Social Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court

[avenue94]

The vast, vast majority of Portlanders want reasonable, logical laws in place regarding homelessness and camping in public.

If you spend any time on the Portland Sub Reddit you’ll see even there on a fairly left leaning website everybody generally agrees That punishing people for breaking laws and for making the city more dangerous is a good thing.

We all want common sense laws on these issues.

What are common sense laws on these issues?

 

[emefer]

Homeless woman was living inside Michigan rooftop store sign with computer and coffee maker​

BY ED WHITE
Updated 2:44 PM BRT, May 9, 2024

Contractors curious about an extension cord on the roof of a Michigan grocery store made a startling discovery: A 34-year-old woman was living inside the business sign, with enough space for a computer, printer and coffee maker, police said.
“She was homeless,” Officer Brennon Warren of the Midland Police Department said Thursday. “It’s a story that makes you scratch your head, just somebody living up in a sign.”

The woman, whose name was not released, told police she had a job elsewhere but had been living inside the Family Fare sign for roughly a year, Warren said. She was found April 23.
Midland, best known as the global home of Dow Inc., is 130 miles (209 kilometers) north of Detroit.

The Family Fare store is in a retail strip with a triangle-shaped sign at the top of the building. The sign structure, probably 5 feet (1.5 meter) wide and 8 feet (2.4 meters) high, has a door and is accessible from the roof, Warren said.
“There was some flooring that was laid down. A mini desk,” he said. “Her clothing. A Keurig coffee maker. A printer and a computer — things you’d have in your home.”

The woman was able to get electricity through a power cord plugged into an outlet on the roof, Warren said.

There was no sign of a ladder. Warren said it’s possible the woman made her way to the roof by climbing up elsewhere behind the store or other retail businesses.

“I honestly don’t know how she was getting up there. She didn’t indicate, either,” he said.

A spokesperson for SpartanNash, the parent company of Family Fare, said store employees responded “with the utmost compassion and professionalism.”

“Ensuring there is ample safe, affordable housing continues to be a widespread issue nationwide that our community needs to partner in solving,” Adrienne Chance said, declining further comment.

Warren said the woman was cooperative and quickly agreed to leave. No charges were pursued.

“We provided her with some information about services in the area,” the officer said. “She apologized and continued on her way. Where she went from there, I don’t know.”

The director of a local nonprofit that provides food and shelter assistance said Midland — which has a population 42,000 — needs more housing for low-income residents.

“From someone who works with the homeless, part of me acknowledges she was really resourceful,” said Saralyn Temple of Midland’s Open Door. “Obviously, we don’t want people resorting to illegal activity to find housing. There are much better options.”

https://apnews.com/article/michigan-store-rooftop-sign-homeless-0185c0d7e4cd7a2f8581e8b8e0eb01b7​

She probably has her helicopter drop her off and pick her up from her penthouse sign.

 

[Barteh]

The fact that drug use is illegal, but this persists as a problem, demonstrates precisely why the law is insufficient to deal with the persistence of the problem.

I seek to target the most problematic population. They aren't victims. On the contrary, if anything, they are victimizers. They refuse to change their behavior to stop negatively affecting everyone around them, and to live in accordance with laws governing everyone which were legally established. You clearly have this warped notion they are helpless, or just down on their luck. They are not. Almost anyone familiar with them learns that, for the overwhelming majority of them, their lifestyle is a result of their choices, choices they continue to repeat every day, not an unfortunate conclusion of events or conditions outside their control.

Drug addiction is a lot more complicated than just saying well it's their fault for making bad decisions. These people need help because they're unable to help themselves.

 

[I Am Legion]

Somehow we have billions to throw at Migrants. But we can't address our own peoples issues. There ARE resources and shelters available. What we see on the streets and in the parks is primarily drug and mental health related. That is why the areas are filled with drug papaphanalia and waste. That is why these folks do not want the help, they choose addiction, or are too deep in psychosis. We need facilities to deal with these types of problems...drugs and mental health. Close the borders and divert those billions to that and we can make a difference. You DO NOT have a right to expose people to diseases and harmul needles. You DO NOT have a right to publicly deficate and pollute. But you DO HAVE a right to exist, and with the fucking taxes we pay that go to nonsense, we should be able to help.

