BJJ student wins $46 million after being paralyzed

[Einheri]

Any idea on how much of that $46 million he will actually get?

Very little. There's no way a Jiu-Jitsu school owner has, or ever will have, that amount of money. If it's a crippling (forgive the pun) amount of money garnished from his income, he may even just sell up and leave the country.

 

[ooitzoo]

Very little. There's no way a Jiu-Jitsu school owner has, or ever will have, that amount of money. If it's a crippling (forgive the pun) amount of money garnished from his income, he may even just sell up and leave the country.

Disagree

The gym has insurance. The plaintiff will, most likely, collect the maximum insurance amount. He will then attempt to collect the remainder from the gym (note, "the gym" and "the gym owner" are two different entities in most instances). So its likely he'll land on something like $10mm. The gym will likely close and the owner will reopen under a different name / corp.

 

[Nnedd]

I've sat with this for a while after reading the initial report. Turns out, as we've all read, there is a bit more to this than the initial reports indicated.

My first thought, is that I am a black belt and I very well could have done the roll the same way, with the same result. Thers is this assumption by the general public that black belt means you are an expert in all facets of the art, which is of course ridiculous. I've trained going on 15 years, I have a black belt, I'm a successful competitor and teacher, and I am still learning and refining things every single time I train. Being a black belt, being an instructor, being a school owner, those things don't mean you know every thing about every position. I think that this is the undlerying issue that I have with some of what Rener was saying. Setting up a precedent for jiu jitsu black belts to be encyclopedias of every and all technique is laughable.

I don't use that back take often, in part because I'm not super familiar with it and I have other attacks. When I do it, my cues are to put my legs on the other side of the body from my head, and to use my shoulder to push the head in. With those cues, I think I could possibly do the move and have the same result. I only do it from seat belt, so I guess I don't trap the posting arm. But the point is still the same.

I do think that I have a mind toward safety more than lesser experienced practioners and this is a reasonable expection of a so called expert in the art. I release chokes and locks and withdraw from positions that I feel might be damaging to my partner. But I think there are just too many variables involved in the day to day training of live combat to control.


An added thought, is that I'm ok with the lawsuit and settlement, and I might have even encouraged it if I were the school owner. Thinking about it from my own perspective, if I were rolling with a guy and he was paralyzed while I did a move, I would probably want to do what I could to help him out. I'm working off of some assumptions here, but I'm guessing that he sued the school and instructor, insurance got involved, and insurance is ultimately the one fought it and took it to trial instead of settling.

I mean, if I paralyzed a guy and he wanted to sue my insurance company, I'd probably be all for it. That's what it's there for, hopefully it can alleviate his losses. I wouldn't expect it to be a 46 million dollar sum, but I don't think I'd hold it against him. Maybe that means I lose my school, but so be it I guess.

There are some things in life, where everyone is going to come out with mud on them, and I think this is one of them. Except Rener. His reputation might take a hit, but I think ultimately he comes out pretty ok here. He sets up his bullshit program as the standard for jiu jitsu, he makes 100k, he gets press (which as the saying goes, good or bad, it's still press). I haven't watched his video because I cannot stomach to hear him talk, but I've read recaps and there is some validity in his points, but I think it's disingenous and self serving for him to call this negligence.

Initial reports where that the guy was spiked on his head with the body weight of his opponent added. This kind of description certainly seems like it would be negligent. What happened wasn't that.

There's alot to process here, and I think I'm still processing my thoughts on it, but that's a good taste of where I'm at.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

As a judo guy, I've definitely seen accounts of people who cross-train judo and BJJ trying stuff they've learned from BJJ and trying it out in judo class - stuff like the buggy choke seems to get it a lot - and being told not too by the sensei - you only do what the sensei's taught.

I'm really glad of the innovation that BJJ brings, but I do think that judo has had since the very start and emphasis on safety specifically in training, which means that it's very slow to accept new techniques unless it's certain that they're safe. Hell, recently korean seio nage got banned in shiai because it can cause bad shoulder injuries and is very difficult to recieve safely due to the positioning of the throw. Which kind of sucks, because it is a legitimately sweet technique.

