buchecha no make mma debut against senegalese wrestling champ

[Ryo]

this dude seem a lot stronger more athletic and Ron..:

I mean maybe? They are both around the same sized I guess. 260 range. Probably raided to hell. Both wrestlers. I dunno, seems atleast comparable.

 

[yetanother]

I mean maybe? They are both around the same sized I guess. 260 range. Probably raided to hell. Both wrestlers. I dunno, seems atleast comparable.

Wasnt Ron Waterman like 285?

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Wrestlers gets killed on the ground. He needs to keep it standing and out box Buchecha.

His stand up, outside of power, is horrible as well (but we don't know what Buchecha'a standup is like either so).

If marcus doesn't get ko'd I'm thinking a leg lock or RNC win for him.

 

[Whitebeltatlife]

It will be an interesting fight, for sure.
When Tonon went to One he was initially fed cans up until his last fight. He took a few hits but was at a far lighter weight so it didn't matter and he let his grappling do the talking. But Buchecha is in one-punch KO territory. A similar comparison would be Roger Gracie's MMA career who did well but even he got caught with a KO due to the size.
Buchecha is the better grappler but if he can't get to the floor then who knows? Buchecha is a monster though and is kind of under-rated in the BJJ world for how good he is.

 

[Ishaq]

It will be an interesting fight, for sure.
When Tonon went to One he was initially fed cans up until his last fight. He took a few hits but was at a far lighter weight so it didn't matter and he let his grappling do the talking. But Buchecha is in one-punch KO territory. A similar comparison would be Roger Gracie's MMA career who did well but even he got caught with a KO due to the size.
Buchecha is the better grappler but if he can't get to the floor then who knows? Buchecha is a monster though and is kind of under-rated in the BJJ world for how good he is.

One great benefit that guys like Mir had is how shallow and unsophisticated the grappling talent was in the Heavyweight class.

 

[jack36767]

I think buchecha will do fine.

I am also firmly established on this forum as a “wrestling guy” so I’m not some fanboy.

 

[becoh]

Buchecha's camp should have been cherry picking fat fucks like Tank Abbot to get his first few fights in.

 

[Kenjamito]

Wow that is a tough guy for his debut.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Wrestlers get killed on the ground...? Since when? The pressure and control wrestlers bring has often carried them to victory in MMA, even in absence of a sophisticated submission game. I can certainly think of wrestlers without advanced submission-grappling that were still tough for me to deal with from on bottom due to their pressure. And when you factor in strikes, that control and pressure starts to mean even more. Look at the nightmare a rookie Kayuzuki Miyata was on the ground for Royler Gracie or what Joe Warren did with Kid Yamamoto and Chase Bebe in his first two MMA fights. Or John Lewis versus Kenny Monday.

Are there are a ton of counter examples...? Sure. But the point is, your generalization that "wrestlers get killed on the ground" as a rule is way off-base. Just as off-base as "wrestlers own BJJ'ists on the ground."

Indeed. The era of the "pure BJJ fighter" is long gone. In MMA, the wrestler with good submission defense and simple, reliable boxing and GnP will always be the highest success, most reliable combination. You also have the striker + takedown defense as the second winning combo.

But yeah it is clear to anyone paying attention that offensive BJJ is rarely a viable option now.

 

[Kforcer]

Indeed. The era of the "pure BJJ fighter" is long gone. In MMA, the wrestler with good submission defense and simple, reliable boxing and GnP will always be the highest success, most reliable combination. You also have the striker + takedown defense as the second winning combo.

But yeah it is clear to anyone paying attention that offensive BJJ is rarely a viable option now.

I actually think that, though they won't always be forced to pay the price, especially with fewer elite top-flight grapplers switching over these days, people with a minimalist approach to submission grappling in MMA are leaving themselves vulnerable and arguably incomplete. I've personally witnessed top-athletes with strong wrestling have their lack of submission acumen exploited by guys with little athleticism but solid BJJ fundamentals.

I guess I'm not really of the school that BJJ/offensive submission-grappling doesn't work in modern MMA as much as it is underutilized. Some of the very best in the contemporary MMA landscape, like Mighty Mouse, Khabib or Jon Jones have made great use of their offensive submission-grappling. But at the same time, wrestlers with a minimalist approach to submission-grappling can undeniably get a lot of mileage out of that approach. But I actually don't recommend it, myself.

 

[Ishaq]

Indeed. The era of the "pure BJJ fighter" is long gone. In MMA, the wrestler with good submission defense and simple, reliable boxing and GnP will always be the highest success, most reliable combination. You also have the striker + takedown defense as the second winning combo.

But yeah it is clear to anyone paying attention that offensive BJJ is rarely a viable option now.

If you get a strong BJJ player with a strong offensive wrestling game, you could have tremendous success.

 

[Kforcer]

If you get a strong BJJ player with a strong offensive wrestling game, you could have tremendous success.