 

[DoctorTaco]

What are common sense laws on these issues?

People shitting in the streets, leaving needles everywhere, and hoarding filth on the side of the freeways shouldn’t be allowed to do these things.

Sidewalks should be free of Egress for folks in wheel chairs, mobility scooters, crutches, etc.

 

[avenue94]

People shitting in the streets, leaving needles everywhere, and hoarding filth on the side of the freeways shouldn’t be allowed to do these things.

Sidewalks should be free of Egress for folks in wheel chairs, mobility scooters, crutches, etc.

Some of these are doable, but banning standing or sitting or sleeping on the sidewalk is a blatant Constitutional violation. These fixes are all predicated on sufficient housing or shelter access as well...which doesn't exist in the region.

 

[DoctorTaco]

banning standing or sitting or sleeping on the sidewalk is a blatant Constitutional violation

Your rights end where mine begin, yeah? If a homeless person is passed out on the public sidewalk or pitching a tent and blocking the way so that someone can’t get by, seems like a problem to me.

 

[avenue94]

Your rights end where mine begin, yeah? If a homeless person is passed out on the public sidewalk or pitching a tent and blocking the way so that someone can’t get by, seems like a problem to me.

Tents are one thing. How would you distinguish between someone sleeping on the sidewalk or me just standing there because I really like the view? Are you building in a time limit or something into these laws?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Tents are one thing. How would you distinguish between someone sleeping on the sidewalk or me just standing there because I really like the view?

that’s a tricky one, but it would probably be based on if you were laying down with your eyes closed, not moving, breathing rhythmically and not responding to verbal inquiries.

You know, sleeping.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Well, the poverty was also a direct result of an unwillingness to participate of my Father. As for the act of God aspect, man it's weird. It can be better because, like you said, it's not the result of someone who is supposed to protect you, failing you. But at the same time it can shake your idea of faith and merit to its core. It's a harsh lesson in that many times horrible things happen to very good people who never hurt anyone, and it wasnt visibly part of some larger plan for their over all good. It sucked, many of them died, and that's that.

- Now i understand why you're a atheist. I'm not religious person, unless in need, in those hours everyonwe prays.

But they say God doesnt put hardneships in the back of a person, he doesnt think can handle those hardneships.

You become a better man, and a stronger man because your life-story, i bet you're a better dad to your kid, that your dad was to you(with all respect). You handled a battle that would break a lesser man(myself included). I honestly dont know if theres is a GOD, look to what is happening in Brazil, Pakistan, and other places getting punished by heavy-rain.

But on the other hand, theres is enough good people being inspired to help because of the story of a poor carpenter.

My dad has a similar story to your, and he was a great dad. Thats why i am so passionate about westerns. He gave-me any toy i wanted, because eventhought his dad wasnt poor, for some reason he didnt liked my dad, so the only toy he ever had was a Apache fort from Guliver.

 

[ferrisjso]

People shitting in the streets, leaving needles everywhere, and hoarding filth on the side of the freeways shouldn’t be allowed to do these things.

Sidewalks should be free of Egress for folks in wheel chairs, mobility scooters, crutches, etc.

Hoarding "filth" is personal property you know the kind you have in your dwelling.

Theres an unsaid implicaton here you want to take away all of homeless peoples shit.

I wonder how people in wheel chairs, mobility scooters and crutches feel about this topic? They probably support the homeless people unconditionally because they relate to being marginalized. You're just weaponizing them because its convienant. .

 

[Limbo Pete]

They probably support the homeless people unconditionally

False

 

[DoctorTaco]

Hoarding "filth" is personal property you know the kind you have in your dwelling.

lol no.

It’s literal garbage. Trash. No sentimental or monetary value. It’s hoarded as part of their meth induced psychosis.

I wonder how people in wheel chairs, mobility scooters and crutches feel about this topic?

