Can you 'Judo' out of the Clinch?

[Guards]

I'm posting this in Standup, and Grappling. I want to see the different perspectives based on experience. Stand-up guys may say no, but Judo guys in grappling may see it differently.

In MMA(I'm not sure what the rules for MT-style fighting are), what are your thoughts about well-applied Judo as a Thai Clinch defense?

I have some experience in Judo, and some experience in MT. I've done the clinch, and I've been clinched. Being clinched, standing and trading against someone who's a bit better in the clinch sucks.

We know that most wrestlers get troubled by the clinch because their takedowns are primarily based on dropping posture. :redface: Judo is different, and a majority of their throws and be applied while standing upright.

In an MMA fight, what pros and cons do you see? Would someone like Karo perhaps survive better than others?

 

[Thesis]

Seems like if your pretty good at no gi judo, you should be able to toss the guy. Might get punched in the face tho? All depends.

 

[Rinksterk**]

Anderson silva had trouble getting Hendo in the clinch. So wrestling isn't all that bad.

From my personal experience, I would say it could work. I done judo and when I sparred takedowns in nogi BJJ, there was this one kid who would always try to get the thai clinch on me and push me. it was weird because thats all he was doing. I would just break the grip and toss him. So my judo beat his thai clinch. But that dude sucked so I wouldn't make much of it.

 

[vu]

Depends on the type of wrestling we're talking about...

Greco-Roman is what I'd consider "no-gi Judo"; very upright, can't attack the legs, and is all based on trips, throws, and upper-body slams...and the Team Quest guys use it phenomenally...

BJ Penn and Randy Couture call it the "dirty boxing clinch" when applied to MMA...

Also, we have to keep in mind that the "Thai clinch" as we know it is a name that we give the double-neck tie that the Thai's just happen to use very effectively, but overall, their (the Thai's) clinch work involves a WHOLE lot more than just plum work...they use double underhooks, double overhooks, and over-under pretty often too...especially when doing what we call "dirty boxing" (their elbow-work is the most obvious)...

So yeah...I think you can "Judo" your way out of getting struck from the clinch position...

 

[radman]

In my muay thai class, we have learned to throw, but not directly from the "plumb" clinch. In the midst of swimming trying to break the clinch you can pull a trip ora throw. and i've seen legal throws in muay thai fighs, though rare.

 

[Vector_X]

hmm I think it would really depend on the different skill levels of an opponent. To your average MMA fighter that claims his main art is "muay thai" then yes since I've see some horrid technique from people that claim that is what they train. If the MT fighter actually knows his stuff and his clinch work is tight then I think you would have some difficulties. Like I said previously the skill levels of the fighters is probably the most important factor in determining if this would work.

 

[Guards]

Anderson silva had trouble getting Hendo in the clinch. So wrestling isn't all that bad.

This one is a pretty solid example. Hendo's Greco-Roman style is very similar to Judo. I should have been more specific when I mentioned wrestling, I was referring to Coleman, Randleman, Kerr style; predominantely single and double-legs. Shoot low, etc.

Depends on the type of wrestling we're talking about...

Greco-Roman is what I'd consider "no-gi Judo"; very upright, can't attack the legs, and is all based on trips, throws, and upper-body slams...and the Team Quest guys use it phenomenally...

BJ Penn and Randy Couture call it the "dirty boxing clinch" when applied to MMA...

Also, we have to keep in mind that the "Thai clinch" as we know it is a name that we give the double-neck tie that the Thai's just happen to use very effectively, but overall, their (the Thai's) clinch work involves a WHOLE lot more than just plum work...they use double underhooks, double overhooks, and over-under pretty often too...especially when doing what we call "dirty boxing" (their elbow-work is the most obvious)...

So yeah...I think you can "Judo" your way out of getting struck from the clinch position...

Yeah, I was just specifying the Plum because that's the one that seems the most foreign to non-MT fighters. People like Randy, Hendo, Tito, even Matt Hughes have no problem if someone wants to try and clinch underhooks, over-under. They're experienced and familiar there, it's a hold that they know how to react to.

Getting the forearms across the collar and hands locked up behind the head is where we've seen some very detrimental exchanges in the past year or so! :icon_chee

 

[ssullivan80]

hmm I think it would really depend on the different skill levels of an opponent. To your average MMA fighter that claims his main art is "muay thai" then yes since I've see some horrid technique from people that claim that is what they train. If the MT fighter actually knows his stuff and his clinch work is tight then I think you would have some difficulties. Like I said previously the skill levels of the fighters is probably the most important factor in determining if this would work.

