Body type and style?

[beat...people...up?]

I'm still relatively new, but I already hear the instructors talking about how "this move isn't good for those with short legs" (triangle choke, for example). So far, I don't necessarily find this applies to all people, but can be interesting to think about.

I'm curious about how people who've been practicing for awhile feel. Do you have certain moves that are easier for you or harder for you based on your build? Or are these moves that you're great at despite being not conventionally "built for it"?

 

[BADodd06]

Almost any move can be acquired if you take the time to work on it and adjust it to your body type. I'm 5'8 with muscular legs yet I'm known for my triangles. Yet despite being a shorter strong guy, I relatively suck at key locks which are supposed to be tailor made for me.
Whatever the move/sub may be, if you want to learn it and make it yours, then spend the time on it and make it work............................within reason.
I'm not saying be a 4'10 spider guard player or nonsense like that though.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Do whatever looks fun to you. People used to tell me I would be good at triangles with my chicken legs. I like Marcelo, so I play butterfly & slx non-stop instead.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Do whatever looks fun to you. People used to tell me I would be good at triangles with my chicken legs. I like Marcelo, so I play butterfly & slx non-stop instead.

Me too. I was a brown belt before I could triangle people consistently despite being a long legged 6'2", but my whole guard game is BF/SLX/X.

As for TS's question, I think the specificity of certain moves to certain body types is way overrated. Yes, if you're really stocky and stumpy it will be hard to play closed guard or a triangle heavy game against heavy people, but that's sort of a corner case. Most moves will work for most body types if you put in the effort to get good at them, personally I think psychology is much more important for choosing your game. Play what feels natural, what you enjoy, whatever fits your natural inclinations and figure out how to make it work. Learn as much as you can so you can get a feel for the entirety of the technical repertoire and then (late blue belt or so) start narrowing down your game to what you actually have a feel for.

 

[mataleaos]

Absolutes like that are mostly not great I think.

Marcelo Garcia believes his arms are too short for arm-in chokes like darces or arm-in guillotines, so he does arm-out guillotines. Jeff Glover is way smaller, with arms that aren't longer, and he's famous for his darces and arm-in guillotines.

Marcelo and Rafa Mendes are great examples. They both use wildly different techniques for the same reasons (that they're more effective against larger opponents). So it just goes to show you that almost any technique can be used well by most people.

Find a game that works for you, and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do a certain move or shouldn't work on something you like because it's not "a good fit" for you.

Marcelo Garcia has stumpy little legs and amazing triangles. He may not have as many crazy ways to set them up, but he won the finals of most prestigious submission grappling tournament on earth with a triangle.

Find your game and enjoy the journey!

 

[Thaijitsu612]

Absolutes like that are mostly not great I think.

Marcelo Garcia believes his arms are too short for arm-in chokes like darces or arm-in guillotines, so he does arm-out guillotines. Jeff Glover is way smaller, with arms that aren't longer, and he's famous for his darces and arm-in guillotines.

Marcelo and Rafa Mendes are great examples. They both use wildly different techniques for the same reasons (that they're more effective against larger opponents). So it just goes to show you that almost any technique can be used well by most people.

Find a game that works for you, and don't let anyone tell you that you can't do a certain move or shouldn't work on something you like because it's not "a good fit" for you.

Marcelo Garcia has stumpy little legs and amazing triangles. He may not have as many crazy ways to set them up, but he won the finals of most prestigious submission grappling tournament on earth with a triangle.

Find your game and enjoy the journey!

Does jeff glover have many darces over bigger guys? I think marvelous argument is because he like competing in absolute he focused on techniques that would against any opponent.



But mostly you'll naturally discover what style works best for you.

 

[mataleaos]

Does jeff glover have many darces over bigger guys? I think marvelous argument is because he like competing in absolute he focused on techniques that would against any opponent.



But mostly you'll naturally discover what style works best for you.

