Social Can we admit that the loss of religion in America has been a disaster for both private and public life?

[Sinister]

im contending that stating that as THE motivation or even a primary one is theologically unjustified and reductionist. its a kind of lie when the person stating it has any real understanding but its just an untruth when stated by someone ignorant of christian theology. like i said... i would not believe in your understanding of Christianity either because its not a good one.

I find it very interesting that you find the core motivation and goal for the existence of the religion in the first place (to either please God and get to Heaven or avoid damnation), when stated openly as a motivating factor for religious people's behavior, to be a reductionist lie. I would agree with that assessment, but for different reasons than you do.

I still don’t know what this atheist movement is, all I know is that the atheist population has mostly stayed the same for decades because studies show that education and lack of religious beliefs correlate to the number of children had. Atheists have far far fewer children. Also this movement wasn’t some missionary type work. It basically existed to show Americans that atheists are not evil and have a moral compass too. I just don’t think it’s as needed anymore as being atheist becomes less and less controversial over time. Those people served their purpose

Typically atheists and agnostics dont proselytize, however I've seen plenty of religious people refer to the questioning atheists and agnostics do as proselytizing...which says a lot about how they view questioning.

 

[Zazen]

You have known me for quite some time and we have had many meaningful exchanges on the topic of Christianity versus eastern religions and that means you know darn well that the kind of Christianity you are denigrating right now does not represent all of Christianity or even most of Christianity.

The contemplative path of Christianity is alive and well and has never been lost since the time of Jesus. To pretend that a profoundly deep path, a profoundly deep meditative and spiritual path within Christianity does not exist is willful ignorance at this point.

In fact, Christianity offers a unique kind of spiritual transcendence that Hinduism has no language for whatsoever and no categories for on any level. The reason a person from the east fails to understand Christianity is because they try to fit salvation. Jesus, god and human beings and the world of creation into a Hindu paradigm which is impossible to do because the paradigms are so at odds with one another that they only create confusion when viewing the latter from the former.

But rather than taking the cheap shot that you just took and claiming that christianity it's better, I will just say that it is unlike any other religion on the planet and it offers a way into profound intimacy with God that any person on the planet could succeed at and it offers a kind of enlightenment that is completely anti-podal to the Hindu schema.


If I were going to sink to the level of the post you just made, I would just say that Hindus still practice animal sacrifice and human sacrifice too and treat whole classes of people as not much more than slaves and religiously justified at that while christianity produces teressa of avila and padre pio!! , as if that somehow encompassed the nearly infinite richness and beauty of the Hindu tradition or was any kind of honest comparison!!!!


As a fellow meditator and fellow traveler on this path, you really can't afford to be this poisonous and hope to get to a very high degree of love or consciousness man.... What you're doing is a form of gossip and slander and in Buddhism that's one of the things you can do that guarantees that you must reincarnate and come back....

it is true that some forms of christianity are vapid, fundamentalist and do not serve spirituality very well. can i find the equivalent in hinduism? yes i can.....

Hindus do animal sacrifice? Isn’t like 40 percent of the country vegetarian largely thanks to their faith? Christians are far worse when it comes to animal slaughter. None of them even care about the fact that before Eve ate the apple meat was forbidden. Instead of trying to eat a plant based diet Christians just say fuck it and choose to live in sin. Isn’t pork supposed to be bad to eat too? Muslims at least follow that one

 

[Zazen]

Religion is fine for some people, and it should exist. Let them have it. It helps them in their daily routine and to cope with the struggles we all have in life. As long as they aren't pushing it on or hurting anyone else, that is 100% fine.

It is NOT for everybody, though.. and that is also 100% OK.

Problem is their religion teaches just exactly that, especially the Abrahamic religions. It’s their duty to push their shit on other people

 

[terrapin]

I live in the US, not India. If I lived in India or some other part of the world where half the government was run by nutjob fundamentalist Hindus who support the caste system or other toxic systems, I would speak out against them, but I don't. I live the US, where fundamentalist Christianity its incredibly toxic effects are rampant throughout society, so I speak out against it. Anyways, I'm not sure why you went off on Hinduism, I didn't say anything about Hinduism, and from the little I know about it its full of all the same toxic problems as the Abrahamic religions.

