to the body without being deterred much by the fast fighters he did face and their counter-punching speed, and you have some trouble for Roy.

I'm thinking we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't want to take anything away from Monzon because he was a great fighter who clearly distinguished himself as the best middleweight of his time, and one of the premiere middleweights in history.

That said, the tools he had and used to defeat his opponents simply wouldn't be enough to fend off a fighter of JOnes' caliber. While Monzon possessed knockout power, a great chin, stamina and a will to win, he would be at a severe disadvantage against the faster, stronger, speedier Roy Jones. Monzon seemed to do best against opponents who came forward, and pressed him. Jones wouldn't do that. Utilizing his superior footwork and handspeed, he'd box from the outside and close the distance only when it benefited him to do so.

Monzon could possibly outwork Jones on the inside, and do some damage in exchanges, but Roy wasn't the kind of guy to languish on the inside, doubly so against dangerous opponents. I'm hard pressed to find anyone who forced a pre-heavyweight Roy to fight their fight. Griffin maybe?

Defensively, Monzon was there to be hit. He didn't have anything near the defensive capabilities of Hopkins or Toney. From what I've seen of him, he appeared to be rather flat footed, while offering little in the way of head movement. I don't envision JOnes having a hard time finding him.

Giving Monzon every benefit of the doubt, I think he loses a lopsided decision in a fight where he'd have his moments. However, from the footage I've seen of both men (having seen more of Jones admittedly), I believe he'd get blasted out of there in the late rounds.

I also happen to think Monzon loses to both Hagler and Hopkins.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Revisionist history really regarding the Hopkins-Jones match to use it as a barometer for much. Neither guy was prime, say Hopkins even greener. The division at the time was considered exceptionally weak, that fight was for a vacant title and there wasn't much hoopla for the fight. Hopkins even after jones had struggles with Segundo Mercado.

When Hopkins got a bit older and better, he became a bitch by demanding 60% of the purse in a rematch because he beat Trinidad and he did so because his reputation was riding higher than Jones who everyone was frustrated with because he wasn't fighting big fights.

A rematch would have meant a lot more, but Hopkins was wanted to ensure he got paid in case he lost.

Anyhow, Hopkins and Toney are great fighters no doubt, but neither were at the top of their game when Jones fought them. And that's why in some sort of hypothetical fight it's silly to pretend that they were to argue a point.

 

[nicedistraction]

Revisionist history really regarding the Hopkins-Jones match to use it as a barometer for much. Neither guy was prime, say Hopkins even greener. The division at the time was considered exceptionally weak, that fight was for a vacant title and there wasn't much hoopla for the fight. Hopkins even after jones had struggles with Segundo Mercado.

When Hopkins got a bit older and better, he became a bitch by demanding 60% of the purse in a rematch because he beat Trinidad and he did so because his reputation was riding higher than Jones who everyone was frustrated with because he wasn't fighting big fights.

A rematch would have meant a lot more, but Hopkins was wanted to ensure he got paid in case he lost.

Anyhow, Hopkins and Toney are great fighters no doubt, but neither were at the top of their game when Jones fought them. And that's why in some sort of hypothetical fight it's silly to pretend that they were to argue a point.

why do you refuse to acknowledge the injury to roys right hand?

yet you give the other guys passes on things they are at fault for