I’m competition he has a fair amount before camera phones were prevalent in the old grapplers quest days. Mid and late 00’s. And I’m the gym he does them on big guys. Depending how big though, he sometimes switches to the shallow darce grip that Rener is praising a lot right now where he goes hand to forearm instead of hand to bicep.

 

[Forceof1]

I think instructor tends to influence games a lot as well (not exclusively, but it plays a role).

Part of it comes down to your goals. If you are serious competitor, there are certain positions / moves you must be good / comfortable at in order to play the competition meta game at a high level. And you need to drill the shit out of them. But that game is also weight class dependent, with top pressure / passing becoming more important the heavier you get.

Personally- I think white and blue belts should be exposed to everything. Standing passes, crushing passing, closed guard, butterfly, open guard, spider, SLX, DLR, etc. With enough exposure and practice- you'll find what comes naturally to you.

Personally- as I'm hitting 40 and not to worried about competition - I prefer the "jack of all trades, master of none (yet)" approach. I like playing different guards or having different goals for the day. Some days I'm soul crushing top pressure, mounted cross choke guy. Other days I'm open guard / DLR wreslting for single leg take downs all day guy. Others its spider guard, deep half, etc.

Figure out what BJJ is for you, and how to maximize your enjoyment with it. Some day in the next 2-3 years I'll be a hobbyist blackbelt who can give just about anyone an enjoyable, technical and competent roll wherever the roll takes it. I can ramp it up for a round or two if necessary. I'm fine with that. Find what will be fine for you, and train for that.

 

[mataleaos]

Does jeff glover have many darces over bigger guys? I think marvelous argument is because he like competing in absolute he focused on techniques that would against any opponent.



But mostly you'll naturally discover what style works best for you.

I love Marcelo. I truly do. His game was the first game that really made sense to me and I would have quit the art without MGinaction. I think he's the greatest of all time.

However I do think are absolute argument and the techniques he's chosen for that reason isn't the perfect argument. he still has techniques chosen due to some unique physical and technical attributes that he has, and his argument about what techniques work best against people of all sizes still ignores his personality body type, and attributes. There are other small guys that do well in absolutes that prefer completely different techniques than he does. For example, Marcelo dislikes DLR and RDLR for the same reason Rafa Mendes likes those. Marcelo doesn't think they're ideal against larger people and Rafa believes they're perfect for larger people. And both guys aren't really wrong on that. Rafa isn't wrong. He used RDLR and DLR against Rodolfo and totally shut down any and all passing attempts and kept the weight off him. They are sort of both right, but I'm not generally in favor of widespread absolutes like that.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

I love Marcelo. I truly do. His game was the first game that really made sense to me and I would have quit the art without MGinaction. I think he's the greatest of all time.

However I do think are absolute argument and the techniques he's chosen for that reason isn't the perfect argument. he still has techniques chosen due to some unique physical and technical attributes that he has, and his argument about what techniques work best against people of all sizes still ignores his personality body type, and attributes. There are other small guys that do well in absolutes that prefer completely different techniques than he does. For example, Marcelo dislikes DLR and RDLR for the same reason Rafa Mendes likes those. Marcelo doesn't think they're ideal against larger people and Rafa believes they're perfect for larger people. And both guys aren't really wrong on that. Rafa isn't wrong. He used RDLR and DLR against Rodolfo and totally shut down any and all passing attempts and kept the weight off him. They are sort of both right, but I'm not generally in favor of widespread absolutes like that.

I agree in general about absolutes like that. I don't think there is anything at all wrong about Marcelo's philosophy, but it's not the only right approach.

There are some guys who are simply too large for me to triangle or anaconda/ darce/arm triangle. However, they are simply too effective against to many people for me to not use them at all. They've become a central part of my game over the last year even though I used to neglect them because Marcelo thought process made sense to me.

I'm also really finding that shallow darce you mentioned to be way more effective then I expected

 

[beat...people...up?]

