BREXIT Discussion, v3.0: World Leaders' Reaction After The U.K Voted To Leave The European Union.

[Concrete Whale]

What does lost even mean?

The UK had a say on the laws that the EU creates.

Lol.

 

[in the]

That feels to me like it is biased through your lense. From most accounts over there, Leave ran the more vocal campaign with a clear consistent message. Remain never did a good job getting its message out there. Definitely, part of the jumbled message of Remain was Leave's appeal to xenophobes, but I don't think British have the same virulent repulsion to the topic that a white southerner such as yourself has.

Attributing the "xenophobe" tag to people who disagree with you or your group just to stigmatize the opposition and not engage with them on an intellectual level is a huge reason why people voted Leave, and you just attributed that to the Leave side so I think it's retarded to attribute bias without looking in the mirror first. This comes off as projection, and if your argument is that my beliefs are limited by my geographical location, that's one of the most retarded arguments I've heard on this website (and pretty typical of people like yourself who pretend to be broadminded but hypocritically stereotype people who disagree with you). In fact, it's very xenophobic of you.

 

[Ruprecht]

Well, yes populist dissatisfaction is exactly what it was? That's democracy. Somehow populism has become this four letter word, democracy is rule by populism. In this case they happen to be right (as they are the vast majority of the time).

I am confused as to exactly what your looking for? What kind of plan? Did you expect them to negotiate with the EU before they won the vote? Do you think there is littearlly any chance that the EU would have participated in such a negotiation?

The UK also isn't in a weaker position. Independence movements are sprouting across the EU, and with damn good cause. Do you really think the EU is going to want to go head to head with that movement? Of course not, they will want to soften and adjust. Taking a hard line against these nationalist groups would be beyond stupid.

There is also the fact that the UK is a net importer from the EU, why would the the EU want to stop that? So that the UK can start dealing more with the US? How does that help the EU? The reality is that the EU will maintain as much of their connection to the UK as possible.

It was populist dissatisfaction with immigration that was displaced onto the EU. Misplaced populism. Populism is the idea that the common man is being abused by the political elites, but if that's the case, and immigration (especially of muslims) was the major issue, the common man took aim at the wrong targets.

Of course the EU will still trade with the UK, but the UK now has less influence on EU policy and still has to negotiate deals with the EU externally. That's an inherently weaker position. Also why would financial services for the EU continue to headquarter in London if there's any barrier to negotiation there? Supposedly they are already preparing to shift some of their operations.

I'm looking for practical policy instead of empty rhetoric. Some idea of how the economic approach and immigration approach will now differ... there's nothing.

How is this not a different approach? They want the mechanisms of power to move from Brussels to the UK, they want the decisions made to reflect their will instead of the will of a united Europe. They want a stop to mass immigration. But yes the aims of the group are to "get the country they once had back". That is a pretty major change from the progressive advancement.

Trump backs protectionism to a huge extent. So I don't think that is a good parallel, and I honestly don't know to what extent the leave proponents want protectionism. I don't really consider the leave side to be a united group on anything other then anti-open borders.

The EU didn't set the UK's immigration policy to any great extent. Displacing immigration anxiety on the EU was misplacing the blame. The economic and immigration policies leading to their current migrant situation were overwhelmingly British, and they aren't in any better position to negotiate them from outside the EU.

I don't disagree, but I don't see how that is substantially different then most demagogues. The function of a demagogue isn't to rule, its to initiate popular change. In this case the population of England felt abused and they acted. In this case it was the right choice.

They made a vote about an economic union into a vote about immigration. They didn't offer solutions to the economic changes they were advocating, or the dissatisfaction with immigration they identified. Personally I thought the Brits were unlikely to vote for that sort of demagoguery. I don't see how it was the right choice, because I don't see any path to improvement being offered.

Yes, but much of that was based on efficiency. As micro manufacturing (not just 3d printing btw) begins to become more efficient and effective, the roll of cities will dissipate. Imagine a world where you don't need to go into town to build a car, you simply harvest some corn, puree it and throw it in a device, come back in a few days and you have a car. That may sound crazy and fantastical, but its really not as far into the future as you would think.

The only thing that will really drive the old world methods are, the military necessity of a world with a massive population and the need for rare earth metals (which might even be solved by nano shifted polymers in the future).