If you think someone in a wheel chair who can’t roll down the sidewalk because there are tents, trash, and bicycle parts blocking their way thinks “stay strong, brother!” You’re higher than me. (And I’m fairly toasty rn)

you can find plenty of accounts of people with mobility issues complaining about the homeless blocking their paths. Here I am advocating to make their lives easier and better in a very simple way. I’d argue that letting people make their lives more difficult only furthers their “marginalization”.

 

[avenue94]

that’s a tricky one, but it would probably be based on if you were laying down with your eyes closed, not moving, breathing rhythmically and not responding to verbal inquiries.

You know, sleeping.

So why would sitting or standing on a sidewalk for 20 minutes be legal but sleeping, sitting or standing, on a sidewalk for 20 minutes would be illegal?

There are plenty of laws like the on you're proposing on the books, but they are rarely enforced because they fail multiple constitutional tests.

 

[DoctorTaco]

So why would sitting or standing on a sidewalk for 20 minutes be legal but sleeping, sitting or standing, on a sidewalk for 20 minutes would be illegal?

There are plenty of laws like the on you're proposing on the books, but they are rarely enforced because they fail multiple constitutional tests.

If a homeless person is passed out on the side walk my nana can’t/wont wake rhem
Up so she can get by. If you’re sitting/laying down she could ask you to move.

And I’m sure you would move if nana asked you to. Because it would be terribly rude not to, yeah?.

 

[ferrisjso]

If a homeless person is passed out on the side walk my nana can’t/wont wake rhem
Up so she can get by. If you’re sitting/laying down she could ask you to move.

And I’m sure you would move if nana asked you to. Because it would be terribly rude not to, yeah?.

Your prioritizing the comfort of someone with privilege over a victim of capitalism. There are all sorts of obstacles a homeless person has to face. But you're going to focus on the trivial ones the homeless person puts towards others because like the drug thing its just a dog whistle.

A homeless person having a place to sleep is objectively more important than whether or not you can walk past a certain point on your journey(which you probably can).

 

[avenue94]

If a homeless person is passed out on the side walk my nana can’t/wont wake rhem
Up so she can get by. If you’re sitting/laying down she could ask you to move.

And I’m sure you would move if nana asked you to. Because it would be terribly rude not to, yeah?.

So again...you're criminalizing sleep. Wildly unconstitutional. One of the key requirements of any criminal law is an offender needs to clearly know when they are breaking it. And if the difference is whether or not you were sleeping for 5 mins or 10, a judge will laugh that law out of court.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Your prioritizing the comfort of someone with privilege over a victim of capitalism. There are all sorts of obstacles a homeless person has to face. But you're going to focus on the trivial ones the homeless person puts towards others because like the drug thing its just a dog whistle.

A homeless person having a place to sleep is objectively more important than whether or not you can walk past a certain point on your journey(which you probably can).

Please see my prior posts regarding “can nots, will nots, and have nots”. I’m not in the business of dog whistling. I understand the issues homeless face, I’ve lived on the streets. Have you?

You said it yourself so idk why there’s any point in continuing- you think a homeless persons rights to sleep where ever they want are more important than someone with mobility issues having full access to the sidewalks and the freedom they provide for that individual. Cool.

What if there’s a homeless person in a wheel chair who can’t navigate the path bc others are blocking it?

So again...you're criminalizing sleep. Wildly unconstitutional. One of the key requirements of any criminal law is an offender needs to clearly know when they are breaking it. And if the difference is whether or not you were sleeping for 5 mins or 10, a judge will laugh that law out of court.

Not criminalizing sleeping, criminalizing blocking public egress. Easy to know if you’re doing it.

When these giant camps are busted up do you know how many people take the police up on their offer of a shelter stay? We can use Portland as an example since it’s the city in question

 

[djacobox372]

Some of these are doable, but banning standing or sitting or sleeping on the sidewalk is a blatant Constitutional violation. These fixes are all predicated on sufficient housing or shelter access as well...which doesn't exist in the region.

While I agree that loitering laws are unconstitutional, there is no "right" to housing or shelter. If someone is breaking the law they need to be held accountable. Plenty of homeless people live their lives without acting like criminals.

 

[no fat chicks]

Yeah you got me there, I believe in basic stats.

Reality has a left wing bias