With this specific case I'm not qualified to say whether it was negligent or not - I'm not a BJJ guy. But I do think that a high profile case like this should be a sign to all practicioners and instructors to emphasize safety in training. Shit can be dangerous, even when you're doing techniques that are normally safe. My only comment - and this is one that isn't an informed opinion, since I'm a judoka, not a BJJ guy - is that perhaps this style of back take is one thatn should only be practiced in rolling with more experienced partners because safety in grappling like this is two sided coin - you need to know how to perform a technique safely, and how to recieve a technique safely and if this guy was new, he might not have known the danger of what he was doing moving his head like he did.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

(JJF) You'd be surprised by how many moves have been forbidden in judo competition.(/JJF)

There's an endless list of videos of judokas landing on their head on purpose to avoid landing on their backs. I love judo and I think it's cool as fuck, but it's definitely not my go-to when I think about ''spine safety''.

That would be illegal and you'd be immediately disqualified for violating safety rule. Thanks for bringing up a perfect example.

 

[mattemate]

This is surprisingly divisive. I was blocked on FB by a bb from my association. He had a spinal injury in the past so I think it's a sore spot. But we didn't get contentious or anything, I just said I'm open to what Rener said, but I don't like Rener.

He's just an incredibly disingenuous person. I hate that shit. I hate hard sales. It's one of the most annoying things in the world. My grandfather was in sales, and did incredibly well. He did well because he was a genuine, nice, popular person, not from some tactical bullshit.

It's everything that's wrong with martial arts but also sort of this entire society. I don't know if people are getting faker before my eyes, or my vision and capacity for BS is diminishing. Probably both.

But I'm just shocked that Rener is getting all this support. The medium is the message, and in that case the message is self serving, conniving, manipulative, and pushy. Dishonest, in a word.

So a guy that everyone knows is dishonest and self serving testifies, and all these people believe him? It's bizarre.

Shockingly, not a PEEP about Clark other than the fact that he testified for the defense. What did he say? He's not such a self promoter.

Oh well, what do I fucking care anyway? Sad the dude got his shit snapped. Hopefully this helps prevent such accidents in the future.

But I could also see it closing down gyms, which would cause more harm than good. C'est la vie.

 

[winterbike]

That would be illegal and you'd be immediately disqualified for violating safety rule. Thanks for bringing up a perfect example.

Yeah the rule is a year old, because judokas were diving head first all the time. It's not a safe sport. Wrestling is much safer.

 

[Matsukaze]

Didn't Clark Gracie testify to this as well?? Why is Clark not getting any love ?

 

[shunyata]

I've sat with this for a while after reading the initial report. Turns out, as we've all read, there is a bit more to this than the initial reports indicated.

My first thought, is that I am a black belt and I very well could have done the roll the same way, with the same result. Thers is this assumption by the general public that black belt means you are an expert in all facets of the art, which is of course ridiculous. I've trained going on 15 years, I have a black belt, I'm a successful competitor and teacher, and I am still learning and refining things every single time I train. Being a black belt, being an instructor, being a school owner, those things don't mean you know every thing about every position. I think that this is the undlerying issue that I have with some of what Rener was saying. Setting up a precedent for jiu jitsu black belts to be encyclopedias of every and all technique is laughable.

I don't use that back take often, in part because I'm not super familiar with it and I have other attacks. When I do it, my cues are to put my legs on the other side of the body from my head, and to use my shoulder to push the head in. With those cues, I think I could possibly do the move and have the same result. I only do it from seat belt, so I guess I don't trap the posting arm. But the point is still the same.

I do think that I have a mind toward safety more than lesser experienced practioners and this is a reasonable expection of a so called expert in the art. I release chokes and locks and withdraw from positions that I feel might be damaging to my partner. But I think there are just too many variables involved in the day to day training of live combat to control.


An added thought, is that I'm ok with the lawsuit and settlement, and I might have even encouraged it if I were the school owner. Thinking about it from my own perspective, if I were rolling with a guy and he was paralyzed while I did a move, I would probably want to do what I could to help him out. I'm working off of some assumptions here, but I'm guessing that he sued the school and instructor, insurance got involved, and insurance is ultimately the one fought it and took it to trial instead of settling.

