Can you kill a person with a rear naked choke?

[biscuitboy]

you best believe it

 

[Shemhazai]

The brain can survive several minutes of complete oxygen deprivation before brain damage occurs, sometimes even tens of minutes under special conditions, e. g. low temperature. A blood choke doesn't even cut off all of the blood supply to the brain, so this might (correct me if I'm wrong, those of you with medical degrees) even mean that the brain can withstand a RNC, triangle, etc. for an even longer period of time. Sure, it might be possible to kill someone with a blood choke if it is held for long enough, but I honestly don't see that as a particularly likely scenario for a number of reasons. Obviously a choke would never be held for that long in competition, seeing as the ref would call it pretty soon after a competitor goes unconscious. In a self defense situation, you are already free to GTFO once your adversary passes out, and staying around for several minutes to continue choking him is simply too risky in most scenarios. Besides, holding a choke tightly for several minutes on end, well - can you say 'lactic acid build-up'?

 

[Toujourpret]

Wow a whole lot of people on here who never took a CPR class.

4-6 minutes without O2 brain will start to die
10 minutes well on your way to serious brain death
20 min you're a piece of meat

On a side note it is why you see Navy Seals and Combat controllers be deprived of O2 and the instructors just stare at them like it is no big deal. They are very aware of the window they are working with.

 

[Sohan]

I wish I could RNC this thread.

How long would I have to hold it for?

 

[Mr. Switch]

The internal carotids contribute up to 80% of the blood supply to the brain (40% for each). The other 20% is given through the vertebral arteries. Depending on what anastamoses (alternative flows of blood) are available and intact within the Circle of Willis, you can have a varied length of time and pattern of ischemia for death when cutting off the ICAs in an RNC.

Listen to this man- but general rules of thumb are that you start to get brain death in a matter of minutes (rather than seconds).

 

[Cerberus87]

...the FBI must be shitting bricks with this thread

 

[SideofKO]

Ummm.. no, the loss of blood and O2 to the brain results in a total euphoria that increases in relative proportion to the amount of blood lost.

Next thread:

Can someone die by hanging themselves.

/sarcasm.

Seriously. Yes you can kill someone with a RNC. You'd have to hold on a while but it can be done. It's not something that is likely to happen in competition because of the referee and generally people will let go after the person passes out or taps out. But if it's held on long enough, you can kill someone with it.

In fact I seem to remember a news story about that same thing. If someone can find a link. It was about an MMA fighter who choked someone to death with an RNC.

 

[Belatucadros]

sideof - his name is in the first page of this thread, yeah. want to know how long he held it for

 

[codemonkey76]

Found this in a "brain facts" thing on the internets (but it was a .edu!)

Time until unconsciousness after loss of blood supply to brain = 8-10 sec
Time until reflex loss after loss of blood supply to brain = 40-110 sec

Nothing on death/brain damage

keep in mind that is after loss of blood supply, you are not gonna completely cut the blood supply to the brain with a RNC.

 

[GoDownOnHer]

Um yeah you can kill someone by choking them.

 

[codemonkey76]

The internal carotids contribute up to 80% of the blood supply to the brain (40% for each). The other 20% is given through the vertebral arteries. Depending on what anastamoses (alternative flows of blood) are available and intact within the Circle of Willis, you can have a varied length of time and pattern of ischemia for death when cutting off the ICAs in an RNC.

OK, you sound like you know what you are talking about, so I will ask you this question. Considering the blood supply that is affected during an RNC, is it the restriction of blood to the brain, or is it the barroreceptors being triggered into lowering the blood pressure that causes unconsciousness?

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I believe it is restriction of blood to the brain that causes unconsciousness. In one of my neuroscience II lectures during my second year of med school, we were given these statistics of requirements for blood flow to the brain:

- Average Cerebral Blood Flow = 50ml/100gm/minute
- Grey matter flow 80ml/100 gm/minute
- White matter flow 20-25 ml/100gm/minute

The brain is only 2% of the body weight, but requires about 15-20% of cardiac output (oxygenated blood pumped by the left heart to the rest of the body). Without proper oxygenation of the brain, you will get ischemia and possibly infarction.

