Butterfly Problem...

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Trickster***, May 21, 2008.

  1. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    I am getting my butterfly guard passed by this high purple belt ALL the time.....he does the pass where he keeps his elbows down, head to one side, and does a head/handstand jumping over my legs to one side and ending on perfectly in side mount.

    I know its coming but he pinches my heels to my ass and basically gets his elbows to touch his knees so he is doing the pass perfectly and I can't stop him at all!

    I know you are going to say "Dont let him get that tight" but he is really good. SO is there anything I can do to stop him from doing this once he gets tight? Or what can I do to not let him get that tight?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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  3. Deloitte

    Deloitte Blue Belt

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    Once he gets that tight you need to push his head away and shrimp away. That's the worst position you can be in with butterfly guard. Your last resort is to try to follow him with your hooks.
     
  4. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    Push his head away? Lets say his head is by my right hip and he is going to jump up and over my left leg....I should push his head towards the side it is already on? I feel like that might make his pass even easier bc it helps turn his body. Do you see what Im saying??

    I would think that if I was going to push his head it would be towards the side he is going to jump to....so push his head from my hip more onto the center of my stomach, ya know?

    Oh and I tried to follow him with my hooks but he has my hips pinned down so well that its almost impossible! He trained with Marcelo for a while so Im sure he showed him how to do it perfectly (sucks for me)

    Thanks for the reply brother...
     
  5. MonkeyNuts!

    MonkeyNuts! Rear Naked Poker

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    I think if you push it to the other side, he will do the same pass, except the other direction. Only this time he's got added push from you.
     
  6. Deloitte

    Deloitte Blue Belt

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    I mean push his head away immediately when you are getting flattened out and shrimp so you are no longer in that inferior position for him to set up his pass.

    He has your hips pinned when he sets up the pass, but when he's jumping over your hips are free. I'm not saying it's easy to follow him with your hooks but that's your last resort. This also has to do a lot with your timing which comes through experience.
     
  7. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Pushing the head won't work to counter this pass.

    You are in a bad position if this happens. You need to kick him away as you fight for underhooks. Threatening the choke sometimes helps open him up a bit, but don't get caught playing with the choke while he does this.

    With gi, you can grab both of his pants at the knee and use those grips almost like double underhooks, kick him back to make space, when he pushes forward lift up to sweep.

    At the end of the day, however, there's no excuse for letting him put you in this position in the first place! To prevent him from getting tight, keep your legs back until you get the underhook(s)!!! Always!! And keep your head forward and lower than his.
     
  8. Deloitte

    Deloitte Blue Belt

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    It won't work for the pass like I've mentioned, but it gets you out of the position when you feel his weight is coming forward to dominate your hooks. Getting underhooks and kicking both hooks work too. I'm also curious how you defend the pass when he has it set up, is it even possible in such an inferior position?
     
  9. IronCage**

    IronCage** Banned Banned

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    You have to know when to abandon ship. Change guard when you are losing position.

    Like it was already been said in this thread, this is the worst position to be in when you are in butterfly guard. You should never be on your back. Once you are hitting your back and you can't get up, before he gets to dictate space switch to half guard then work your way back to butterfly guard.
     
  10. IronCage**

    IronCage** Banned Banned

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    Well, I think the opponent would use his head to put you on your back and he uses his shoulder as a base when he jumps over. So taking his base a way and pushing the head to try to get up seems to me like a good counter to try.
     
  11. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It is a decent approach, but basically it's just a side control escape. That's not a bad thing, and if your guard is getting passed, your best option is to explode into a side control escape, whether it's pushing the head or otherwise.

    The problem with pushing the head in this situation is that his head is already across your body, so pushing it is actually kind of helping the pass. You usually want to push the head away from you if you are defending the pass.

    But in general you are going to need to escape your hips, and pushing the head is as good of an option as any at that point to make space.
     
  12. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    I hear ya, I see what you mean too. I think the main point here is to NEVER get flattened out when you have butterfly guard, right? Unless you have double unders


    Awesome thanks!!
     
  13. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    Exactly....I know it has been said before (I'm pretty sure Zankou has said it), but butterfly is not supposed to be flat, as that is where you get into trouble. Butterfly is best sitting up, with your feet tucked and ready. Once you've got some control, you can extend a bit into hooks. If the guy starts crowding you, almost make like a rowboat with your legs and arms and push him back.
    Then you can work to a switch (great, simple wrestling move) or work to the side for a sweep. Or you can just push him back far enough to go to closed guard. But you can't let yourself get pinned....either your legs/feet or getting pinned on your back.
     
  14. green_machine

    green_machine Orange Belt

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    I was just going to say to not be content being flat on your back, but the above poster already said that. I do this same pass alot, and sometimes if I'm able to pin the heels to their butt and get a tight grip on their feet or pants, I do a flip to north/south or side control and then use my grips on their ankles to flip back over into mount. When I'm not able to use this pass is when they constantly fight to get back an underhook and sit up. You need to be aggressive in the butterfly guard and work to get rid of any underhooks or grips that he gets on you.
     
  15. masada555

    masada555 Orange Belt

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    You can't play butterfly guard flat on your back.

    Like Zankou said, you need to keep your hips back and your head forward and fight for the underhooks.

    But you aren't always going to win the underhook battle. You need to be sensitive -- when you feel that you are losing the battle and that he is going to drive you flat, you need to switch guards immediately. (I usually switch to shins-in-the-biceps).

    You can also play with one hand in the collar and one hand posted behind you, which will make it very hard for him to drive you flat. Take the collar grip and try to place your hand so that his collarbone is between your knuckles. If he drives forward it's very painful. If he continues to try to crush you, you can go for a cross-collar choke or a loop choke, or you can snap him down and take the top position.

    There are many other ways to counter the driving pressure.

    The only way I know of to counter the *pass* you're describing is the neck-crank turnover (what Eddie Bravo calls the "100%"). It's like you're going for a guillotine, but your arm goes over his neck then underhooks the arm, then you gable grip your hands. It'll be a battle to underhook his arm but if you get the grip it's an easy sweep. This pass sets up position for you because of where his head is in relation to your hips.
     

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