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BREXIT Discussion, v3.0: World Leaders' Reaction After The U.K Voted To Leave The European Union.

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Its difficult to understand it from the perspective of a liberal. Its like how many times has the U.S. government refused to called terrorism terrorism, or how many times have liberals tried to deflect away from the root problem of Islam and instead blame other groups or blame guns. Are they aware that these extremists want them dead and want to subjugate their women like animals? The level of denial is 9000+.
 
No its not. This isn't even debatable. A representative in a foreign country is never going to provide the rational, functional control that a more localized government would. The entire notion is beyond idiotic.

Simple parallel: Do you think that being involved with a home owners association gives you more or less control over your home?

That's not the argument I made. And I'm not 100% sure you understand the structure of the EU. EU laws largely relate to trade i.e. free movement of capital and labour. Either way, as part of the EEA we would have to accept those rules in any case. The rules that we would get sovereignty over would be those that we largely had opt outs from in any case.

If that organisation is determining that the roads leading to my house can only be used by electric cars, and I only buy petrol cars, then you be damn sure I would want to change that rule to serve my interests.

Arguing that it would be beneficial on some levels is not the same thing as suggesting it gives you greater sovereignty. Those are two separate issues, there are levels at which combining is functional, practical, and rational. The EU utterly failed to provide a better quality of life for people in the UK. Period. It took away their ability to change things they wanted to change, so they left. Its not complicated.

Which is why the educated, the young and the cities voted to remain.
 
Simple parallel: Do you think that being involved with a home owners association gives you more or less control over your home?
it gives you less control over your home in exchange for more control over your neighborhood.

In the Brexit scenario, it is more like leaving the hoa with the expectation that you will probably still have to follow its rules, you just won't get to vote on what those rules are.
 
A lot of people just talk and act like they have it all figured out. More people on this forum would be more humble and better to just admit that they are nobodies, and have no power, real wealth or "inside" knowledge. If you don't have a PHD in finance or Economics and know all the inner workings of trade then I think a person should shut their mouth and stop acting like they are an expert on what will happen following Brexit. At most they have educated guesses and only parrot what the experts on TV and in media say.

By all means have an opinion but don't be so self righteous. I see a lot of that from the "remain" campaign. And have seen a lot of that on social media.

FYI I supported Remaining (and am not a UK citizen) I thought the UK had a good deal. I do however, dislike the whining and the attacks on the democratic process by those who are butthurt that their side lost.

You don't need a PHD in finance or economics to know the basics of globalisation or the economics of the EU. Anyone on this forum can obviously read. The information is there (and by "there", I don't mean youtube, social media or TV), a lot of people just don't bother to be informed.
Simple facts regarding British Immigration policy and the shift to neoliberal economic policy in the UK, aren't really matters of opinion.
It's not "my opinion" that Farage called himself a Thacherite, or that he still proposes the exact same economic policy. The information is out there...
 
Do you know what a parliamentary system is? He is still a MEMBER of parliament, he just isn't the prime minister. That role is chosen by the political party. He is still representing the people who officially voted for him.

Explaining this to Americans is tough...

I openly admit I'm not up to speed on the ins and outs of British parliament. Just seemed weird the leader would step down based on a vote to stay or leave the EU. In the entire history of the United States how many leaders have stepped down? 1? Richard Nixon. Its just not something that happens.
 
Britain opposed 55 EU directives since '96, we lost every one. This influence you refer to is rather mysterious and ethereal, care to offer up any actual evidence?

What does lost even mean?

The UK had a say on the laws that the EU creates. Whether or not it opposed the directive itself is different to whether we had input on the directive - which we almost certainly did. That's what our representatives are there for.
 
I openly admit I'm not up to speed on the ins and outs of British parliament. Just seemed weird the leader would step down based on a vote to stay or leave the EU. In the entire history of the United States how many leaders have stepped down? 1? Richard Nixon. Its just not something that happens.

Well it happens all the time in the UK.
 
I openly admit I'm not up to speed on the ins and outs of British parliament. Just seemed weird the leader would step down based on a vote to stay or leave the EU. In the entire history of the United States how many leaders have stepped down? 1? Richard Nixon. Its just not something that happens.
We don't call snap elections either. And our elections are on a much stricter calendar. It is not uncommon for a prime minister to step aside when their aganda fails. No one really wants them to be championing an agenda they disagree with anyway.
 