I mean, if I paralyzed a guy and he wanted to sue my insurance company, I'd probably be all for it. That's what it's there for, hopefully it can alleviate his losses. I wouldn't expect it to be a 46 million dollar sum, but I don't think I'd hold it against him. Maybe that means I lose my school, but so be it I guess.

There are some things in life, where everyone is going to come out with mud on them, and I think this is one of them. Except Rener. His reputation might take a hit, but I think ultimately he comes out pretty ok here. He sets up his bullshit program as the standard for jiu jitsu, he makes 100k, he gets press (which as the saying goes, good or bad, it's still press). I haven't watched his video because I cannot stomach to hear him talk, but I've read recaps and there is some validity in his points, but I think it's disingenous and self serving for him to call this negligence.

Initial reports where that the guy was spiked on his head with the body weight of his opponent added. This kind of description certainly seems like it would be negligent. What happened wasn't that.

There's alot to process here, and I think I'm still processing my thoughts on it, but that's a good taste of where I'm at.

I'm in a similar place. Sinistro could have taken the back in a safer way that doesn't leave the student the ability to get hurt by zigging when he should have zagged. In the current US system, the student is right to sue and essentially HAS to sue to pay for his healthcare.

Rener could have argued for the student from a technical standpoint, but instead we now have established testimony in court documents that is frankly incorrect and could hold the entire community liable to an unrealistic standard. Specifically it is now in court documents that Rener claims it is standard to have the entirety of BJJ written into a written curriculum, that it is standard to have written documentation of exactly what techniques each student in your gym has been taught, and that it is standard that beginners are kept away from advanced practitioners for their own safety.

It's great if your school or association does have a written curriculum, but not all of them do.

If your school or association is actually keeping records of what techniques each and every student has been instructed in, that's interesting but I've never heard of any BJJ school other than Rener's doing that type and level of documentation. He straight up lied when claiming this was a standard.

Anyone who's been around grappling or BJJ for a while knows that beginners are more likely to injure themselves sparring / rolling with other beginners than working with a more advanced practitioner. It's true that larger schools offer beginner classes if they have the turn out and time for it, but it's completely false that beginners are prevented from training with advanced practitioners for their own safety. The exact opposite is true, beginners are often paired with intermediate or advanced practitioners when possible in mixed level classes because it's safer and they learn faster than if they were to be paired with other beginners only for live training.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I'm in a similar place. Sinistro could have taken the back in a safer way that doesn't leave the student the ability to get hurt by zigging when he should have zagged. In the current US system, the student is right to sue and essentially HAS to sue to pay for his healthcare.

Rener could have argued for the student from a technical standpoint, but instead we now have established testimony in court documents that is frankly incorrect and could hold the entire community liable to an unrealistic standard. Specifically it is now in court documents that Rener claims it is standard to have the entirety of BJJ written into a written curriculum, that it is standard to have written documentation of exactly what techniques each student in your gym has been taught, and that it is standard that beginners are kept away from advanced practitioners for their own safety.

It's great if your school or association does have a written curriculum, but not all of them do.

If your school or association is actually keeping records of what techniques each and every student has been instructed in, that's interesting but I've never heard of any BJJ school other than Rener's doing that type and level of documentation. He straight up lied when claiming this was a standard.

Anyone who's been around grappling or BJJ for a while knows that beginners are more likely to injure themselves sparring / rolling with other beginners than working with a more advanced practitioner. It's true that larger schools offer beginner classes if they have the turn out and time for it, but it's completely false that beginners are prevented from training with advanced practitioners for their own safety. The exact opposite is true, beginners are often paired with intermediate or advanced practitioners when possible in mixed level classes because it's safer and they learn faster than if they were to be paired with other beginners only for live training.

What makes this even more ridiculous is Rener being the guy who gave out online blue belts until the BJJ community called him out. He's also said he believes folks with prior wrestling or years of training in another grappling style (which plaintiff has) should be "given a blue belt when they walk in the door. It all evens out at purple." Plaintiff easily had the experience to be blue under Rener's system including live rolling and competition experience. Despite mixed feelings about Rener's exaggerations and self-promotion, I've always thought he was overall good for the sport. But this is making me question that.