A deep spiritual path may exist in Christianity, but its far from the norm. You've got a highly biased viewpoint, and use your own experience to discount the real world evidence we have of Christianity's toxic effects on society and individuals. The reaction of Catholics to the sex abuse scandal tells you everything you need to know about the norm in Christianity. I'm loosely affiliated with a religions organization - I have no illusions that all the teachers in this organization are all perfect saints, but if something similar happened where they were raping children and the highest levels of the organization enabled and covered it up, I not only never support them again, I would view it as partially my responsibility to do everything in my power to take the entire organization down. That's not what happened to the Catholic church - most Catholics went on as if nothing happened - if you're a Christian you have to ask yourself some serious questions about why that's the case.

here is you quoted

I've posted it here before, but there's a documentary, The Dhamma Brothers, that demonstrates quite clearly the difference between real spiritual practices and trash like Christianity. A couple meditation teachers hold a Vipassana meditation retreat in a violent, maximum security prison. The retreat produces radical changes in almost all the men who participate, many of whom were already religious, and most want to continue doing the new practices after the retreat because of their benefits. The prison chaplain can't stand that a better path has been shown to these guys, one that actually works, and so he has their meditation group shut down, like a child throwing a tantrum. That's Christianity.

do you know now many christian movements there are bringing contemplative prayer to prisoners? i think you do not. obviously!!! ever heard of prison monastery or thomas keatings groups all over the country?

all im really asking is that you make accurate distinctions and not lump all of Christianity in the same negative way you do to protect your own consciousness..

but anyway good will towards you man. im not interested in fighting things out with you its just that you are one of the people i think are actually hurting themselves with this kind of rhetoric because i think you have at least had glimpses into higher states of consciousnesses and lower yourself when you speak this way.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Yes let's go back to the good old days when the coloreds had their own bathrooms. Religion was thriving then.

Do you realize how shitty life was before like 1985 for anyone that's not white?

But what about muh racism.

 

[terrapin]

Hindus do animal sacrifice? Isn’t like 40 percent of the country vegetarian largely thanks to their faith? Christians are far worse when it comes to animal slaughter. None of them even care about the fact that before Eve ate the apple meat was forbidden. Instead of trying to eat a plant based diet Christians just say fuck it and choose to live in sin. Isn’t pork supposed to be bad to eat too? Muslims at least follow that one

SOME Hindus do and its likely that human sacrifice is still practiced too.....

but hinduism isnt really a word describing a single religion.... its a single world describing the most diverse collection of spiritual practices and beliefs on the planet. its terribly reductionistic to call all of that hinduism.

nobody, even jesus holds to vegetarianism man.... thats just not at all where the tradition stands.

ive been vegetarians for over 25 years btw!!

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

you asked why religion tends to motivate people to give more and i explained why it is a better set of motivations for producing giving more. you can hate those reasons all you want... im not even trying to defend them. im just answering the question you asked about the why of it.

a really good conversation that is being had by lots of interesting and intelligent people is how to we create similar levels of motivation/spirituality without recourse to faith? ive listened to a ton of really powerful content on this level and am following the movement loosely out of genuine goodwill towards them.

here is john vervaki whom i consider to be among the leaders of this new movement comprised almost entirely of people who do not believe in god sort of framing the entire discussion in one hour. this is a more than 60 hour series of lectures though. this hour long segment is well worth a listen man if you want to understand this topic deeply.

I'm not really hating on them, as they are effective. Religious leaders understood human motivation to the core, and aside from the reward and punishment doctrine, they also helped foster a community or tribe based on shared beliefs and values, and provided an established social structure that pack animals like ourselves gravitate towards. The moral and ethical framework that religions provide can promote cooperation, trust, and a sense of responsibility within the community. Also, practices and traditions that religion brings can also strengthen social bonds and create a sense of continuity and identity.

For an Atheistic group to succeed, they will need to fulfill similar needs for it's members.

 

[USA!USA!]

Problem is their religion teaches just exactly that, especially the Abrahamic religions. It’s their duty to push their shit on other people

Ehhh depends on your congregation. Not every place preaches or teaches the same even if their ideas are generally similar.

 

[dirtypablo]

here is you quoted

I've posted it here before, but there's a documentary, The Dhamma Brothers, that demonstrates quite clearly the difference between real spiritual practices and trash like Christianity. A couple meditation teachers hold a Vipassana meditation retreat in a violent, maximum security prison. The retreat produces radical changes in almost all the men who participate, many of whom were already religious, and most want to continue doing the new practices after the retreat because of their benefits. The prison chaplain can't stand that a better path has been shown to these guys, one that actually works, and so he has their meditation group shut down, like a child throwing a tantrum. That's Christianity.

do you know now many christian movements there are bringing contemplative prayer to prisoners? i think you do not. obviously!!! ever heard of prison monastery or thomas keatings groups all over the country?

all im really asking is that you make accurate distinctions and not lump all of Christianity in the same negative way you do to protect your own consciousness..

but anyway good will towards you man. im not interested in fighting things out with you its just that you are one of the people i think are actually hurting themselves with this kind of rhetoric because i think you have at least had glimpses into higher states of consciousnesses and lower yourself when you speak this way.