It is entirely possible that small communities of a few hundred people become very popular.

Yes, I'm familiar with the ideas. I'm on the Prometheus Awards mailing list and have been reading Libertarian fantasies for decades. It's not usually the tech I find unconvincing.
I also already know of plenty of small, independent communities (some of which have been living off the grid for decades). Spent years in one myself. None of them really provided a viable model for global society though.

First off, freedom isn't mythology or marketing. I don't know how old you are, but as someone who has seen just how much less free the western world is then it used to be, I can tell you there is a tangible, real life difference.

As for the economic benefits, there aren't any benefits economically to the UK remaining in the EU. The UK isn't a monolithic entity, whats good for some in the UK is bad for others, and the EU period was not good for the majority of the UK population.

Between the freedom of being in the EU and out? I don't believe you. There's clear differences in freedom between living in Singapore and living in Australia, between the UK in the EU and out?
They made a vote about the European economic union into a vote about immigration, offering a "freedom" from an immigration policy that the EU hadn't set, and which they haven't even actually promised to address. That's marketing through and through, and Lynton Crosby pulled the same trick here. Conflating immigration and a "Stop the Boats" campaign on the small number of refugees coming here each year by boat.

 

[dontsnitch]

Look how often you see a school try to make someone take down an American flag so nobody will be offended.

Can you cite an example of this?

 

[Supereem]

LMAo i honestly cant tell if its awesome satire or you honestly are so lefitist brainwashed.

I'm usually accused of being right winged. A united Europe doesn't have to be leftist.

 

[Tycho]

Maybe your primitive brain doesn't understand the point. An EU directive is not a win or a loss. It's a document that's been drafted and had input from all the member states. Whether the UK opposed it on a point of principal is entirely irrelevant if it's had its voice heard.

I'm sorry that it was difficult to understand. Maybe you should consult with awesomesource and his superior grammar and edumacation.

Its voice was heard and ignored. We were discussing influence. I'm not sure you understand the principle sir that 'influence' becomes more and more irrelevant the larger an organisation becomes. This is why empires fell apart to begin with, it becomes harder and harder as your empire grows in size to service the needs of your different subjects, due to more and more conflicts of interest appearing.

The EU is now too large for our 'voice' to have any real consequence. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to understand. And yes, a document drafted that we opposed yet still effects our country does somewhat prove my point. Try again.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The land was signed to Great Britain via treaty. It's not like they subjugated the people of Hong Kong - if anything, Hong Kong was exponentially better under British rule than they would have been under communism.

Ah yes, they signed it over in a treaty. They looked at Hong Kong and thought, "You know the Brits would probably manage this better than we can. Let's just sign it over to them."

Had nothing to do with war or anything like that, completely voluntary and desirable on the part of the Chinese

The Ottoman Empire ended in 1924. There are a decent amount of people who are alive today who lived during the reign of the Ottoman Empire. Let's not try to pretend it's some antiquated thing, plus the colonial powers don't have the 20th century genocide like the colonial powers of Europe (Germany was never really a colonial power).

I've already mentioned that the Ottoman Empire is a relevant Empire, I just said its less relevant than the European ones because it was smaller and was dismantled less recently than the European ones.

Again, this principle of suffrage for the guilty isn't being applied across the board. There's no consistency, and it undermines the hypocrisy that the countries asked to suffer the most have also done the most to try to correct their wrongs. In the past 100 years, this is the list of genocides. Notice how the Brits aren't there?

Yeah those Brits, such philanthropists. We might as well call the British Empire the greatest humanitarian endeavor in history. Its not like they committed atrocities or anything

Between 12 and 29 million Indians died of starvation while it was under the control of the British Empire, as millions of tons of wheat were exported to Britain as famine raged in India.

In 1943, up to four million Bengalis starved to death when Winston Churchill diverted food to British soldiers and countries such as Greece while a deadly famine swept through Bengal.

Talking about the Bengal famine in 1943, Churchill said: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.”

And we haven't even gotten to the discussion how many of the countries colonized by the Brits actually did have some long-term benefits. The same can't be said about the Ottomans.