He does have somewhat of a point about trapping the arm with a bodylock and I suppose I can see that being more risky. But framing it as the dreaded and taboo "front flip backtake" taught to only the most elite competitors is utter bullshit. In the heat of a scramble, anyone could be forgiven for doing it that way without thinking it's inherently dangerous. I've certainly never seen it forbidden at any school and I have about 15 years across wrestling, Judo and BJJ. Body lock turns like that are pretty common in Judo and the international wrestling styles.

 

[ooitzoo]

What makes this even more ridiculous is Rener being the guy who gave out online blue belts until the BJJ community called him out. He's also said he believes folks with prior wrestling or years of training in another grappling style (which plaintiff has) should be "given a blue belt when they walk in the door. It all evens out at purple." Plaintiff easily had the experience to be blue under Rener's system including live rolling and competition experience. Despite mixed feelings about Rener's exaggerations and self-promotion, I've always thought he was overall good for the sport. But this is making me question that.

He does have somewhat of a point about trapping the arm with a bodylock and I suppose I can see that being more risky. But framing it as the dreaded and taboo "front flip backtake" taught to only the most elite competitors is utter bullshit. In the heat of a scramble, anyone could be forgiven for doing it that way without thinking it's inherently dangerous. I've certainly never seen it forbidden at any school and I have about 15 years across wrestling, Judo and BJJ. Body lock turns like that are pretty common in Judo and the international wrestling styles.

Come on man. Is this the first time someone with the Gracie last name engaged in some outright bullshit for personal gain? [cough sneeze cough] Whorian

 

[mattemate]

I'm in a similar place. Sinistro could have taken the back in a safer way that doesn't leave the student the ability to get hurt by zigging when he should have zagged. In the current US system, the student is right to sue and essentially HAS to sue to pay for his healthcare.

Rener could have argued for the student from a technical standpoint, but instead we now have established testimony in court documents that is frankly incorrect and could hold the entire community liable to an unrealistic standard. Specifically it is now in court documents that Rener claims it is standard to have the entirety of BJJ written into a written curriculum, that it is standard to have written documentation of exactly what techniques each student in your gym has been taught, and that it is standard that beginners are kept away from advanced practitioners for their own safety.

It's great if your school or association does have a written curriculum, but not all of them do.

If your school or association is actually keeping records of what techniques each and every student has been instructed in, that's interesting but I've never heard of any BJJ school other than Rener's doing that type and level of documentation. He straight up lied when claiming this was a standard.

Anyone who's been around grappling or BJJ for a while knows that beginners are more likely to injure themselves sparring / rolling with other beginners than working with a more advanced practitioner. It's true that larger schools offer beginner classes if they have the turn out and time for it, but it's completely false that beginners are prevented from training with advanced practitioners for their own safety. The exact opposite is true, beginners are often paired with intermediate or advanced practitioners when possible in mixed level classes because it's safer and they learn faster than if they were to be paired with other beginners only for live training.

Excellent post.
Rener is a complete shit stain.
He and Ralek are such scumbag.

Ryron is OK.


It would be great if Rener paid all the people that got stiffed by Metamoris.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Come on man. Is this the first time someone with the Gracie last name engaged in some outright bullshit for personal gain? [cough sneeze cough] Whorian

Sure but this is a new low. Before now it was just self-promotion and marketing. 72 lbs Helio born without testicles achieving moral victory over 800 lbs Kimura who was 20 years younger, who after being humiliated, offered his daughter's hand in marriage and agreed to suck a cane field of dicks in repentance. That totally could have happened.

This is Rener seemingly lying under oath as an expert witness, in order to sue another man out of existence.

On balance, we still don't know the real story. Just as the article misrepresented things, we've only seen excerpts of Rener's deposition and we don't know if that was admitted as part of the trial or what Rener actually said during it. It seems likely his position was the same given he seems to own it in his video.