A great wind sweeps over Europe.The age of degeneracy is coming to an end. George Soros will be needing his 7th heart transplant soon. Seriously, add the 'Great' back to Britain already. The Moguls are shaking in their blood stained boots.
From what I understand, Soros made a killing on the markets tanking.

I hate the guy but he was smart to preach one thing while putting his money on the other side.
 
From what I've read so far...I can't say that I blame them for wanting out.

Mamma Merkel can be stuck with all the immigrants she wants. She done gone broke the camel's back with that straw.

The Germans are a pretty testy bunch. Don't you think at some point they will turn on Merkel like wild dogs?
 
Which is why the educated, the young and the cities voted to remain.
London voted to remain, the other cities didn't. Also Scotland/NI. England was mostly leave.

The educated argument relates to the intellectual echo chambers our universities have become. We are one of the greatest countries on the planet, we are all educated to a basic level, and information isn't hidden from the average person today the way it was in the past. Older people remember tyrannies they fought against, and so used their life experience to make a more informed choice. Younger people are mostly ideologues/overoptimistic. Our brains don't even fully mature until 25ish. The whole 'young people smart' concept doesn't measure up to reality. Plenty of them were too stupid/arrogant to vote. Maybe they will now learn from their mistakes.
 
That's the point. The politics seemed to be purely exploiting populist disatissfaction. Aside from personal political gain, the "plan" seems to be rolling the dice on negotiating better deals from an inherently weaker position while following the exact same economic ideology.

Well, yes populist dissatisfaction is exactly what it was? That's democracy. Somehow populism has become this four letter word, democracy is rule by populism. In this case they happen to be right (as they are the vast majority of the time).

I am confused as to exactly what your looking for? What kind of plan? Did you expect them to negotiate with the EU before they won the vote? Do you think there is littearlly any chance that the EU would have participated in such a negotiation?

The UK also isn't in a weaker position. Independence movements are sprouting across the EU, and with damn good cause. Do you really think the EU is going to want to go head to head with that movement? Of course not, they will want to soften and adjust. Taking a hard line against these nationalist groups would be beyond stupid.

There is also the fact that the UK is a net importer from the EU, why would the the EU want to stop that? So that the UK can start dealing more with the US? How does that help the EU? The reality is that the EU will maintain as much of their connection to the UK as possible.

The point was more that they aren't offering a different approach. They want to do exactly the same thing they started 30 years ago, and somehow expect that to produce different results? The reason I brought up Korea is because protectionism is regaining a populist backing, and there are examples of it working, but despite the Leave leaders hinting at it, they don't actually seem to advocate it. Trump is a similar phenomenon.

How is this not a different approach? They want the mechanisms of power to move from Brussels to the UK, they want the decisions made to reflect their will instead of the will of a united Europe. They want a stop to mass immigration. But yes the aims of the group are to "get the country they once had back". That is a pretty major change from the progressive advancement.

Trump backs protectionism to a huge extent. So I don't think that is a good parallel, and I honestly don't know to what extent the leave proponents want protectionism. I don't really consider the leave side to be a united group on anything other then anti-open borders.


Well Farage seemed to be the figure people looked to for their Eurosceptic ideology. Certainly he was one of the most vocal on the topic. Mostly a list of greivances. Still lacking any substance.
Nothing better from Johnson or any of the other vocal proponents that I've seen.

I don't disagree, but I don't see how that is substantially different then most demagogues. The function of a demagogue isn't to rule, its to initiate popular change. In this case the population of England felt abused and they acted. In this case it was the right choice.

Globalisation could theoretically be a decentralising process, the means of production in the hands of every man. I'm not counting on it though. Historically, as the scope of communication and transportation has increased, so has the scope of central authority. I'm open to alternatives.

Yes, but much of that was based on efficiency. As micro manufacturing (not just 3d printing btw) begins to become more efficient and effective, the roll of cities will dissipate. Imagine a world where you don't need to go into town to build a car, you simply harvest some corn, puree it and throw it in a device, come back in a few days and you have a car. That may sound crazy and fantastical, but its really not as far into the future as you would think.

The only thing that will really drive the old world methods are, the military necessity of a world with a massive population and the need for rare earth metals (which might even be solved by nano shifted polymers in the future).

It is entirely possible that small communities of a few hundred people become very popular.


Aside from the markets it doesn't look too chaotic to me. It just looks like sacrificing tangible economic benefit for a protest vote and a bit of marketing mythology about "freedom".