The former Ottoman colonies that are the most dysfunctional nowadays are the ones that were recolonized by the French and the British after it was dismantled. I guess that's just a coincidence.

You're proving my point - the people who want superpowers and once-superpowers to suffer are only targeting the ones who were white. It's a racist point of view. No one's arguing the suffrage of the Japanese for their heinous war crimes before and during WWII, some of the most inhumane acts ever done to one group by another in human history. This despite the fact that the Japanese are still way more xenophobic than the Europeans.

It's a racist mindset.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that some well known public figures, from Kim Kardashian to Pope Francis, have spoken out about the Armenian genocide? Are we going to ignore the fact that Japanese war crimes aren't still a contentious issue in East Asia?

The world didn't just forget about those atrocities, its just that within Western countries atrocities committed by Western powers are more often discussed because its a part of their history.

 

[Supereem]

Leftist policy and media propaganda is going too far. What's that saying? For every action, you get an equal and opposite reaction ... In my opinion, the rise in support for conservative political parties is a largely reaction to policies such as open door mass muslim immigration amongst other batshit crazy leftist policies and "blame white people" Marxist-Feminist media rhetoric...

BTW, you can still travel around Europe ... even if you ain't in the EU ...

What about working and living in another country? It all becomes harder. It was great knowing if you fall in love with a certain country or culture you could love there with little hassle.

And yeah I agree, the hardcore lefty shit is a joke, and I'm anti immigration. I posted in another thread I saw two migrants kill each other near my house this week. Their blood is still on the street. But am I anti EU? No, at most anti Germany leading it.

 

[Concrete Whale]

What do you mean by globalist? You seem to think it is a perjorative term.

Yeah apart from the fact that they worship Satan and want to reduce humanity to a population of subhuman slave droids they are really quite decent people.

 

[in the]

Why do people always talk about "The educated vote?" Just because you went to college doesn't mean you are smart. I went to college and most of my classmates were idiots.

I know people who might be able to rattle off the quadratic equation, which they haven't used since college, but don't know how to change a tire.

Not that there isn't such a thing as intelligence and education definitely plays a factor in that, but labeling people who disagree with you as plebs and claiming the intellectual high ground is not a very educated thing to do.

 

[Concrete Whale]

What about working and living in another country? It all becomes harder. It was great knowing if you fall in love with a certain country or culture you could love there with little hassle.

And yeah I agree, the hardcore lefty shit is a joke, and I'm anti immigration. I posted in another thread I saw two migrants kill each other near my house this week. Their blood is still on the street. But am I anti EU? No, at most anti Germany leading it.

Do you think Germany leads the EU? You think the German people wanted to let 1000000 of these immigrants masquerading as Syrian refugees in, open door?

 

[Sauron]

Got any evidence mate? I talked to hundreds of older people during the referendum run-up, very few crazies. They were mostly ordinary people who had thought deeply about the issue. Remember that many older people voted to join the EEC, and have witnessed its change of direction first hand. Its fairly logical for them to assume that this trend will continue, and they decided on balance it was better not to be apart of that.

My issue with the pensioner vote is that they have the least to lose. They don't have to go and get jobs or consider their career prospects. The world has moved past them, and it will move past us at some point. To put it simply: they are not going to have to live with this shit.

I don't doubt their sincerity. I just think they're wrong, and massively so. Unfortunately my generation will live with the consequences.

It's absolutely damning in my opinion that the leave campaign don't have a plan.

 

[Tycho]

I know people who might be able to rattle off the quadratic equation, which they haven't used since college, but don't know how to change a tire.

Not that there isn't such a thing as intelligence and education definitely plays a factor in that, but labeling people who disagree with you as plebs and claiming the intellectual high ground is not a very educated thing to do.

Speaking as an employer, life-experience > degrees every-time in today's world.

 

[Ruprecht]

I think a person needs to have a PHD in economics or finance or you have to at least majored/studied in it and read beyond the basics. I am still not sure what we arguing about now. If you don't have the credentials or aren't well versed beyond the basics then why is a person talking? Nobody cares what that person thinks. Smart people defer to the experts not self taught guys who "know the basics".

I am against arrogance of posters. In any case, I understand that many of these upset "remain" guys are old timers who can't get with the times. The world changes all the time.