But for those who don't know, deposition is sworn testimony taken during discovery before a trial. There is no judge present and opposing counsel is allowed to grill you for 8 hours total (depending on state) with court reporter recording everything and video camera and spot light in your face. Your counsel is sitting across from you but opposing counsel can ask you anything and your counsel can't stop it. He can only say "objection" which gets noted but you still have to answer and a judge decides later upon review if that question was above table or not.

Being deposed is a miserable experience. You have opposing counsel getting in your face, throwing email printouts at you, playing phone calls, showing videos and asking you all kinds of random shit in rapid succession over the course of 8 hours and the whole time he's intentionally trying to mog you and trip you up to change your story and make you misrepresent what happened to help his case. It's not clear where Rener's excerpt fits into the entire deposition or if it was a reactionary answer to a question that was thrown out.

 

[shunyata]

Come on man. Is this the first time someone with the Gracie last name engaged in some outright bullshit for personal gain? [cough sneeze cough] Whorian

Might be the first time the bullshit set a US legal precedent, that's the long term problem.

 

[ooitzoo]

Sure but this is a new low. Before now it was just self-promotion and marketing. 72 lbs Helio born without testicles achieving moral victory over 800 lbs Kimura who was 20 years younger, who after being humiliated, offered his daughter's hand in marriage and agreed to suck a cane field of dicks in repentance. That totally could have happened.

This is Rener seemingly lying under oath as an expert witness, in order to sue another man out of existence.

On balance, we still don't know the real story. Just as the article misrepresented things, we've only seen excerpts of Rener's deposition and we don't know if that was admitted as part of the trial or what Rener actually said during it. It seems likely his position was the same given he seems to own it in his video.

But for those who don't know, deposition is sworn testimony taken during discovery before a trial. There is no judge present and opposing counsel is allowed to grill you for 8 hours total (depending on state) with court reporter recording everything and video camera and spot light in your face. Your counsel is sitting across from you but opposing counsel can ask you anything and your counsel can't stop it. He can only say "objection" which gets noted but you still have to answer and a judge decides later upon review if that question was above table or not.

Being deposed is a miserable experience. You have opposing counsel getting in your face, throwing email printouts at you, playing phone calls, showing videos and asking you all kinds of random shit in rapid succession over the course of 8 hours and the whole time he's intentionally trying to mog you and trip you up to change your story and make you misrepresent what happened to help his case. It's not clear where Rener's excerpt fits into the entire deposition or if it was a reactionary answer to a question that was thrown out.

I hate to defend Rener but how do you know he's lying. Expert witnesses are there to provide their expert OPINION. Effectively, unless they misrepresent themselves, they cannot "lie" as it were.

Rener is being paid as an expert so he's providing his opinion on the matter. In any court proceeding, someone can be "sued out of existence". Does that mean EVERY expert witness is a lowlife scumbag?

Further, no one is being "sued out of existence". Unless the gym owner was completely insane or super-trusting, he's incorporated and insured. Sure, his gym is fucked and the ins. company will have to pay out the max allowed by the policy but, as an individual, he's fine. He can go open another gym and/or teach. Now, his reputation is pretty fucking tarnished though that would happen with or without Reners testimony.

Agreed, getting deposed does suck. At least in NY, your counsel can interject and it can be noted for the record that opp counsel are being outwardly aggressive.

Might be the first time the bullshit set a US legal precedent, that's the long term problem.

Jury verdicts are NOT legal precedent. Moreover, even if it were a precedent (and its now), it'd only apply in CA.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I hate to defend Rener but how do you know he's lying. Expert witnesses are there to provide their expert OPINION. Effectively, unless they misrepresent themselves, they cannot "lie" as it were.

Rener is being paid as an expert so he's providing his opinion on the matter. In any court proceeding, someone can be "sued out of existence". Does that mean EVERY expert witness is a lowlife scumbag?

Further, no one is being "sued out of existence". Unless the gym owner was completely insane or super-trusting, he's incorporated and insured. Sure, his gym is fucked and the ins. company will have to pay out the max allowed by the policy but, as an individual, he's fine. He can go open another gym and/or teach. Now, his reputation is pretty fucking tarnished though that would happen with or without Reners testimony.

