BREXIT Discussion, v3.0: World Leaders' Reaction After The U.K Voted To Leave The European Union.

[in the]

lol @ Brexit supporters 'didn't know what they were getting into'

Bullshit. LEAVE was winning until REMAIN decided to use the death of a woman for polictical gains. People who wanted to leave the EU knew exactly what they were doing, this is the REMAIN side trying to save face because they blew it.

I don't even know if Remain was ever firmly in front, to be honest. I think a lot of people were just afraid to speak publicly about their support for Leave. They were truly the silent majority. In retrospect, it appears Remain was in front mostly because they had the most vocal support.

 

[TheStruggle]

You're from the US. You don't have a clue.

So the Labour party haven't been acting like someone shot their dog in front of them for the last 48 hours?

 

[ncordless]

Well it just became a little bit less lol.

Not really. The Earth did not get larger, and the technology that has made it so small for us has not gone away.

 

[Ruprecht]

Solutions couldn't be offered, your talking about EU jurisdiction for any real potential solutions. The UK's ability to leverage their markets was lost to the EU who were using it to create a UK that they didn't want, economically or culturally.

I never said there weren't industries that South Korea competes in, I said that for the most part they are subsidized, which they are. Korean car manufacturers are subsidized for instance. The reality is that there is a global game going on in which countries work to protect their industries. That isn't going to change soon. I also didn't mean to imply that Korea was a protectionist state, its not, I was just saying that Korea is like everywhere else.

I agree, the reaction to the situation has been driven to people focused exclusively on it. There is a huge portion of the population who have no idea what the mechanics are, they simply know that, "things were better before the foreigners came". Which is why you see the disparity between old and young, between working class and blue collar.

As for the nationalist neoliberalism, that doesn't really have any intrinsic meaning, they aren't looking to segregate within the UK, that would be true but an odd aside?

Nobody says anything of any substance on twitter, the left screeches, the right screams. Its pablum.

I mean solutions post Brexit. What are they planning to do now to address the political dissatisfaction? What was the Brexit supposed to enable? They targeted the dissatisfaction no worries at all, but with no regard for offering a realistic solution what so ever. Something of a Lynton Crosby specialty.

S. Korea isn't like everywhere else though. That's the "Asian Tiger" model, as opposed to the neoliberalism emerging everywhere else at the time. The limited use of protectionism, not as a trade weapon or to sustain industries which are no longer viable, but to establish new, competitive industries. It's a valid approach, but nothing like that has been proposed. In fact, despite the rhetorical hints from Johnson in regards to British manufacturing, no protectionism or trade alternatives have been described at all as far as I can see.

Well, it's not really an aside. The original post you replied to was about how Farage is a self identified Thatcherite, and yet he's railing against the inevitable result of that neoliberal shift in the '80s. He offers no solutions to the problems caused, but adheres to the same essential ideology. Arguing against centralised authority and regulation, but defending closed borders and the free movement of capital. As far as I'm concerned, his lot, the Mont Pelrin society, the Atlas Network and their spawn around the globe, are what really kicked the process into overdrive without sufficient regard for workers (although I think globalisation's a technological inevitability).

Yes, I just wanted to clarify that when I talked about discussion from a political group, I wasn't referring to the social media posts of a bunch of random nobodies. That seems to be a common thing to post in here these days.

 

[TheStruggle]

I don't even know if Remain was ever firmly in front, to be honest. I think a lot of people were just afraid to speak publicly about their support for Leave. They were truly the silent majority. In retrospect, it appears Remain was in front mostly because they had the most vocal support.

Alot like the Left/Right in America. The Left's support is always the most vocal and the right supporters keep to themselves

 

[Yellowking]

Can someone outline the positive effects this is having or going to have? All I see are negatives, the markets have taken a dive and there isn't an end in sight. Maybe someone who is pro-Brexit can tell me when that will stop. If a recession actually starts, was that expected on the pro-leave side, is it worth it?

 

[Phlog]

An American friend of mine put it pretty succinctly: did y'all just go and build a wall?

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Alot like the Left/Right in America. The Left's support is always the most vocal and the right supporters keep to themselves

Have you been to the US?
Right supporters are just as vocal as the left, neither knows when to stfu .

 

[Phlog]

I don't even know if Remain was ever firmly in front, to be honest. I think a lot of people were just afraid to speak publicly about their support for Leave. They were truly the silent majority. In retrospect, it appears Remain was in front mostly because they had the most vocal support.