I agree completely. I think a BJJ player who is smart about how to use his skill-set and minimize his opponent's skill-set can go very far as well. I think right now, offensive submissions are being vastly underrated and marginalized, actually. In spite of the fact that at the very top, they are a huge factor. And lets remember, Toquinho wasn't booted from the UFC for losing.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I actually think that, though they won't always be forced to pay the price, especially with fewer elite top-flight grapplers switching over these days, people with a minimalist approach to submission grappling in MMA are leaving themselves vulnerable and arguably incomplete. I've personally witnessed top-athletes with strong wrestling have their lack of submission acumen exploited by guys with little athleticism but solid BJJ fundamentals.

I guess I'm not really of the school that BJJ/offensive submission-grappling doesn't work in modern MMA as much as it is underutilized. Some of the very best in the contemporary MMA landscape, like Mighty Mouse, Khabib or Jon Jones have made great use of their offensive submission-grappling. But at the same time, wrestlers with a minimalist approach to submission-grappling can undeniably get a lot of mileage out of that approach. But I actually don't recommend it, myself.

Of course I am making an enormous generalisation and am aware of counter examples. But I still stand by my statement.

In the end I just think that in general, submissions can be neutralised more easily than other facets of fighting. Especially submissions from systems that still place a high focus on the bottom position like BJJ.

 

[Eric O]

What's the easiest way for a New Yorker to watch this event? I love freak show matches. Unfortunately I've been out of the Japanese MMA loop.

 

[Johnny_Knuckles]

Reug reug is going to dunk this guy on his head. Just watch

 

[Kforcer]

Of course I am making an enormous generalisation and am aware of counter examples. But I still stand by my statement.

In the end I just think that in general, submissions can be neutralised more easily than other facets of fighting. Especially submissions from systems that still place a high focus on the bottom position like BJJ.

I don't entirely agree. I think certain forms of grappling, such as American folk-wrestling, and really, freestyle wrestling, even under the current rules, provide people with powerful tools to use on the ground, but those tools aren't acquired easily or quickly and they aren't necessarily implemented easily either, i.e., they require a high level of exertion .

But I think for the person that doesn't come from one of those sorts of backgrounds, who is not sufficiently skilled in the art of submission grappling, is probably going to be at his worst dealing with submissions. To some extent, striking and wrestling are intuitive; almost everyone knows how to them on some level, because everyone understands grabbing someone and controlling them or hitting or kicking someone. Submission-grappling is the one class of martial arts where that basic combat intuition isn't present. Someone can be a great natural athlete or even a skilled striker or wrestler, but ignorance of submission-grappling can leave him totally helpless to it. I can think of many times in competition, for example, where--this was prior to the leglock boom--people who had far superior wrestling credentials to me fell prey to leglock entries and finishes largely because they just didn't understand what I was doing let alone how to defend against it.

I can think of a kid I used to instruct, who was a collegiate wrestler and a very tough guy, great hip pressure, strong control, who seemed to be on the cusp of getting into the UFC, who has been caught a few times by submissions and I think it was an instance of a guy who was high-level in many ways, in his wrestling and maybe to some extent striking as well, but is a neophyte in many aspects of grappling and thus essentially helpless to certain attacks, because he just doesn't understand them. I couldn't convince him of the importance of really embracing the grappling game instead of taking a minimalist approach, because most guys he runs into can't punish him for it. But the ones who can are a problem.

Of course, I suppose as a guy that used to coach grappling at a gym that's primary focus was MMA, I might be biased. LOL.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Indeed. The era of the "pure BJJ fighter" is long gone. In MMA, the wrestler with good submission defense and simple, reliable boxing and GnP will always be the highest success, most reliable combination. You also have the striker + takedown defense as the second winning combo.

But yeah it is clear to anyone paying attention that offensive BJJ is rarely a viable option now.

And so is the era of the of the pure wreslter or pure striker, where there’s never been a pure striker era...

Who can’t win with one just skills set, and it has been this way for a long ass time...

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

And so is the era of the of the pure wreslter or pure striker, where there’s never been a pure striker era...

Who can’t win with one just skills set, and it has been this way for a long ass time...

Maybe but offensive BJJ is decreasingly part of the arsenal of top UFC fighters. That's just a fact. The go to combination right now is striking + some form of stand up grappling + sub defense.

 

[Kforcer]

Maybe but offensive BJJ is decreasingly part of the arsenal of top UFC fighters. That's just a fact. The go to combination right now is striking + some form of stand up grappling + sub defense.

The very best guys are great at submitting people though. Jon Jones, Mighty Mouse, Khabib, even Daniel Cormier to an extent.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

The very best guys are great at submitting people though. Jon Jones, Mighty Mouse, Khabib, even Daniel Cormier to an extent.

That is correct and that is an excellent example of what I am illustrating at the same time. JJ, Khabib and DC are 3 wrestlers primarily that have found a way to incorporate very efficient striking into their wrestling. Although they all have an top tier sub game they only use it opportunically when the occasion presents itself. They don't rely on subs to win AT ALL, the same way a guy like Michael Chiesa does, just as an example.