Agreed, getting deposed does suck. At least in NY, your counsel can interject and it can be noted for the record that opp counsel are being outwardly aggressive.

Come on man. Anyone who has grappled more than a few years knows that Rener is mischaracterizing the experience level of the plaintiff, uniformity of the BJJ belt system, training norms across gyms, cut and dried nature of specific grappling positions (there is none) and the extent of the universally acknowledged danger (WTF) of the dreaded "front flip backtake." If he truly believes this, he is no expert of BJJ, only a master of evil.

To say nothing of the blatant conflict of interest. Rener is pitching himself as the white knight. All those crazy unsafe gyms full of renegade BJJ thugs need to take a lesson from this. Come to my gym where you'll be treated with kid gloves and not allowed to roll for 6 months. Safety first. I take care of my kids.

 

[ooitzoo]

Come on man. Anyone who has grappled more than a few years knows that Rener is mischaracterizing the experience level of the plaintiff, uniformity of the BJJ belt system, training norms across gyms, cut and dried nature of specific grappling positions (there is none) and the extent of the universally acknowledged danger (WTF) of the dreaded "front flip backtake." If he truly believes this, he is no expert of BJJ, only a master of evil.

To say nothing of the blatant conflict of interest. Rener is pitching himself as the white knight. All those crazy unsafe gyms full of renegade BJJ thugs need to take a lesson from this. Come to my gym where you'll be treated with kid gloves and not allowed to roll for 6 months. Safety first. I take care of my kids.

Oh, I agree that Rener is a lowlife. My point isn't that Rener is some sort of paragon of virtue. My point, in response to your post, was that Rener, in his capacity as an "expert", cannot lie (notwithstanding certain situations). That's all.

As far as pitching himself as a white knight; I mean, yeah. Its pretty common for "experts" to say something like "we don't do that because [whatever problem] we do [something else that's strongly implied to be better]". Otherwise, the witness loses credibility.

 

[shunyata]

I hate to defend Rener but how do you know he's lying. Expert witnesses are there to provide their expert OPINION. Effectively, unless they misrepresent themselves, they cannot "lie" as it were.

Rener is being paid as an expert so he's providing his opinion on the matter. In any court proceeding, someone can be "sued out of existence". Does that mean EVERY expert witness is a lowlife scumbag?

Further, no one is being "sued out of existence". Unless the gym owner was completely insane or super-trusting, he's incorporated and insured. Sure, his gym is fucked and the ins. company will have to pay out the max allowed by the policy but, as an individual, he's fine. He can go open another gym and/or teach. Now, his reputation is pretty fucking tarnished though that would happen with or without Reners testimony.

Agreed, getting deposed does suck. At least in NY, your counsel can interject and it can be noted for the record that opp counsel are being outwardly aggressive.



Jury verdicts are NOT legal precedent. Moreover, even if it were a precedent (and its now), it'd only apply in CA.

Forgive my language, not a lawyer. The point being others in the future could cite this case in a different suit.

 

[ooitzoo]

Forgive my language, not a lawyer. The point being others in the future could cite this case in a different suit.

You can cite anything you like but a jury verdict isn't "citable". Its simply a thing that happened. The reason you cite things is to get certain treatment that's preferable to your case (e.g., certain evidence). An example would be a judge allowing a type of evidence to be presented vs. not based on some criteria not otherwise found in the law itself.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Oh, I agree that Rener is a lowlife. My point isn't that Rener is some sort of paragon of virtue. My point, in response to your post, was that Rener, in his capacity as an "expert", cannot lie (notwithstanding certain situations). That's all.

As far as pitching himself as a white knight; I mean, yeah. Its pretty common for "experts" to say something like "we don't do that because [whatever problem] we do [something else that's strongly implied to be better]". Otherwise, the witness loses credibility.

OK fair enough. I'm with you. But let me ask you this: 1) Do you think Rener's deposition quotes accurately portray common practices and norms across the BJJ industry? and 2) Do you think he actually believes these are standard practices at other gyms, in particular the gym where plaintiff was injured? Shit, do you think these are even uniformly enforced practices at HIS gym?