I'm not sure what your point is here. The documentary I was referring to is about Buddhist practices, not Hindu, if that's what you were getting at. In either case, I'm under no illusions that all Buddhists are perfect either, or that toxic problems can't come from any form of organized religion - they can, which is why its important to find an organization that has lots of forms of protection in place against these types of problems.

I also don't really get what you're getting at by pointing out that Christians have prayer groups in prisons - I'm well aware. Many of the prisoners in the documentary were Christians, and they found something better - something that actually worked for them when the practices they had learned through Christianity hadn't. The Christians that hold prayer groups couldn't handle that, and shut it down. I've never heard of anything remotely similar happening with Buddhist organizations actively trying to shut out Christian organizations. You can point to one off organizations in Christianity that don't behave that way, but thats not the norm regardless of how much you want it to be.

 

[Zazen]

Ehhh depends on your congregation. Not every place preaches or teaches the same even if their ideas are generally similar.

Isn’t that what the whole “be a fisher of men” passage is about in the Bible though? If a church isn’t doing its mostly because they know it would scare off people

 

[terrapin]

I find it very interesting that you find the core motivation and goal for the existence of the religion in the first place (to either please God and get to Heaven or avoid damnation), when stated openly as a motivating factor for religious people's behavior, to be a reductionist lie. I would agree with that assessment, but for different reasons than you do.



Typically atheists and agnostics dont proselytize, however I've seen plenty of religious people refer to the questioning atheists and agnostics do as proselytizing...which says a lot about how they view questioning.

both of the statements below in italics from you contain deep theological errors man. the problem is probably that as a child you had a childish understanding of the faith and then never entered into and adult understanding in order to understand it better.

but honestly man i dont even want to hold you to every single word you wrote. im sure you were not offering a dissertation of the entirety of your thoughts on the system. but as written.... i would not buy into any of that either as its not accurate and leaves out a LOT.

Seems wholly diminishing of any qualities to think that someone only adheres to being a decent person because their fear being terrorized after death if they don't. Or that they will get what they want out of it after death if they do. And this is a concept I've heard in every kind of Church I attended as a kid, while attempting to ignore the blatant hypocrisies present as well.


I've always found the idea that people NEED an invisible hand constantly either threatening them with chastisement, or offering reward in order for them to be "good" to be one of the most infantilizing concepts I've ever heard of. And frankly it reminds me of accounts of how slave owners referred to slaves:

 

[terrapin]

I'm not sure what your point is here. The documentary I was referring to is about Buddhist practices, not Hindu, if that's what you were getting at. In either case, I'm under no illusions that all Buddhists are perfect either, or that toxic problems can't come from any form of organized religion - they can, which is why its important to find an organization that has lots of forms of protection in place against these types of problems.

I also don't really get what you're getting at by pointing out that Christians have prayer groups in prisons - I'm well aware. Many of the prisoners in the documentary were Christians, and they found something better - something that actually worked for them when the practices they had learned through Christianity hadn't. The Christians that hold prayer groups couldn't handle that, and shut it down. I've never heard of anything remotely similar happening with Buddhist organizations actively trying to shut out Christian organizations. You can point to one off organizations in Christianity that don't behave that way, but thats not the norm regardless of how much you want it to be.

maybe just go back and re read my posts. i did and they seem very clear.

have a good day friend.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Christians are far worse when it comes to animal slaughter. None of them even care about the fact that before Eve ate the apple meat was forbidden. Instead of trying to eat a plant based diet Christians just say fuck it and choose to live in sin. Isn’t pork supposed to be bad to eat too? Muslims at least follow that one

This is just flat out wrong. The bible makes it clear you can eat meat (Jesus did it himself). It does make a reference to pigs as unclean, but those that live in Christ's freedom don't have to worry about that.

 

[fedoriswar37]

the problem with throwing out religion and replacing it with spirituality is that it could take 1000 years to reinvent that wheel.... religion can reliably produce people with extremely high states of consciousness.... it has taken a VERY long time to climb to those states, identify them and then learn to reproduce them reliably. that process is STILL being refined by serious people of every religious stripe.

the various major world religions also each offer a distinctly different flavor and even kind of spirituality that at the summation are NOT the same. any serious seeker of spirituality would/will want to be exposed to all of this, all of the different twists and turns of the meditative life and understand the rich plethora of astounding beautiful and high spirituality on offer.

throwing all of that out is not an option so a different conversation, way less simplistic than religion vs spirituality must take place and is taking place by serious people. throwing all of that out would set humanity back thousands of years developmentally. we need better conversations than all or nothing and they need to be had by people who actually know what the various traditions have to offer.