What the polls suggest is that the leave campaign attracted people who had a much lower level of education. We have slightly more of these people. Also people were more likely to have voted to leave the older they were so they have less chance to live to see the consequences.

 

[Sauron]

But there won't be any new restrictions on trade or extra pay tariffs for Britian to face outside the EU. Markus Kerber has already admitted this and major manufacturers like Toyota, Vauxhall and Land Rover have all said they aren't worried about the situation. All the EU's threats, posturing and muscle flexing on the issue was just scare mongering to try and bully people into voting how they wanted. You guys need to stop swallowing the EU propaganda and stop being so scared and paranoid, it isn't healthy.

That's not the point.

It's fully expected that the UK will join the European Economic Area. This entitles the UK with access to the single market. EEA members have to accept all EU rules and free movement of people. They also have to pay into it; access isn't free. Also, you have no decision making capacity as an EEA member.

So we go from a situation where we:
Pay into the EU, accept all EU rules, accept free movement of labour AND have a say in how the rules are created; to
all of the above with NO say in how rules get created.

We pay exactly the same and get less. This decision making capability is utterly crucial. Today is a great example of this that will be appreciated by anyone with any nous whatsoever. Lord Hill resigned as leader of the financial services office in the EU. This is a post that the UK lobbied hard for to control the direction of financial services because it's a massive part of our economy. Now that influence is gone. Some frenchman will be taking up this post in all likelihood with all the influence that goes with it. The EBA located in London will have to locate. EU funding will go. Cornwall is already asking for guarantees that it will get money back that it will lose.

The net benefit is what exactly?

People think that they're going to get back all the money from the EU and they are flat out wrong.

Watching Farage and Hannan backpedal as they embrace the reality of the situation would be funny if I wasn't affected by this looming mess. Boris and Gove looked like they just pushed their car into a lake. "What now?"

Mark my words: this is going to be awful. The UK (minus Scotland most likely) won't go under. But we will suffer for it: in terms of jobs, global profile and influence. I'm not for EU sanctions against Russia, but how long do you think they will last without the US's chief advocate in the EU? Do you really not appreciate how having a seat at the time of the EU is a massive benefit for the UK?

Our economy was on the way up. Now we've sacrificed that for uncertainty and false promises. By the time we all realise the damage will have been done.

 

[MicroBrew]

lol @ Brexit supporters 'didn't know what they were getting into'

Bullshit. LEAVE was winning until REMAIN decided to use the death of a woman for polictical gains. People who wanted to leave the EU knew exactly what they were doing, this is the REMAIN side trying to save face because they blew it.

The people who voted Leave are elderly, people who have worked for a good portion of their lives and are more expereinced in life. It's is ironic the Remain camp who got most of the young vote would try to paint the Leave voters as not knowing what they were getting into.

 

[MusterX]

Its quite disturbing the level of indoctrination that young people have been subjected to. Its like they can't believe it. Who wouldn't want us to all be one big happy family? Humanity united as one. The problem is that its utopian in nature, a long held pipe dream that we can all be as one. I see why they are mad. From their view its like asking, how can you not want us to all be united as one? It goes back to the indoctrination and propaganda though because none of it is grounded in reality.

 

[TheStruggle]

Can someone outline the positive effects this is having or going to have? All I see are negatives, the markets have taken a dive and there isn't an end in sight. Maybe someone who is pro-Brexit can tell me when that will stop. If a recession actually starts, was that expected on the pro-leave side, is it worth it?

People value their freedom and Independence over money...Shocking I know. That's why Italy, France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary all want out as well. Germany too if their chancellor was the biggest scumbag politician in the world ATM

 

[in the]

Europeans are singled out because their empires were the last to go and have the most consequence on the modern world. The Ottoman empire was dismantled in 1918 while the last British territory(Hong Kong) was ceded in 1997 and the British Empire was still mostly intact by the end of WW2 and was only largely dsmantled by the mid 60s meaning its well within living memory

Btw I've often said the Ottoman system and its legacy is largely why the Middle East is so dysfunctional but that's because it was a largely decentralized system that made the region ill equipped to enter the modern nations state paradigm. The Ottoman Empire was much more like the empires of old; continuous and imposing a decentralized imperial structure with the purpose of mainly generating taxation. The empires built after the age of exploration were much more exploitative and about mining those territories for as much resources as possible. And the Turks renounced their imperialist past with the creation of the modern Turkish state while the Brits had another half century of imperialism under their belt after the end of the Ottomans. And despite all that I do think its only fair for the Turks to bear the brunt of the refugee crisis given their proximity and complicity in that mess.