I am loving the market turmoil and all the crying.

Yes, it doesn't surprise me that you lost track of the conversation. I pointed out that following Thatcher's neoliberal policies was exactly what had lead to the UK being in it's current position in regards to deregulation and labour movement. That Farrage, like those before him, expected to be able to do the same thing with different results.
For some reason you didn't seem to comprehend how neoliberal economic policy, economic integration, globalisation and labour movement were related.
Never mind.

 

[superpunch]

Can you cite an example of this?

Here are a few

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/08/...trict-bans-american-flags-on-campus/21227201/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...nts_voted_to_remove_american_flag_125948.html

http://www.snopes.com/Politics/immigration/flagshirts.asp (Kids forced to remove American flag shirts on Cinco De Mayo)

On the UC one: "The resolution recognized that nationalism, including U.S. nationalism, often contributes to racism and xenophobia, and that the paraphernalia of nationalism (flags) is in fact often used to intimidate. This is a more or less uncontroversial scholarly point. ...

 

[ncordless]

Attributing the "xenophobe" tag to people who disagree with you or your group just to stigmatize the opposition and not engage with them on an intellectual level is a huge reason why people voted Leave, and you just attributed that to the Leave side so I think it's retarded to attribute bias without looking in the mirror first. This comes off as projection, and if your argument is that my beliefs are limited by my geographical location, that's one of the most retarded arguments I've heard on this website (and pretty typical of people like yourself who pretend to be broadminded but hypocritically stereotype people who disagree with you). In fact, it's very xenophobic of you.

Yayaya, you can do your circular "intolerance of intolerance is intolerance" dance, but its besides the point.

You say it was a huge reason people decided to vote leave, but I have not seen much to back that up. Rather, Leave made the clearer argument and was able to evoke passion as well as reason in a way that Remain was not.

And yeah, your viewpoint as a white southerner influences your opinions. You are particularly sensitive to being called a xenophobe or racist. You hate it more than anything, really. You are much more concerned by it than xenophobia or racism. That's kind of obvious, do you disagree?

 

[Sauron]

I know people who might be able to rattle off the quadratic equation, which they haven't used since college, but don't know how to change a tire.

Not that there isn't such a thing as intelligence and education definitely plays a factor in that, but labeling people who disagree with you as plebs and claiming the intellectual high ground is not a very educated thing to do.

Well i'm not one of those people that votes on the basis of who i'd rather have a beer with; and I can change a tyre (like it really matters).

In my opinion direct democracy is hugely flawed. So is representative democracy, but less so than direct democracy.

 

[Concrete Whale]

My issue with the pensioner vote is that they have the least to lose. They don't have to go and get jobs or consider their career prospects. The world has moved past them, and it will move past us at some point. To put it simply: they are not going to have to live with this shit.

I don't doubt their sincerity. I just think they're wrong, and massively so. Unfortunately my generation will live with the consequences.

It's absolutely damning in my opinion that the leave campaign don't have a plan.

I find it disturbing that so many young people seem to have so little respect for their elders. These are the people that have kept the country going before you were born and while you were playing hopscotch in the garden, they are the country, they are the bearers of its culture and you with your vastly inferior maturity and life experience think you can just tell them they are irrelevant and wrong and their votes don't count. That's literally so wrong and inaccurate it's to the point of being psychotic.

 

[Tycho]

My issue with the pensioner vote is that they have the least to lose. They don't have to go and get jobs or consider their career prospects. The world has moved past them, and it will move past us at some point. To put it simply: they are not going to have to live with this shit.

I don't doubt their sincerity. I just think they're wrong, and massively so. Unfortunately my generation will live with the consequences.

It's absolutely damning in my opinion that the leave campaign don't have a plan.

You could also argue that being retired means you are less biased, and your vote will involve much less self-interest/short-term gain. This vote wasn't about the next 5 years, it should be about the next 50. Unless someone has dementia/or a similar mental ailment, wisdom is a real thing. Of course, you can argue that they are detached from technological advancements, but the principles which guide those advancements/humanity largely stay the same.

 

[ncordless]

Yeah apart from the fact that they worship Satan and want to reduce humanity to a population of subhuman slave droids they are really quite decent people.

Sounds very bad indeed. I loled.