This is an interesting discussion, thank you everyone. Personally, I'm a bit relieved, because I don't have any particular outstanding physical characteristics. My arms are kind of long, but I have yet to learn how to use them properly and not get them caught somewhere.

Pursuant to other parts of the discussion --> I constantly get stuck IN d'arce and arm triangles somehow, not sure why exactly. I think I'm just not looking out for them yet. I keep thinking I can recover my elbow and then... I can't.

 

[shunyata]

It's all relative man.

A guy with shorter stockier limbs may find some moves harder to apply but easier to finish if they can be locked up. I've known short heavy guys who couldn't lock a triangle at all and guys the same height and weight who had a vicious crushing triangle.

A guy with longer limbs may find it easier to lock up a triangle with their legs or arms but have to do more work to eliminate the space in the middle.

Depending on both the subtle intricacies of your body and the huge weight of what you practice, how often you drill it, and how it works for you in reality you may over time lean towards certain types of moves.

 

[mataleaos]

This is an interesting discussion, thank you everyone. Personally, I'm a bit relieved, because I don't have any particular outstanding physical characteristics. My arms are kind of long, but I have yet to learn how to use them properly and not get them caught somewhere.

Pursuant to other parts of the discussion --> I constantly get stuck IN d'arce and arm triangles somehow, not sure why exactly. I think I'm just not looking out for them yet. I keep thinking I can recover my elbow and then... I can't.

Regarding the bolded a lot of people on both offense and defense worry about the trapped elbow when the trapped shoulder is the problem. Getting your shoulder free is what matter. You can amputate someone's arm above the elbow and arm triangle or darce them just fine. The shoulder is what counts. So worst case scenario if you're trapped deep inside the choke, forcing open the space between your neck and your trapped shoulder is what I would focus on.

The choker wants to pop and imaginary bubble between your shoulder the your neck. As the chokee, you want to keep that bubble open.

 

[DanaWhitesButler]

I think it is true that some techniques are better for certain body types but I would encourage you to find that out on your own and not let any teammates or instructors discourage you from learning which submissions are best for you. You might surprise yourself. Find your limitations on your own through competition and training and don't let others impose them on you. For example, there is some MMA fighter with no hand who guillotines the shit out of people all the time. You wouldn't think that's possible but it is. Learn the mechanics of every basic submission, work to get better at all of them, and after some time you will start to develop your own style and preference based on what you've learned about those moves and your body.

 

[Gandhi]

Me too. I was a brown belt before I could triangle people consistently despite being a long legged 6'2", but my whole guard game is BF/SLX/X.

As for TS's question, I think the specificity of certain moves to certain body types is way overrated. Yes, if you're really stocky and stumpy it will be hard to play closed guard or a triangle heavy game against heavy people, but that's sort of a corner case. Most moves will work for most body types if you put in the effort to get good at them, personally I think psychology is much more important for choosing your game. Play what feels natural, what you enjoy, whatever fits your natural inclinations and figure out how to make it work. Learn as much as you can so you can get a feel for the entirety of the technical repertoire and then (late blue belt or so) start narrowing down your game to what you actually have a feel for.

Really, see bold

I am 6'2 and have rally been trying to follow the exact same route (with some half guard thrown in as that's where BF lands me a lot). I am using the Kesting stuff (dynamic butterfly/x, dynamic half gaurd sweeps, slx master class, as well as his other stuff ), and having mixed results (slx going well, half g ok, butterfly frustrating at times). Any recommendations for vids? I really like the kesting stuff, but some of the older stuff if is a bit scattered.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Really, see bold

I am 6'2 and have rally been trying to follow the exact same route (with some half guard thrown in as that's where BF lands me a lot). I am using the Kesting stuff (dynamic butterfly/x, dynamic half gaurd sweeps, slx master class, as well as his other stuff ), and having mixed results (slx going well, half g ok, butterfly frustrating at times). Any recommendations for vids? I really like the kesting stuff, but some of the older stuff if is a bit scattered.