First off, freedom isn't mythology or marketing. I don't know how old you are, but as someone who has seen just how much less free the western world is then it used to be, I can tell you there is a tangible, real life difference.

As for the economic benefits, there aren't any benefits economically to the UK remaining in the EU. The UK isn't a monolithic entity, whats good for some in the UK is bad for others, and the EU period was not good for the majority of the UK population.
 
Which is why the educated, the young and the cities voted to remain.


Honest question here, how do you know the 'educated' voted overwhelmingly to remain? Is there some sort of reliable data base validating this?

And furthermore, what specific 'education' made up the majority of said 'educated voters'? Were they all 'economics' majors, for example?
 
What does lost even mean?

The UK had a say on the laws that the EU creates. Whether or not it opposed the directive itself is different to whether we had input on the directive - which we almost certainly did. That's what our representatives are there for.
It means we opposed it, yet it was passed anyway.
 
I openly admit I'm not up to speed on the ins and outs of British parliament. Just seemed weird the leader would step down based on a vote to stay or leave the EU. In the entire history of the United States how many leaders have stepped down? 1? Richard Nixon. Its just not something that happens.
To clarify, the people don't vote for someone to be our prime minister, he's elected the same way every other MP is. He's not our leader in the way a US president is yours. Has much less power.
 
From what I understand, Soros made a killing on the markets tanking.

I hate the guy but he was smart to preach one thing while putting his money on the other side.

George Soros is awesome. I would of shorted the pound and bought Gold if I had the money he had and connections. Turns out his gamble paid off.

F#ck the play it safe crowd. Soros is where he is at because he is smarter than everyone in this thread and did things his way.

I dislike Soros views on Israel and migrant crisis but he is a brilliant guy and someone to look up to for his relativity theory to markets and his impact on the world of finance.

You don't need a PHD in finance or economics to know the basics of globalisation or the economics of the EU. Anyone on this forum can obviously read. The information is there (and by "there", I don't mean youtube, social media or TV), a lot of people just don't bother to be informed.
Simple facts regarding British Immigration policy and the shift to neoliberal economic policy in the UK, aren't really matters of opinion.
It's not "my opinion" that Farage called himself a Thacherite, or that he still proposes the exact same economic policy. The information is out there...

I think a person needs to have a PHD in economics or finance or you have to at least majored/studied in it and read beyond the basics. I am still not sure what we arguing about now. If you don't have the credentials or aren't well versed beyond the basics then why is a person talking? Nobody cares what that person thinks. Smart people defer to the experts not self taught guys who "know the basics".

I am against arrogance of posters. In any case, I understand that many of these upset "remain" guys are old timers who can't get with the times. The world changes all the time.

I am loving the market turmoil and all the crying.
 
London voted to remain, the other cities didn't. Also Scotland/NI. England was mostly leave.

The educated argument relates to the intellectual echo chambers our universities have become. We are one of the greatest countries on the planet, we are all educated to a basic level, and information isn't hidden from the average person today the way it was in the past. Older people remember tyrannies they fought against, and so used their life experience to make a more informed choice. Younger people are mostly ideologues/overoptimistic. Our brains don't even fully mature until 25ish. The whole 'young people smart' concept doesn't measure up to reality. Plenty of them were too stupid/arrogant to vote. Maybe they will now learn from their mistakes.

Such nonsense. It only takes a few minutes speaking to pensioners about the present day to understand that the above is utter bollocks.

London is the economic driving force of this country. Of course it voted for remain.

The educated that you put forward is just retarded. You live in London. Most of these people have long since left universities across the country and developed their professional career.
 
Honest question here, how do you know the 'educated' voted overwhelmingly to remain? Is there some sort of reliable data base validating this?

And furthermore, what specific 'education' made up the majority of said 'educated voters'? Were they all 'economics' majors, for example?

It's interesting that the youth in Britain voted to stay while in Greece it was the opposite.

If someone can dig up the Greek vote and see what U.S. social media and liberals were saying about the youth wanting to leave, that would be great. I can only imagine that U.S. liberals were all supportive of Greece leaving or maybe not?
 
To clarify, the people don't vote for someone to be our prime minister, he's elected the same way every other MP is. He's not our leader in the way a US president is yours. Has much less power.

Gotcha. At the same time though don't you think Cameron is at heart a globalist who would dance with the devil in the pale moonlight if given the chance? What I'm saying is, he isn't big on national sovereignty.
 
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