Agreed that skill level is the determining factor. However, I think a guy who is extremely skilled in judo (Karo Parisian) could easily set up throws in a MT clinch. Even more so if the clinch gets sloppy (elbows come out, arms straighten out). I spar alot with a guy who is well trained in judo and I have several years of MT training, he manages to toss me every once in a while when in a clinch. Obviously we are not near the skill level of guys like Karo or top MT fighters, but this has been my experience. Even more so when the MT fighter has a height advantage in the clinch, Judo guys can get their hips into position with relative ease.

 

[Tim Chan]

there are many factors but its about positioning, control, adapting to no-gi, etc.

i had an almost perfect o-goshi in my last fight

 

[indigoluxe]

In my muay thai class, we have learned to throw, but not directly from the "plumb" clinch. In the midst of swimming trying to break the clinch you can pull a trip ora throw. and i've seen legal throws in muay thai fighs, though rare.

Go and watch a few MT shows in Thailand. Legal throws from the clinch score highly as they show total domination of the opponent. You'll see a huge number of clinch throws in pure MT.

 

[Yanoush]

by the way

you can't trip in greco

 

[jlagman]

Totally, in September the gym I trained at held a Karo Parysian seminar and he showed us a few throws from the clinch and pummel position. Do you realize how many penalties we incurred in the following months inside our amatuer leage?

 

[jlagman]

Totally, in September the gym I trained at held a Karo Parysian seminar and he showed us a few throws from the clinch and pummel position. Do you realize how many penalties we incurred in the following months inside our amatuer leage?

 

[Ryo]

Greco-Roman is what I'd consider "no-gi Judo"; very upright, can't attack the legs, and is all based on trips, throws, and upper-body slams...and the Team Quest guys use it phenomenally...

Why in the world would you consider Greco-Roman no-gi Judo? They realy don't have much in common. First of all.. in Judo you CAN attack the legs, that means shooting, trips etc.. heck probably half of all Judo techniques involve the legs in someway. In Greco-Roman you are forbidden to attack the legs at all... so how do you trip/sweep somebody withought attacking the legs? :icon_neut I don't know why people say this all the time, without actually knowing the rules of this style.

 

[Tim Chan]

i would add that i've had really good well timed harai goshi/osoto gari, used against me, while throwing jumping knees on someone. so thats one way to use judo techniques.

 

[TenderLoving]

I agree with you Tim Chan.

I'd say that the most effective techniques from judo that you can use in the MT clinch is the leg trippings like o-soto-gari and similar. These are afaik not usually allowed in MT so people won't be as experienced with them.

 

[vu]

Why in the world would you consider Greco-Roman no-gi Judo? They realy don't have much in common. First of all.. in Judo you CAN attack the legs, that means shooting, trips etc.. heck probably half of all Judo techniques involve the legs in someway. In Greco-Roman you are forbidden to attack the legs at all... so how do you trip/sweep somebody withought attacking the legs? :icon_neut I don't know why people say this all the time, without actually knowing the rules of this style.

I think I feel that way b/c it's (Judo) is far closer to Greco than it is something like Free-style/Folk/College...

 

[ssssmashing]

Any number of tripping sweeps can work. I think o-goshi, the traditional hip toss would be hard to do against a strong thai clinch and you would risk giving up your back if you failed.

The thing you need to realize is it is hard to get a good judo guy in a MT clinch. As soon as you get in tight with them they are either going to reap, sweep or most likely throw you before you are locked into a true thai clinch.

 

[radman]

Go and watch a few MT shows in Thailand. Legal throws from the clinch score highly as they show total domination of the opponent. You'll see a huge number of clinch throws in pure MT.

Yes you are right, but sometimes I have seen here- in the States- how one corner starts jumping in on the ref for "illegal moves" only to have the ref say nothing was doen illegal.

I often think that pulling a throw or trip is a grey matter.

 

[Chonbody]

It should . could work, but you're going to risk the possibility of eating a punch, knee or elbow but fuck, it's your skillset vs. mine. I feel I could scramble out with blows but either way, I'd like to see it in professional MMA.

And negative 100 points to the dude who said in Judo you can't attack the legs, trips and leg holds are all part of Judo
ya dumbass.