I'm not advocating for removal of religion. There's some I think are more destructive to earth then others and we would benefit greatly without, but that's neither here nor there. And I myself personally am religious. Not as devout to the institution itself but nevertheless religious.

I just mean people should believe in something. Be it God Buddha mother nature or w.e. So long as your only belief isn't just what's physical

 

[nostradumbass]

I think deep down, most want to be good and dont want to do wrong. Of course, we can all point to exceptions to that.
But I think most will say we only really know good people.

Its quiet complex, but I think as long as most people have needs met, in general, they tend to be alright

at least,I choose to believe in that world rather than one of fear and misery

So you believe it on faith despite mountains of evidence to the contrary?

According to this theory, billionaires and the super rich must be way more moral since they clearly have their basic needs covered, right?

The results are in, amigo, there's nothing left to ponder. Religious people give more to charity both in dollar amount and percentage of income, they have higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates, fewer abortions, fewer children out of wedlock, have more children of their own and adopt more, have lower rates of depression and mental illness.

 

[Zazen]

This is just flat out wrong. The bible makes it clear you can eat meat (Jesus did it himself). It does make a reference to pigs as unclean, but those that live in Christ's freedom don't have to worry about that.

Mathew 5:17 says otherwise. Jesus came to fulfill the old law and not abolish them. Let’s be real here. Christians just couldn’t turn down the bacon

 

[terrapin]

I'm not really hating on them, as they are effective. Religious leaders understood human motivation to the core, and aside from the reward and punishment doctrine, they also helped foster a community or tribe based on shared beliefs and values, and provided an established social structure that pack animals like ourselves gravitate towards. The moral and ethical framework that religions provide can promote cooperation, trust, and a sense of responsibility within the community. Also, practices and traditions that religion brings can also strengthen social bonds and create a sense of continuity and identity.

For an Atheistic group to succeed, they will need to fulfill similar needs for it's members.

and i really hope that they do man.... that video i posted opened up a flood gate of podcasts and intellectuals who have moved past arging if religion is true or not and just started assimilating the good practices in the world traditions and sychretizing them etc.

but the point i like about them is that they are really trying to help humanity find deep meaning again outside of religion and even though i am deeply religious i really support that experiment and project. i think thar religion bashing is pure toxicity and its usefulness has died along with the atheist movement.

now that we have slayed the uncontested authority of religion a better conversation can and is taking place. in many ways i think Christianity (my religion) will benefit deeply from losing power and wealth. i think it is only revitalizing Christianity and bringing its focus back onto its original mission which is to produce transformation in people.

 

[oldshadow]

TS is correct about church giving the community feel and the good that comes from that. It still does in many cases no matter the religion.

There are and were problems that comes with and community organizations and any gathering of people.

The problem is nothing much is there to replace that that seems to work as well.

 

[Sinister]

both of the statements below in italics from you contain deep theological errors man. the problem is probably that as a child you had a childish understanding of the faith and then never entered into and adult understanding in order to understand it better.

but honestly man i dont even want to hold you to every single word you wrote. im sure you were not offering a dissertation of the entirety of your thoughts on the system. but as written.... i would not buy into any of that either as its not accurate and leaves out a LOT.

Seems wholly diminishing of any qualities to think that someone only adheres to being a decent person because their fear being terrorized after death if they don't. Or that they will get what they want out of it after death if they do. And this is a concept I've heard in every kind of Church I attended as a kid, while attempting to ignore the blatant hypocrisies present as well.


I've always found the idea that people NEED an invisible hand constantly either threatening them with chastisement, or offering reward in order for them to be "good" to be one of the most infantilizing concepts I've ever heard of. And frankly it reminds me of accounts of how slave owners referred to slaves:

To another poster above who asked you why religious people might give more you literally included "it is God's will"...and you have not contended that pleasing God is a primary motivator for religous people. I'd pose that it's you who were indoctrinated with a child's understanding of the faith, and you've never come into an adult understanding of how infantilizing that is, removing personal agency from why you should do a good thing. I'm perfectly capable of deciding if I should do a good thing or not without the need to attach it to the will of a deity whose existence I cannot prove, or because it's part of a rule set where I will be punished, disfavored if I have not done enough of those things.

I've had many debates with religious people throughout my life and have a great respect for some of them. But at their core, their indoctrination effectively removed their ability to accept the idea of subjective morality. This has been presented in this very thread. People who subscribe to the idea that people need religion believe that without it, humans are incapable of having their own moral parameters that they consider acceptable.

 

[oldshadow]

Mathew 5:17 says otherwise. Jesus came to fulfill the old law and not abolish them. Let’s be real here. Christians just couldn’t turn down the bacon

"In the New Testament, Jesus swept away these rules when He “declared all foods clean” (Mark 7:18-19): “There is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.”