At the risk of this becoming a treatise, I'll tell you about my guard game. There are some differences between what I'll do with and without the gi, but for the most part my game is fairly universal (doesn't even change that much for MMA other than placing a much higher priority on scrambling back to the feet rather than actively engaging in guard work).

• Against a standing opponent at a distance I'm looking to get some form of leg control. If uke is close enough for me to just reach out and grab, I'll try to get a shin-shin position with a very deep arm wrap, ideally his calf in the crook of my elbow. From there it his weight is neutral or angling out I'll pull into SLX, if his weight is inside (like he's trying to knee slice) I'll look to come up on a single. If I get to SLX I'll try to sweep, if it's not working the switch to X is always there. With the gi I'll also play cross collar + sleeve just for distance management and to set up omoplatas. It's riskier in the gi to hang out in a shin-shin position just because the passer can kill a lot of your activity with pants grips. You have to move when you get there.
  
  • If uke is too far away to get a good leg grip, I'm going to come up to at least one knee and look to shoot. I'll often shoot just to get to the leg and then pull right back into guard, but I don't butt scoot. I think it's just too slow against a highly mobile opponent (and it's a terrible idea for MMA).
• Against a kneeling opponent I play butterfly. I'm very careful to keep my hands in front of my feet and not engage my hooks until I have good upper body or wrist control. If you engage your hooks prematurely, you're at great risk of getting flattened and passed, or leg weaved. In terms of what I'm looking for it's pretty basic stuff. Cross arm grips lead to arm drags and hook flips, a low head from uke leads to snap downs to guillotines and coming up on top turtle, double unders leads to leg lock entries, double overs or over/under leads to hook flips. A few things you have to have on lock to play butterfly well (at least for me):
  • you need to kick out and arm drag instantly against someone controlling your ankles
  • If you opponent puts one foot up, get to shin-shin instantly or ideally ankle pick
  • If uke leads with his head to try and flatten you, scooting back and guillotining needs to be fast
  • If uke sits on your feet to try and kill your mobility, you have to make space and kick one out right away
  • Any time uke is able to split your guard and get a foot in the middle, you have to either come up on a single or pummel your leg back inside instantly. The importance of controlling inside space here cannot be overstated.
• When forced to I play half guard. It's not a guard I go to by choice, though sometimes I'll play a butterfly half when I'm looking for specific leg lock entries. When I do have to play it, the most important things are to control uke's far wrist while framing on his face/neck/shoulder with your top side hand. If you can do both you'll kill the cross face, the leg scoop, and block the underhook. From those frames, be ready to circle your arm under for the underhook. Don't release the far wrist until you can glue your head to uke's hip. That prevents the cross face. Now you can release and shoot your bottom side arm under the leg and start entering the Leite series, which I believe to be the best way of playing traditional half guard.

That's pretty much it from a high level standpoint. The specific techniques you can learn anywhere, the hard part about playing this style of guard is that you have to be extremely active and fast on your responses, you can't really let uke ever get strong control of your legs, flatten you out, or control inside space. You also have to develop a feel for when you can attack the preferred inside angle to get under and into the SLX stuff, and when you have to take the outside angle with omoplatas and single legs. Other than that I'd have to actually watch you roll to give you more pertinent advice, but failure to have a sense of urgency about bad positioning (and not pulling the trigger when you have a momentary positional advantage) is the number one mistake I see people making playing the BF/X complex. This is not a guard system that features slow systematic setups. It's a lot more like wrestling or striking where you use movement, feints, and forced reactions to create brief openings that you have to seize right away.

 

[Gandhi]

At the risk of this becoming a treatise, I'll tell you about my guard game. There are some differences between what I'll do with and without the gi, but for the most part my game is fairly universal (doesn't even change that much for MMA other than placing a much higher priority on scrambling back to the feet rather than actively engaging in guard work).