The baroreceptor response is designed for homeostasis, or just maintenance of the blood pressure. It is true that cardiac sinus massage (actually a diagnostic and sometimes therapeutic tool, where a physician massages the carotid sinus, which contains the baroreceptors) can lead to bradycardia (slowing of heart rate). Severe bradycardia can lead to lightheadedness, fainting, loss of consciousness, etc.

However, a RNC is mainly compression of the carotid area, not necessarily a massage. Additionally, if you have been free rolling, chances are that your sympathetic response (fight or flight) is going strong and your heart rate is elevated (also from response to exercise), so bradycardia is probably highly unlikely. However, some individuals may have very sensitive baroreceptors, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that a bradycardia could contribute very minimally to the loss of consciousness.

 

[Shemhazai]

It is true that cardiac sinus massage (actually a diagnostic and sometimes therapeutic tool, where a physician massages the carotid sinus, which contains the baroreceptors) can lead to bradycardia (slowing of heart rate). Severe bradycardia can lead to lightheadedness, fainting, loss of consciousness, etc.

Is this the mechanism behind the elusive 'blood knockout' that some people claim will occur if the carotid is struck with enough force in the right manner?

 

[codemonkey76]

I believe it is restriction of blood to the brain that causes unconsciousness. In one of my neuroscience II lectures during my second year of med school, we were given these statistics of requirements for blood flow to the brain:

- Average Cerebral Blood Flow = 50ml/100gm/minute
- Grey matter flow 80ml/100 gm/minute
- White matter flow 20-25 ml/100gm/minute

The brain is only 2% of the body weight, but requires about 15-20% of cardiac output (oxygenated blood pumped by the left heart to the rest of the body). Without proper oxygenation of the brain, you will get ischemia and possibly infarction.

The baroreceptor response is designed for homeostasis, or just maintenance of the blood pressure. It is true that cardiac sinus massage (actually a diagnostic and sometimes therapeutic tool, where a physician massages the carotid sinus, which contains the baroreceptors) can lead to bradycardia (slowing of heart rate). Severe bradycardia can lead to lightheadedness, fainting, loss of consciousness, etc.

However, a RNC is mainly compression of the carotid area, not necessarily a massage. Additionally, if you have been free rolling, chances are that your sympathetic response (fight or flight) is going strong and your heart rate is elevated (also from response to exercise), so bradycardia is probably highly unlikely. However, some individuals may have very sensitive baroreceptors, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that a bradycardia could contribute very minimally to the loss of consciousness.

The reason i was under the impression that the bradycardia caused the unconsciousness not the deoxygenation of the brain, is i thought the brain could survive for some time with the oxygenated blood already in the brain before needing to shut down consciousness to conserve oxygen. Is it possibe for the person to go unconscious within say 3 seconds through the blood constriction alone?

 

[Higher Learning]

dam, a thread that began as embarrassingly lame as actually turned into something fascinating to read, great posts guys

 

[Krunked]

1:30 secs before irreversable brai damage is caused i balieve and another 30 secs before they are completely 100% dead

 

[nhlkdog411]

how long does it take people to die when they get hung for a crime?

theres your answer

or not since hanging breaks the neck

 

[bob]

you dont need to ask IF.... just ask how long...you kidding me??

 

[spirez]

This thread has made me think! I've RNC'd a couple of dudes that were kicking off but not thought much about it really. I've never passed them out, just squeezed enough til they start to go out then let go. That's usually enough to scare someone into leaving you alone.

Might have to consider my actions a bit more in the future though! I know it's unlikely you'll kill someone from holding a few seconds after they pass out but someone made a point about their breathing stopping and that really is something to think about...

Lucky i'm first aid trained though, ha!

Chokes v joint locks in self defense is an interesting one though as there's often no evidence that you've choked someone out, but if you break something you're getting done for ABH/GBH

 

[BreezerD**]

Hmm I dunno, if you killed someone with a choke there most certainly would be evidence.

But yeah I dunno, I'd have no qualms with choking somebody out if it were warranted.