As far as to how long this should be relevant, maybe a bit longer given the fact that German nationalists have to constantly deal with the shadow of Nazism while the Brits are still proud of their oppressive, exploitative empire. I don't think Brits or other Europeans should have to feel personally guilty or mold their policy to in response to the grievances of colonialism but when France has a Muslim population that is largely built from migrants that came from its former colony Algeria, which it fought a brutal war with when it dared to assert its independence, I'm not going to feel so sorry for them.

I do feel sorry for the Swiss though. Its too bad they're so fucking dumb so as to self flagellate themselves at the alter of white guilt when they haven't exactly had the same recent rap sheet as the French or British.

lol dude, the British empire didn't end in 1997. That's just when the 200 year treaty with China expired. I remember that when it happened, I was a teenager who paid more attention to boobs and video games but I remember it becoming a fairly large brouhaha, as the citizens of Hong Kong feared their capitalist system would be overtaken by the communist Chinese government. Anyway, that wasn't colonialism or exploitation. The Brits held their side of the treaty even though the citizens of Hong Kong didn't want to return to the fold (IIRC, it's been 20 years).

Like Murray said, the Ottoman empire was around for much longer than the British empire but most people don't require that they suffer for their sins. It's only European (aka white) cultures who are expected to pay. This completely overlooks the fact that they already corrected their wrong and gave their territories independence. In effect, the belief that only white countries must suffer is rooted in racism and bigotry. I don't see these same people saying the MENA region absolutely must suffer because of their lengthy history of slaving.

I'm not really into fuzzy, open-ended suffrage timetables, especially when they aren't applied across the board. I have a lot of criticisms of Turkey but at least they do have refugee camps there, got to give them credit.

 

[TheStruggle]

Have you been to the US?
Right supporters are just as vocal as the left, neither knows when to stfu .

The left has a much bigger media presence than the right

 

[ncordless]

I don't even know if Remain was ever firmly in front, to be honest. I think a lot of people were just afraid to speak publicly about their support for Leave. They were truly the silent majority. In retrospect, it appears Remain was in front mostly because they had the most vocal support.

You think Remain had the most vical support? What are you basing that on. Many people seem to think Remain's fatal flaw was sitting on their hands while Leave was getting their message out.

 

[MusterX]

Not really. The Earth did not get larger, and the technology that has made it so small for us has not gone away.

Independence and sovereignty should be celebrated. Frankly its disturbing as fuck the number of young people who can't seem to grasp its importance.

 

[Xuh]

The seat at the top-table is more important.

This is like stepping down from the board level to middle management, and then finding out that board decisions affect everyone, and you had no say in the forthcoming restructuring.

The seat at the top table is important for the Tony Blairs of this world, but doesn't really represent control for the 'man in the street' who (increasingly) is opposed to the decisions made by such people and feels they have a negative impact on their life (which they do, IMO), and also the world around them (just look at the disasters wrought by 'our' powerful institutions in Libya, Iraq, Syria, & the handling of the fallout (Merkel sez take 'em all in, dissent and you will be punished, Visegrad scallywags, your plebians must bow down to the control of the top-table!), none of which would have happened if those decisions were at the control of the wider populii rather than a cabal of unelected Tony Blairs 'at the top seat' with that 'power and control' I am somehow supposed to think is important for 'me' to have.

 

[Yellowking]

People value their freedom and Independence over money...Shocking I know. That's why Italy, France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary all want out as well. Germany too if their chancellor was the biggest scumbag politician in the world ATM

If influence is lost, jobs are lost, and competitive ability are lost, isn't that basically losing freedom? Ie, your ability to impact the world, provide for your people, assert your power on the world market.

 

[TheStruggle]

Independence and sovereignty should be celebrated. Frankly its disturbing as fuck the number of young people who can't seem to grasp its importance.

That's because young people are too busy listening to the John Oliver's and Rachel Maddow's of the world feeding them globalists talking points to form their own opinions. Why do you think people finally smarter up the older they get? They can finally see through the bullshit because they aren't the impressionable dumb college kids they use to be.