• Against a standing opponent at a distance I'm looking to get some form of leg control. If uke is close enough for me to just reach out and grab, I'll try to get a shin-shin position with a very deep arm wrap, ideally his calf in the crook of my elbow. From there it his weight is neutral or angling out I'll pull into SLX, if his weight is inside (like he's trying to knee slice) I'll look to come up on a single. If I get to SLX I'll try to sweep, if it's not working the switch to X is always there. With the gi I'll also play cross collar + sleeve just for distance management and to set up omoplatas. It's riskier in the gi to hang out in a shin-shin position just because the passer can kill a lot of your activity with pants grips. You have to move when you get there.
  • If uke is too far away to get a good leg grip, I'm going to come up to at least one knee and look to shoot. I'll often shoot just to get to the leg and then pull right back into guard, but I don't butt scoot. I think it's just too slow against a highly mobile opponent (and it's a terrible idea for MMA).
• Against a kneeling opponent I play butterfly. I'm very careful to keep my hands in front of my feet and not engage my hooks until I have good upper body or wrist control. If you engage your hooks prematurely, you're at great risk of getting flattened and passed, or leg weaved. In terms of what I'm looking for it's pretty basic stuff. Cross arm grips lead to arm drags and hook flips, a low head from uke leads to snap downs to guillotines and coming up on top turtle, double unders leads to leg lock entries, double overs or over/under leads to hook flips. A few things you have to have on lock to play butterfly well (at least for me):
  • you need to kick out and arm drag instantly against someone controlling your ankles
  • If you opponent puts one foot up, get to shin-shin instantly or ideally ankle pick
  • If uke leads with his head to try and flatten you, scooting back and guillotining needs to be fast
  • If uke sits on your feet to try and kill your mobility, you have to make space and kick one out right away
  • Any time uke is able to split your guard and get a foot in the middle, you have to either come up on a single or pummel your leg back inside instantly. The importance of controlling inside space here cannot be overstated.
• When forced to I play half guard. It's not a guard I go to by choice, though sometimes I'll play a butterfly half when I'm looking for specific leg lock entries. When I do have to play it, the most important things are to control uke's far wrist while framing on his face/neck/shoulder with your top side hand. If you can do both you'll kill the cross face, the leg scoop, and block the underhook. From those frames, be ready to circle your arm under for the underhook. Don't release the far wrist until you can glue your head to uke's hip. That prevents the cross face. Now you can release and shoot your bottom side arm under the leg and start entering the Leite series, which I believe to be the best way of playing traditional half guard.

That's pretty much it from a high level standpoint. The specific techniques you can learn anywhere, the hard part about playing this style of guard is that you have to be extremely active and fast on your responses, you can't really let uke ever get strong control of your legs, flatten you out, or control inside space. You also have to develop a feel for when you can attack the preferred inside angle to get under and into the SLX stuff, and when you have to take the outside angle with omoplatas and single legs. Other than that I'd have to actually watch you roll to give you more pertinent advice, but failure to have a sense of urgency about bad positioning (and not pulling the trigger when you have a momentary positional advantage) is the number one mistake I see people making playing the BF/X complex. This is not a guard system that features slow systematic setups. It's a lot more like wrestling or striking where you use movement, feints, and forced reactions to create brief openings that you have to seize right away.

Thanks this is really helpful, I appreciate the treatise. It mostly lines up with what I have been experiencing. The only thing I am really missing (besides lots an lots of practice) is the idea of working singles and omaplatas from the outside angle. Any examples you can think of online?

 

[Gandhi]

Thanks this is really helpful, I appreciate the treatise. It mostly lines up with what I have been experiencing. The biggest thing from here I am really missing (besides lots an lots of practice) is the idea of working singles and omaplatas from the outside angle. Any examples you can think of online?

 

[yetanother]

The moves you can use depend on your body style vs your opponents.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Thanks this is really helpful, I appreciate the treatise. It mostly lines up with what I have been experiencing. The only thing I am really missing (besides lots an lots of practice) is the idea of working singles and omaplatas from the outside angle. Any examples you can think of online?

Not many out there, oddly. Here's a good single leg one: